NEFAC and "rise"

rise:

Where did you see this?

It's been referenced in this thread and in eisting theads, that apparently they were expelled or denied admittance to the IWA. I prefaced the comment with "apparently" as I haven't seen solid confirmation.

Brother, I think you're factually incorrect.

It's my general understanding from reading some of the internal IWA circulars is that they are no longer in the IWA for other reasons. The reasons are more internal and not, from my understanding, based on your assertion.

If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. But I would hope that comrades will base their positions on documented facts and not heresay.

if you can't tell the difference between anarcho syndicalism and the likes of the GMB, Unison or Teamsters you have problems, ye right cunt ye!

do you have to try to sound like a stereotypical english working class thug.

which you are most certainly not i believe either english, working class or a thug.

Oh, what a shame! I thought you at least liked us Québec members right? But, really what is the Organise! program? Who are you Organise!ing?

Has your activity evolved beyond putting up a few anti-nationalist posters in West-Belfast? Or Organise!ing unnattended speaking events?

I hear you even have a hard time putting out publications...pathetic. Absolutely pathetic...and this crappy forum is your last bastion of political activity. So go on and attack us platformist cunts, we're the only political target you seem capable of reaching.

petit criss de mangeux de marde

They lost their Friends status because IWA Latina American comrades found their politics to be crap, and found it impossible to cooperate with them. That is it in short I guess. That doesn't mean that they are CIA agents, or anything of that sort. Though some of their positions are clearly reactionary and trash, it is also clear that they are not homogeneous in a sense that would allow easy total rejection. Not saying that that shouldn't be done eventually. I'm just reluctant to present that kind of opinion, in the situation in which new dictatorship is rising there.

...and being the good internationalists that we are our hateful cuntishness comes in two language varieties!

North Eastern Federation of Anarchist Cunts

So does your opinion of them as a whole agree or disagree with Rise's opinions? I mean are they viewed as having reactionary positions (because thats what he says regardless of his hyperbole and others mischarcterizations)?

is "marde" quebecois for "merde"? hilarious. tabernacle.

yeah. emphasis on the a. mArde. like Ostie de mArde or tAbArnAc. the emphasis on the vowel is important, it adds to the insult.

Yes. This is why our union, and eventually the IWA voted for the end of their Friends status. But the problem here, as far as I can see, are rise's "hyperbole and others mischarcterizations", and not his opinion on CRA politics. Accusing somebody of working for CIA is a very dangerous thing (especially when you have, temporary anti-CIA orientated, dictator rising there), and, as I said, I wouldn't be doing that without some solid proof, without caring on how reactionary I find some of CRA politics to be. In that way you could say that Chuck0 and whole Anarchy editorial board are working for Bush directly. That is just not the fact. They are political idiots, but they are not directly working for the government. And we need to make that kind of difference, if we want our analyzes to have some weight.

Sure, but really what it seems that he was saying is that their reactionary positions are as bad as those sponsored by the US state, not that they actually are linked to the US state. I'm really using ChuckO as a foil here. He often says similar things. I find it to be as dangerous as you do, but I don't think it would cause me to actually call for his exclusion from organizations he's a part of. For me the problem here isn't that Oliver has a hard on to take Rise to task for injudicious wording, but rather that he's blowing things so out of proportion and directly linking the random individual's opinion stated to others.

Its clear Rise isn't the only one who has problems with CRA's politics and praxis, its clear that he's admitted being over the top in some of his criticism, its clear ChuckO's a fucknut... but its just as clear that Olivers attempt to get Rise blacklisted among anarchist groups is beyond a political argument and is much more of a personal beef.

Come on, he named a thread: "The CRA/El Libertario in Venezuela as black propaganda for the US State Department". I saw on another thread (or maybe, this one) that he stands behind everything he wrote on the forum. If that is so, than...

It depends on the nature and role of the organization he is member of. I don't think Chuck0 would be a member of our union with anti-workers sentiments he is promoting on his site (even if I believe that because of his big head he doesn't understand that he is doing that). In fact we got one clone of his here, he is making a clone site of similar nature. I guess every state has one, or more of those. But not everywhere these people get legitimacy for their idiotic politics from revolutionary organizations.

I wouldn't know about that. What I know from personal experiance is that very often harsh political differences are discarded by the ones who can not stand behind their own positions as "personal animosities". I don't know if that is the situation here, but I have to say that I am very sceptical when I hear that kind of explanation.

We don't have "affiliates."

Three, and we're in discussions about giving a much better go at an english-language paper. But Cause Commune seems to be going well...

chucko is a full fledged voting member of the IWW.
rise is a supporter with no voting rights in nefac or any member collective

NEFAC has no formal procudure to censure or expel a member, much less a supporter
IWW has a formal charges process

oliver is not a member and has no voting rights in NEFAC
oliver is a member of the IWW with full voting rights

any member of the iww can bring charges against another member
oliver has not done so.

no none member of NEFAC can say who is or isn't a supporter or member of NEFAC
oliver has attempt to do so.

who should oliver be going after?

I'm from Québec. We've produced 14 issues of Cause Commune and 7 issues of our magazine Ruptures. Before that roughly 25 issues of Le Trouble (alongside other local class-struggle anarchists).

So 46 issues of papers and magazines in 7 years. That's roughly 7/year or about every 2 months.

That's what you get when you're serious about your politics and your organization.

Oliver, what the fuck? If you are going to attack at least quote me accurately.
What I actually said was

Okay, first off, this is in the context of arguing that not everyone who adopts the anarchist label should receive uncritical support. Do you disagree with this? Are you satisfied with the state of the US anarchist movement? Do you think the majority of the people who call themselves anarchists share either of our politics in any meaningful way? Or is this just about making snide comments and misquoting people to win points in an argument?

Here's a quote from Rise(which I posted already) that answers your questions, though you ignored it because it didn't fit the NEFAC attacks.

So first rise says that he doesn't in any way believe CRA gets US money. Then he states that in his view the position of the working class movement is not the same as that of Chavez, and that he's arguing for supporting the former, and so not supporting Chavez. You can disagree with this, but at least argue with what he's saying, as opposed to the absurd strawman cartoon version.

His rhetoric is over the top. He shouldn't have written a stupid provocative title like that. But he has already stated it isn't what he thinks. You've made a habit in this thread of absurdly misquoting people to give your argument validity. Most people won't seriously argue with you when you pull bullshit like this, and I'm honestly wondering why I'm wasting my time trying.

seriously did you just try and say that if your serious about politics and organizing you can put out a newspaper every two months?

How about the ability to mobilize 10,000 workers at a moments notice. How about 1,000? Shit how about 100?

Well, seriously, i can grasp that NEFAC is a small political organization that doesn't have the same mobilizing capacities as unions or other social organizations. I've been in movements numbering the tens of thousands and even the hundreds of thousands. NEFAC, as an organization, has been a small part of these movements as well, at least assuring that anarchists care and are apart of working class struggles.

And for the record, yes i think by the standards of contemporary anarchism (and by extension the rev. left) putting out a publication every 2 months is pretty decent.

I think you equate, without any nuance whatsoever, that organizing alone within the ranks of Change to Win type unions will lead to revolutionnary perspectives. My experience in social movements tends to make me think that there are more roles to be played and a battle of ideas to be won while we are mobilizing and struggling.

That's why I believe in the need for both broad-based social organizations (like unions) and political organizations.

Gee Oliver, in light of what Rata has said, maybe you should go after teh IWA for kicking out the CRA for their shitty, reactionary politics.

Regardless, you look like an ass, yet again. bravo, and have fun supporting reactionaries.

saying people have shit politics and saying they are in the service of the US state department are two different things, I think the WSM's take on Northern Ireland was shit but I wouldn't claim they are state agents or in the pay of the IRA.

Yeah, rise, but rata and the people in the IWA aren't criticising the CRA for not supporting Chavez. Rata there referred to him above twice as a dictator-in-the-making, something the CRA also wrote about (his centralisation of power) and you attacked them for.

Says the guy who sees stalinism in every political disagreement?

This thread is just like Kronstadt!

Rise: The Butcher of Myspace