Today I Got Into a Huge Debate with an AnCap

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wbhyatt
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Dec 8 2011 07:33
Today I Got Into a Huge Debate with an AnCap

Admin: moved to theory forum

Basically we argued for a few hours then he stopped responding... he said socialism doesn't mix with anarchy and also noted that Murray Rothbard was one of his influences... I feel like Anarcho-Capitalists are tainting everything Anarchy is about.. I laughed at most of what he said. How many AnCaps are out there, because I'm seen quite a few recently...

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Railyon
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Dec 8 2011 08:50

I have yet to encounter one, though one of my affiliates (with whom I am in the same hobby club, nothing more) is a libertarian.

We avoid talking politics though because that would just annoy our other club guys.

I've never spoken to one on the net either, though I have written some stuff criticizing them.

End of the line is, AnCaps have no fucking idea about socialism beyond their "aggression against private property" shit (especially propagated by Hayek, Mises, Friedman, well basically all of them).

Guess that's their Natural Laws for you...

wbhyatt
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Dec 8 2011 09:14

i tried telling him that when one claims property, he limits the freedom for others to use that property when its not in use and he said "i don't want anyway to tell me how much i can or can't take." then i said "property" is merely an illusion, not something given at birth. then he started saying some really ignorant things..

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Railyon
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Dec 8 2011 14:47

The very concept of private property is something that had to be violently enforced throughout history before it became a "Natural Law". That should tell you a lot about it - not a natural state of things, but "man made".

The "I don't want anyone to tell me how much I can or can't take" is a bit of a contradiction though - it's called a market. You can only take if you got the money. And that's where the hypocrisy lies.

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Tojiah
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Dec 8 2011 15:31
wbhyatt wrote:
i tried telling him that when one claims property, he limits the freedom for others to use that property when its not in use and he said "i don't want anyway to tell me how much i can or can't take." then i said "property" is merely an illusion, not something given at birth. then he started saying some really ignorant things..

"Illusion" isn't quite it. It's a social relation. Strangely enough I had a similar argument recently with someone who's either a (US-type) libertarian or AnCap over this exact point. It was really hard for him to understand that the only thing that makes something that he claims "his" is social convention, and the enforcement of that convention by force if necessary.

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Picket
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Dec 8 2011 15:34
Tojiah wrote:
Strangely enough I had a similar argument recently with someone who's either a (US-type) libertarian or AnCap over this exact point. It was really hard for him to understand that the only thing that makes something that he claims "his" is social convention, and the enforcement of that convention by force if necessary.

Did he get it in the end though?

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Tojiah
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Dec 8 2011 16:25
Pikel wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Strangely enough I had a similar argument recently with someone who's either a (US-type) libertarian or AnCap over this exact point. It was really hard for him to understand that the only thing that makes something that he claims "his" is social convention, and the enforcement of that convention by force if necessary.

Did he get it in the end though?

Nope, somebody else took over the conversation over some pedantic point raised previously. They then got them back on that point, but there was no getting through to that idiot's thick skull.

wbhyatt
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Dec 8 2011 21:50

yeah it's pretty damn frustrating. like i don't disrespect them or their school of thought. i just think their thinking is incredibly flawed

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Tojiah
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Dec 8 2011 22:12

Why is their school of thought deserving of respect?

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Railyon
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Dec 8 2011 22:34

I agree with Tojiah, if you're anti-capitalist there is no reason not to disrespect them.

Here's a good article on the inherent contradictions of AnCap:
http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/an-anarchist-critique-of-anarcho-statism

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Picket
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Dec 9 2011 00:48

[self-deleted rubbish.]

wbhyatt
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Dec 9 2011 01:31

i mean, i've always tried to understand what they were saying, and i think it would be "okay" if they didn't call themselves "Anarchists." But I agree, they simply are not Anarchists

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Lumpen
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Dec 9 2011 07:55

We've had this young anarcho-capitalist fellow turn up to a couple of meetings recently telling us to mine gold and "head inland with your family" in the case of severe environmental collapse. I was surprised how much he was tolerated.

When pushed, they think they're anarchist because they want small-scale production and decentralised fiefdoms, which don't actually have much to do with the broader anarchist tradition. Maybe they get it from Proudhon? Anyway, Proudhon wasn't an anarchist. Pretty much in the same league as primitivists, IMHO. It's worth challenging them on the idea that they are anarchists, but not really worth putting a lot of effort into, as they're such a weirdo minority (err, not like the rest of us).

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Railyon
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Dec 9 2011 13:28
wbhyatt wrote:
i mean, i've always tried to understand what they were saying, and i think it would be "okay" if they didn't call themselves "Anarchists." But I agree, they simply are not Anarchists

Well, before becoming a commie I thought Keynesians were cool.

Turns out they're closet fascists.

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Dec 9 2011 16:19
Lumpen wrote:
We've had this young anarcho-capitalist fellow turn up to a couple of meetings recently telling us to mine gold and "head inland with your family" in the case of severe environmental collapse. I was surprised how much he was tolerated.

When pushed, they think they're anarchist because they want small-scale production and decentralised fiefdoms, which don't actually have much to do with the broader anarchist tradition. Maybe they get it from Proudhon? Anyway, Proudhon wasn't an anarchist. Pretty much in the same league as primitivists, IMHO. It's worth challenging them on the idea that they are anarchists, but not really worth putting a lot of effort into, as they're such a weirdo minority (err, not like the rest of us).

I would argue that these nut jobs haven't even read Proudhon. They use the term anarchism abstract from any socio-political movements. For them it is just an etymology

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Picket
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Dec 9 2011 16:33

I actually used to side with anarcho capitalism / US-style libertarianism embarrassed for about a week, during which I came to realise it was a contradiction. At least I can say "been there, done that, won't be going back". I think their hearts are in the right place but there's nothing between their ears.

libcom is like a confessional for me sometimes. Please forgive me!

petey
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Dec 9 2011 17:00
Pikel wrote:
libcom is like a confessional for me sometimes. Please forgive me!

that's ok, i came here from right-libertarianism too. when i realized that pulling govt support for corporations (in its many guises) wouldn't cause the redistribution of concentrations of capital, i came over.
in an american context though ancaps (and a few other groups like 'old conservatives') are people who are on the right but who think that bush, gingrich, in fact the whole republican party are anuses and hypocrites. so that's satisfying to watch.

wbhyatt
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Dec 10 2011 05:17

yeah the republicans are the biggest joke haha. if you guys had to vote who would it be for? i'd probably go green myself. but i mean i'm 18.. so i haven't voted yet. and in the anarchist tradition I shall not

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Railyon
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Dec 10 2011 11:10

In the last elections I've always voted Socialists in the delusion of Realpolitik pragmatism... now I don't even go anymore.

Thinking of setting up an anti-vote campaign come next election, though I don't know whether that would have any value...

wojtek
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Dec 10 2011 11:59
Quote:
Railyon wrote:
Well, before becoming a commie I thought Keynesians were cool.

Turns out they're closet fascists.

Sorry, I don't get it man...?

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Railyon
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Dec 10 2011 12:40
wojtek wrote:
Sorry, I don't get it man...?

Well, if we see fascism as the amalgamation of state and corporate power, Keynesians are kind of like...well, I'll quote Wikipedia on that because I'm too lazy right now
Keynesian economics argues that private sector decisions sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes and, therefore, advocates active policy responses by the public sector, including monetary policy actions by the central bank and fiscal policy actions by the government to stabilize output over the business cycle.

It's not far-fetched, from a communist perspective, that this is a precursor to a "third way" that fascists endorse.

First hand experience tells me that Keynesians are not as positive about the "invisible hand" of free markets as this quote may make it seem, quite a lot of them are pessimists on that account, so again, not much of a stretch.

Some, especially on the laissez-faire side, argue Keynesianism is "socialism light". Which is, of course, bollocks.

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Dec 10 2011 13:11
Railyon wrote:
In the last elections I've always voted Socialists in the delusion of Realpolitik pragmatism... now I don't even go anymore.

Thinking of setting up an anti-vote campaign come next election, though I don't know whether that would have any value...

hohohohoho ! SPD? Buuuuuurn!

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Railyon
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Dec 10 2011 16:14
Arbeiten wrote:
hohohohoho ! SPD? Buuuuuurn!

SPD? Socialists?

They abandoned their socialists roots after WWII (or even before that?)... now they're in favor of "social market economy". They're "centre left" which is complete BS, they're kind of like the Labour Party in the UK.

By socialists, I mean Die Linke. Yeah, the guys who are defending the GDR.

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Soapy
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Dec 10 2011 16:59

Oh god, don't even get me started on ancaps. There's one in the students for justice in palestine group I'm in. She endlessly complains about our active participation in the occupy movement. I told her that anarchism was created as an anti-capitalist ideology and she responded by telling me something like "the meaning of words have always changed".

What a load of crap. Words that have an historical context can't just suddenly mean the complete opposite of their original definition just because that mass murdering asshole Murray Rothbard says they should.

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Railyon
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Dec 10 2011 17:03

Well, she's right in saying meaning changes; that does not automatically make AnCaps anarchists though.

Quote:
Words that have an historical context can't just suddenly mean the complete opposite of their original definition just because that mass murdering asshole Murray Rothbard says they should.

I'm just thinking of the USSR here... now we're "stuck" with socialism "meaning" Gulags and empty stores.

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Dec 10 2011 17:13
Railyon wrote:
I'm just thinking of the USSR here... now we're "stuck" with socialism "meaning" Gulags and empty stores.

Well that's what I'm saying, socialism still should not mean gulags and empty stores just because of massive propaganda attempts to brand it as meaning that

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Dec 10 2011 19:27
Soapy wrote:
Railyon wrote:
I'm just thinking of the USSR here... now we're "stuck" with socialism "meaning" Gulags and empty stores.

Well that's what I'm saying, socialism still should not mean gulags and empty stores just because of massive propaganda attempts to brand it as meaning that

It's not just propaganda attempts, it's organizations, parties, governments who thought they were doing socialism and did these things, instead.

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Tojiah
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Dec 10 2011 19:33

Double post

Ya_Pasta
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Dec 10 2011 20:37

Whether or not ancaps should refer to themselves anarchists or not is the least important issue. It's a valid issue, but not as important as challenging the many contradictions of their ideology.

bastarx
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Dec 11 2011 08:03
Soapy wrote:
Oh god, don't even get me started on ancaps. There's one in the students for justice in palestine group I'm in. She endlessly complains about our active participation in the occupy movement. I told her that anarchism was created as an anti-capitalist ideology and she responded by telling me something like "the meaning of words have always changed".

What a load of crap. Words that have an historical context can't just suddenly mean the complete opposite of their original definition just because that mass murdering asshole Murray Rothbard says they should.

Who did Rothbard murder?

wbhyatt
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Dec 11 2011 10:19
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Who did Rothbard murder?

The damn English language, just as the word Libertarian has been stolen from us

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