What movement?
New Zine - Thoughts and Comments?
Granted there are issues about the word 'movement' but think it is more inclusive than 'scene'... other possibilities?
We did approach solFed for an article but they didn't get back to us unfortunately, it is noted as an 'obvious omission' in the editorial and we hope to get something from them in further issues.
Regarding animal liberation, I know this is a thorny and contentious issue however we felt that there are sufficient people for whom the issues are intertwined to justify its inclusion. Whether we like it or not 'anarchism' is a broad church, hence the prevalence of prefix's and suffix's to describe specific positions. For many self-described anarchists their social politics leads them into environmental activism and visa versa and this link (seen in EF!, Climate Camp etc) isn't something we can easily deny.
Having said that we don't want to take a stand being pro-animal rights or anti-, we merely want to hear from anarchists from many different perspectives for as we probably all know it is very easy to get caught in our physical or ideological 'ghetto'.
Thanks for the feedback!
I Would be completely opposed to use of the word 'scene', what I mean is what movement are you referring to exactly? Observing british libertarian politics from the outside there doesn't seem to actually be one? Anarchism is not a "broad church", moralistic activism is.
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"I think that in the face of state authoritarianism (ID cards, the Serious Organized Crime and Police Act, etc) and state aggression (Iraq, Afghanistan, possibly Iran) there is an overwhelmingcase for nonviolent civil disobedience that holds no capacity for, or threat of, harm to human beings.
Yuck.
Some good stuff there. Af appears twice 8)
I like the idea of a bit of personal recollections zine, not too serious but something which gives people a bit of identity (stop laughing everyone) and a sense of continuity - but this isn't actually that. This is a bunch of articles by disparate groups who aren't really related, and the articles are political, meaning that you should have gone for a more political format to start with. The common ground one is an ongoing social struggle, as are the ID cards one, thats not really the same as somebody relating how they got into the treesitting scene in the 90's.
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Anarchists and Eco Activists are increasingly finding common cause in resisting the causes of environmental destruction. This movement is something that those involved in Animal Rights need to join as it is becoming impossible to separate what is ethical from what is sustainable.Matt talks about the importance of Veganism, working under a unified banner and integrating Anarchism, Animal Rights and Eco Action.
'over my dead body' i believe the saying is 
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Do you not think a better way of escaping this "ideological ghetto" as you put it, might be took look outside the anarchist scene/movement (although to me it's neither), at trends in the class struggle itself for example?
Definitely but that isn't the main aim of the project, all I was saying is that I think it is helpful for anarchists to hear what other anarchists (even if they are quite different ideologically) are saying and for those that don't wanna listen... well they don't have to.
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I Would be completely opposed to use of the word 'scene', what I mean is what movement are you referring to exactly? Observing british libertarian politics from the outside there doesn't seem to actually be one? Anarchism is not a "broad church", moralistic activism is.
Equally opposed to the word 'scene' hence not using it. I think we used 'movement' to describe what various anarchists of different guises are getting up to. I agree that there isn't a single coherent 'movement' as such, however as Dave describes in the first article there is a hell of a lot that anarchists are getting up to / have got up to which is worth looking at. I guess its fair enough claiming there are no connections between a lot of these 'anarchist' groups, I would disagree though (as would almost every other anarchist I have ever talked to!)... hence making the zine.
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I like the idea of a bit of personal recollections zine, not too serious but something which gives people a bit of identity (stop laughing everyone) and a sense of continuity - but this isn't actually that. This is a bunch of articles by disparate groups who aren't really related, and the articles are political, meaning that you should have gone for a more political format to start with.
I agree that not all the articles are 'personal' enough, that is something that we as compilers/editors didn't have that much control over really so the end result is a little different from what the original idea was. Still I hope that overall tone is not one of political ranting but rather political musing by a broad spectrum of self-described anarchists.
Glad you liked it john!
guydebordisdead wrote:
Animal liberation has nothing to do with anarchism
Actually, that's probably the opposite of that, there is no anarchism without animal lib (well maybe in the beginning of 20th century and before that there was). This submovement (animal lib) is one of the few that is still struggling to maintain anarchist ideals, rather than simply quoting the few dead men.
Of course they do sometimes get corrupted by the pro-violence idiots, but it happens more often with the "true" anarchists. Look at Class War Federation for example with their "Riot Porn" videos and stickers about football.
ethical_anarhist wrote:
guydebordisdead wrote:
Animal liberation has nothing to do with anarchismActually, that's probably the opposite of that, there is no anarchism without animal lib (well maybe in the beginning of 20th century and before that there was). This submovement (animal lib) is one of the few that is still struggling to maintain anarchist ideals, rather than simply quoting the few dead men.
Of course they do sometimes get corrupted by the pro-violence idiots, but it happens more often with the "true" anarchists. Look at Class War Federation for example with their "Riot Porn" videos and stickers about football.
What are you talking about? Setting animals free from cages really has nothing to do with the struggle for a classless society. I've no idea how you can think that there can be 'no anarchism without animal lib' or how it 'maintains anarchist ideals'. A bunch of people letting mink out of farms might be morally righteous if you're so inclined but has nothing really to do with the grand anarchist project and doesn't bring us a single step closer to revolution. There has already been a huge thread on this I'm certain. As for your comments on class war, it's not their violent image that's the problem really.
ethical_anarhist wrote:
Actually, that's probably the opposite of that, there is no anarchism without animal lib (well maybe in the beginning of 20th century and before that there was). This submovement (animal lib) is one of the few that is still struggling to maintain anarchist ideals, rather than simply quoting the few dead men.
Can't say I agree with this one bit. In Australia there may be some anarchists in the animal liberation movement, in general the only difference between the animal liberation mobs and the animal welfare (RSPCA and the like) mobs is dietary habits with AR being dogmatic vegans and AW not. There's fuck all anarchist ideals from my experience which is why I won't join any of the AL groups here.
all the best.
gregg.
ethical_anarhist wrote:
guydebordisdead wrote:
Animal liberation has nothing to do with anarchismActually, that's probably the opposite of that, there is no anarchism without animal lib (well maybe in the beginning of 20th century and before that there was). This submovement (animal lib) is one of the few that is still struggling to maintain anarchist ideals, rather than simply quoting the few dead men.
Oh fuck you.
Tacks wrote:
ethical_anarhist wrote:
guydebordisdead wrote:
Animal liberation has nothing to do with anarchismActually, that's probably the opposite of that, there is no anarchism without animal lib (well maybe in the beginning of 20th century and before that there was). This submovement (animal lib) is one of the few that is still struggling to maintain anarchist ideals, rather than simply quoting the few dead men.
Oh fuck you.
No flaming tacks. Still, what he said is completely and utterly wrong.
ethical_anarhist wrote:
Actually, that's probably the opposite of that, there is no anarchism without animal lib (well maybe in the beginning of 20th century and before that there was). This submovement (animal lib) is one of the few that is still struggling to maintain anarchist ideals, rather than simply quoting the few dead men.Of course they do sometimes get corrupted by the pro-violence idiots, but it happens more often with the "true" anarchists. Look at Class War Federation for example with their "Riot Porn" videos and stickers about football.
The one good thing Class War did back in the late 80s and early 90s was fuck off all the liberal, individualist and pacifist shit that was current among British anarchists at the time.
indeed. when a particular stance towards violence (e.g. "always violent" or "never violent") becomes entrenched it can all too easily become dogmatic and exclusory, while any effective and intelligent movement/group uses tactics that are specific to context and goals. Although Class War are guilty of a fair amount of, erm, interesting stuff, they did very effectively disrupt this sort of holier-than-thou discourse and practice.
re. the zine - i quite like what you're trying to do, but i think you'll need a bit more coherence between articles and less reliance on fully-political terminology and thinkers (and thus quite inward-looking), like others have said. i like the pretty simple and fresh layout although it could do with more to break up the text.
guydebordisdead wrote:
Setting animals free from cages really has nothing to do with the struggle for a classless society. I've no idea how you can think that there can be 'no anarchism without animal lib' or how it 'maintains anarchist ideals'. A bunch of people letting mink out of farms might be morally righteous if you're so inclined but has nothing really to do with the grand anarchist project and doesn't bring us a single step closer to revolution. There has already been a huge thread on this I'm certain. As for your comments on class war, it's not their violent image that's the problem really.
I agree, and I'm vegan 
edit - grrregg, FYI, the situation in Australia is really different to over here, and (from what I've read/seen), the UK/USA - in Aussie, there's virtually no cross-polination between anarchist and animal lib groups...
madashell wrote:
The one good thing Class War did back in the late 80s and early 90s was fuck off all the liberal, individualist and pacifist shit that was current among British anarchists at the time.
I think a lot of this is myth. I think the miners strike, and Wapping had much more effect.
Devrim
ftony wrote:
they did very effectively disrupt this sort of holier-than-thou discourse and practice.
Not quite, they've just tried to substitute their own "holier than thou" attitude for what was there before. In fact look at 'madashell''s post before yours it clearly shows that there is "I will be deciding what is and what isn't anarchism" approach there.
Asher wrote:
the situation in Australia is really different to over here, and (from what I've read/seen), the UK/USA - in Aussie, there's virtually no cross-polination between anarchist and animal lib groups...
Which is quite an interesting thing that i've noticed, in the countries which actively fight against programmes such as COUNTELPRO, there is more cross-polination between different segments of the anarchist movement. As we know the goal of COUNTELPRO was exactly that, to divide whatever movement was emerging which bridged the gap between different groups.
It's very easy to defeat the "anarchist" group which is only animal lib or only class struggle, only pacifist or only pro-violence. However, as soon as there is a coherent analysis that is formed; that's when you can start to move forward as the society.
ethical_anarhist wrote:
Not quite, they've just tried to substitute their own "holier than thou" attitude for what was there before. In fact look at 'madashell''s post before yours it clearly shows that there is "I will be deciding what is and what isn't anarchism" approach there.
Yeah, but you're a pacifist, so nobody really gives a shit what you think.
Seriously though, animal rightism is one thing, I can work with animal rightists, but pacifists really fuck me off. Seriously, go join the fucking Green Party or something, because you're sure as hell not going to achieve anything with NVDA.
ethical_anarhist wrote:
ftony wrote:
they did very effectively disrupt this sort of holier-than-thou discourse and practice.Not quite, they've just tried to substitute their own "holier than thou" attitude for what was there before. In fact look at 'madashell''s post before yours it clearly shows that there is "I will be deciding what is and what isn't anarchism" approach there.
isn't your declaration that "there is no anarchism without animal lib" the exact same thing, only even more blatantly offensive, in that it dismisses the contribution of the vast majority of anarchists throughout history?
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However, as soon as there is a coherent analysis that is formed; that's when you can start to move forward as the society.
how does not agreeing with animal lib constitute not having a coherent analysis?
Tacks wrote:
...too far the other way now you big silly. You can achieve loads with NVDA as a tactic, and it is used in class struggle all the time. It can achieve sweet fuck all as a complete methodology or ideology, but that is not what you said, old bean.
Fair point, I should have said "with NVDA alone"
We have just completed a new zine called 'A Pause for Breath' which is trying to collect reflections from the anarchist movement in Britain (primarily) and abroad. We wanted to avoid propaganda and theory-heavy discussion but rather try to get more 'personal' accounts from people involved in the 'movement'. It is available for download at: apauseforbreath.blogspot.com (for hard copies email apauseforbreath[at]riseup.net).
Would appreciate any comments or discussion about content and direction of the zine.