Anarkismo and the PKK

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Devrim
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Nov 14 2009 07:44
Anarkismo and the PKK

Whilst looking at anarkismo this morning, I came across these:
http://www.anarkismo.net/article/14918
http://www.anarkismo.net/article/14991
The first is an article by Apo, the imprisoned PKK leader, and the second is a PKK statement. They are both published without any comment.

Devrim

Jason Cortez
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Nov 14 2009 08:59

Have you asked the mods at Anarkismo?

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Devrim
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Nov 14 2009 10:18

Asked them what, Jason, why they are publishing nationalist propaganda without any comment? If you look at the picture on the first one it is very clear what it is. I don't think it is something that you could make a mistake about easily. Nor do I think they would respond to me very positively either.

Devrim

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Nov 14 2009 12:18

Exactly, I remember when myself and Django pointed out that they had published an anti-Semitic statement we just got a torrent of abuse of things like "sectarian idiots" etc. Posting this sort of material, from national liberation movements, seems appropriate as they support national liberation movements (whatever they say publicly)

Deezer
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Nov 14 2009 14:36

Aye and my criticism of an article by a wsm member who attended a republican funeral, carried the coffin and claimed a wide range of radical political opinion was present including anarchists got me a warning. The point I was making was that this type of article was simply an endorsement for the Irish nationalism of the deceased man and that it included none of the serious political discussion or analysis that ABC claimed they had been set up to facilitate. That got loads of abuse and a you can't ban members of your organisation going to the funerals of paramilitaries that they knew - the point wasnt attendence it was writing an article about it and linking libertarian politics to the event. And republican funerals are specifically political events.

Part of me reckons that we shouldn't engage at all with this nonsense any more but unfortunately these people still claim to be part of our tradition so we can't ignore what, between the WSM, Anarkismo and ABC is actually a huge internet presence pumping out ridiculous and reactionary ideas and calling it anarchism/libertarian communism.

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Nov 14 2009 21:20

Well I did leave a very polite post asking what the rationale for was for reproducing PKK stuff on an anarchist website was, but its been deleted.

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Nov 14 2009 21:55
Django wrote:
Well I did leave a very polite post asking what the rationale for was for reproducing PKK stuff on an anarchist website was, but its been deleted.

I wish I could say I was surprised. But that is pretty hilarious.

Somebody else put a comment on the Abdullah Ocalan post asking a similar question, I believe the wording was "what has this got to do with class struggle anarchism?"

So I suppose statements by nationalist murderers, people who blow up civilians and launch campaigns of murdering schoolteachers are to be supported, but obviously questioning this is completely unacceptable.

But again, given that questioning anti-semitism leads to abuse demonstrates the kind of people we are dealing with, so support for nationalist murderers shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

Jason Cortez
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Nov 14 2009 23:12

Just for clarity. This is what the editorial collective replied

Anarkismo wrote:
has a specific section to publish non anarchist material of interest called "non anarchist press". There we often publish non anarchist articles and press releases we receive that would not fit in the main newswire, but that have interest to our readers and groups around Anarkismo. Also, we often publish in that section some interesting news from the bourgeois press as well.

p.s. they move all posts about editorial issues to a particular thread not delete them.

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Nov 14 2009 23:15

Yeah, I responded on that thread questioning why naked propaganda from the PKK was of more interest than that of any other nationalist outfit, given it has no analytical value.

Still, I don't agree with shifting critical comments to another part of the site where no-one will see them.

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Nov 15 2009 01:18

Editiorial discussion thread:

http://www.anarkismo.net/article/1700

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Nov 15 2009 11:26
Jason Cortez wrote:
Just for clarity. This is what the editorial collective replied
Anarkismo wrote:
has a specific section to publish non anarchist material of interest called "non anarchist press". There we often publish non anarchist articles and press releases we receive that would not fit in the main newswire, but that have interest to our readers and groups around Anarkismo. Also, we often publish in that section some interesting news from the bourgeois press as well.

p.s. they move all posts about editorial issues to a particular thread not delete them.

I like the way that they moved the comments to another thread where they don't come up by the article in question. After all it is a thread that everyone must go to first on opening anarkismo.

Secondly you think there would be some sort of disclaimer along with it. Recently Libcom published an article from the economist: http://libcom.org/library/co-operatives-all-together
It had this disclaimer:

Libcom wrote:
An interesting article from The Economist discussing the merits of workers' co-operatives as a means to avoid class conflict in a time of recession.

I think the way that those articles are presented on anarkismo is very ambiguous.

Django wrote:
Yeah, I responded on that thread questioning why naked propaganda from the PKK was of more interest than that of any other nationalist outfit, given it has no analytical value.

Well yes, I can't imagine them putting up articles from the 'Grey Wolves'. It does give the impression of some sort of concurrence.

Steven wrote:
So I suppose statements by nationalist murderers, people who blow up civilians and launch campaigns of murdering schoolteachers are to be supported, but obviously questioning this is completely unacceptable.

As Steven points out the PKK is a blatantly anti-working class organisation. Unfortunately, there are 158 school teachers who can't testify to this fact.

Deezer wrote:
Part of me reckons that we shouldn't engage at all with this nonsense any more but unfortunately these people still claim to be part of our tradition so we can't ignore what, between the WSM, Anarkismo and ABC is actually a huge internet presence pumping out ridiculous and reactionary ideas and calling it anarchism/libertarian communism.

II think though that lots of people consider groups like these to be 'comrades' whilst they wouldn't consider a Trotskyist group who published stuff by such anti-working class groups in the same way. Maybe it is something that needs to be thought about.

How do people define the groups that are 'revolutionary' and those that are not, based on their positions, and practice or the use of the word anarchism?

Devrim

knightrose
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Nov 15 2009 11:33

What I find strange is that when I meet WSM people they don't come across as dangerous leftist fellow travelers of Trotsky. So why do they publish stuff like this?

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smg
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Nov 15 2009 12:32

In North America it seems that most Anarchists support National Liberation Struggles. Its par for the course. I have rarely heard anyone critique an ongoing or past nationalist struggle from a working class perspective. Most self-identified Anarchists are activists who are gung ho for any type of perceived struggle or resistance regardless of how flawed or pointless it may be. Those folks who do not support nationalist struggles are mostly insurrectionists, primmies and post-leftists. Palestine, Zapatistas, Black Panthers, etc, etc, is accepted carte blanche.

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Nov 15 2009 12:43

.

akai
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Nov 15 2009 19:35

Ironic - just discussing / arguing about national identity with a person from the platformist tradition on a mailing list 5 minutes ago.

I am noticing that there is a slight snowball effect going on here: the more uncritical pro-national liberation texts appear and are considered normal, the more the tendency to support these sorts of movements seems to be rising. In the case of some movements, I feel the influence of the leftist past of some participants who came from groups with strong anti-imperialist politics.

In other places, one can see that there is just a long tradition of national fetishes.

In any case, if things continue to develop, it may make for a more divisive issue. I don't understand completely why certain people, who seem to otherwise be more class conscious, can get into this shit, except for what seems to be a tendency towards supporting popular movements - in other words, a fascination with anything that looks like mass resistance, no matter what its purpose.

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communal_pie
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Nov 15 2009 22:28

Honestly, the Anarkismo statement says it all in its 'affirmation of what platformism is'.

Basically look at the politics of so-called 'platformists'.

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Nov 15 2009 22:45

I'm sure there are good comrades within these organizations who have to be either privately cringing or doing intellectual gymnastics to reconcile internationalist positions with that of their organizations (or at least the practical implications), but I do think this type of thing is the logical conclusion to the approach of neo-platformism.

Deezer wrote:
Part of me reckons that we shouldn't engage at all with this nonsense any more but unfortunately these people still claim to be part of our tradition so we can't ignore what, between the WSM, Anarkismo and ABC is actually a huge internet presence pumping out ridiculous and reactionary ideas and calling it anarchism/libertarian communism.

I think on the question of engagement the fact they no longer will even come here to defend themselves speaks volumes as to whether or not they care what we think.

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Nov 16 2009 02:27
Jason Cortez wrote:
Just for clarity. This is what the editorial collective replied
Anarkismo wrote:
has a specific section to publish non anarchist material of interest called "non anarchist press". There we often publish non anarchist articles and press releases we receive that would not fit in the main newswire, but that have interest to our readers and groups around Anarkismo. Also, we often publish in that section some interesting news from the bourgeois press as well.

p.s. they move all posts about editorial issues to a particular thread not delete them.

OK so nothing of any interest at all has happened.

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Nov 16 2009 12:14
888 wrote:
OK so nothing of any interest at all has happened.

I think that it indicative of their politics. It shows their ambiguities on the national question. I think people would react very differently if they posted an article without comment by the leader of a different nationalist group, say Nick Griffin, or Jean-Marie Le Pen, and then moved the negative comments on it to another thread.

Devrim

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Nov 16 2009 12:56
Devrim wrote:
888 wrote:
OK so nothing of any interest at all has happened.

I think that it indicative of their politics. It shows their ambiguities on the national question. I think people would react very differently if they posted an article without comment by the leader of a different nationalist group, say Nick Griffin, or Jean-Marie Le Pen, and then moved the negative comments on it to another thread.

Devrim

exactly. And of course neither of those others have murdered hundreds of working class people

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Nov 16 2009 17:50

What was the reason given for PKK shooting of schoolteachers?

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Nov 16 2009 18:03

I believe it's because they were teaching as they were made to, in Turkish.

gypsy
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Nov 16 2009 18:13

Im interested in what people on here think can be said to say a boy whose father has been tortured or murdered by the turkish security forces to stop him joining the PKK?

I think its the case that their is no other way for people from these repressed nations to vent their anger and no other options in many cases. The PKK are enemys of the working class, but to many people they must seem like saviours and defenders.

This can be said for hundreds of nationalist movements around the world.

Deezer
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Nov 16 2009 18:26
allybaba wrote:
Im interested in what people on here think can be said to say a boy whose father has been tortured or murdered by the turkish security forces to stop him joining the PKK?

I think its the case that their is no other way for people from these repressed nations to vent their anger and no other options in many cases. The PKK are enemys of the working class, but to many people they must seem like saviours and defenders.

This can be said for hundreds of nationalist movements around the world.

And what do you say to the son of a teacher murdered by the PKK?

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Nov 16 2009 18:28
Quote:
What was the reason given for PKK shooting of schoolteachers?

Struggle against the assimilation. Kurdish was banned in turkey till recent "democratization process" and you can still easily get beaten in western cities while talking kurdish in the streets. Obviously pkk is directing the anger caused by this against the turkish workers(teachers), who are trapped in nationalism just because they were educated in a similar way and just because they had to accept working in eastern cities...

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Im interested in what people on here think can be said to say a boy whose father has been tortured or murdered by the turkish security forces to stop him joining the PKK?

Allybaba;

This question is very important. And I think you are right to pose it. Kurdish question is not an easy one. But I can say that most of the pro-PKK people with whom I discuss see the problem as a sentimental one; it is as if what turkish state did, and what the general turkish population did not react necessitates retribution. There is no way out of this. Turkish state is a brutal war machine and joining pkk is only legitimising this brutality.

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Nov 16 2009 18:33
allybaba wrote:
Im interested in what people on here think can be said to say a boy whose father has been tortured or murdered by the turkish security forces to stop him joining the PKK?

at least such an individual has strong personal motives to become involved with a nationalist gang. i'm not sure what the excuse of leftists thousands of miles away is to be uncritically providing them with a platform.

allybaba wrote:
I think its the case that their is no other way for people from these repressed nations to vent their anger and no other options in many cases.

this simply isn't true. there's a million and one ways to react to personal tragedy than joining an armed nationalist gang and murdering workers.

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Nov 16 2009 19:06
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this simply isn't true. there's a million and one ways to react to personal tragedy than joining an armed nationalist gang and murdering workers.

not always... That is what make the issue a tragedy. Think about a situation where you are in a third world country; Where you belong to a large ethnic minority. You hardly learn the majority language and you hardly know other foreign languages such as english or french. Imagine that you can hardly/scarcely and most probably you cannot reach literature defending internationalist position.

Think that most probably some very close relatives or even you, have been driven out from your village by military and your village has been burnt down. Think that somebody you know from your village was forced to eat shit - maybe you because you are speaking that minority's language. Think that, you only get shittiest jobs and the worst working conditions in the big cities in the west the army forced you to move. Think that lots of your close relatives had a memory of torture, rape and killing. Think that this oppression caused simply by you belonging that minority minority, dates back to the birth of the state you born in.

In that case, There is not much option then, turning either to some islamist/liberal/conservative or leftist/national-liberational/armed group - these are the single most accessible oppositional currents to the regime and its mainstream ideology. Nightmarish right?

I think that is why the activities of communists like you in England, US or Europe is very precious. Because at least you belong to the part of a class that accumulated (even in its minorities) the experience of worker movements that already developed the internationalist critique of nationalism.

However in the parts of the world such as Turkey, even debating nationalism/national liberation/the foundation of republic etc., can easily cause a fight or even lynch.

Just think about that;

there is NO SINGLE organisation in turkey, except ICC that defends internationalism. Even anarchist communists -probably the ones who had put these articles to anarchismo are turkish a.c.'s - are nationalists of one sort. Here it is very difficult and challenging to come up against both nationalisms for even an organisation, let alone a single kurdish individual...

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Nov 16 2009 19:33
allybaba wrote:
Im interested in what people on here think can be said to say a boy whose father has been tortured or murdered by the turkish security forces to stop him joining the PKK?

I think its the case that their is no other way for people from these repressed nations to vent their anger and no other options in many cases. The PKK are enemys of the working class, but to many people they must seem like saviours and defenders.

This can be said for hundreds of nationalist movements around the world.

true, and not just nationalist movements but also organisations like criminal gangs. People who suffer from an attack by one criminal gang, particularly in certain areas where gang violence is extremely prevalent, may respond by joining a rival gang and engaging in tit for tat violence.

This is a fact of life, and is tragic - but this is not a cycle which anarchists or communists should be perpetuating by supporting one (bad) side over another.

Anarkismo wouldn't side with the Cripps over the Bloods (or at least I would hope not...) - this situation is not qualitatively different.

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Nov 16 2009 19:43

Steven;

In general I agree with you. However I feel that you are a bit underastimating national question. It is a real question that can not be compared to lumpen fights. While in your example it is only lumpen proletariat in the national struggle it is whole classes that are pitted against each other. Can you imagine how traumatic consequences that this can have?

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Nov 16 2009 19:54

Yes I can, and your posts are instructive of the extent of the problem.

However, my point was that it is a quantitative difference, not a qualitative difference, in order to demonstrate the foolishness of the position of anarchists or communists supporting one side over another.

gypsy
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Nov 16 2009 19:55
Deezer wrote:
allybaba wrote:
Im interested in what people on here think can be said to say a boy whose father has been tortured or murdered by the turkish security forces to stop him joining the PKK?

I think its the case that their is no other way for people from these repressed nations to vent their anger and no other options in many cases. The PKK are enemys of the working class, but to many people they must seem like saviours and defenders.

This can be said for hundreds of nationalist movements around the world.

And what do you say to the son of a teacher murdered by the PKK?

Deezer, I wouldnt know what to say. Im not showing support for the PKK if thats what you were implying.