BNP & populism

yeah i'd say they were right wing populists.

dunno what cantwaittojointhenewworker'sparty is whinging about.

Er they aren't populist, in case you hadn't noticed they have some fucking crazy neo-nazi core and some mental racial program going on. Just because they happen to ''not like asylum seekers'' doesn't exactly make them populist given that in the next sentence they'll be telling us not to support the english football team because its not ''racially pure'' enough. What percentage of the population views the BNP as populist? I'd think it was thankfully safe to say that most people view them as an extremist option outside a few small enclaves.

Yes i forgot the BNP are such a large party getting millions of votes on the verge of taking power. Oh no wait thats wrong they're fringe weirdos with no serious commercial backing and a couple of councillors

Seriously though, while they may have a wing that wants to be populist, but they're miles way from actually achieving that goal. And lumping them in with UKIP is just silly.

You've been listening to far too much labour party crap . They got 800,000 in 2004 not ''over a million''. If you mention the BNP most people are well aware of their nazi connections.

Comparing british fascism to italian or french fascism is just stupid. French fascism relies on a larger agrarian population and vichy remnants and italian fascism obviously has a completly different place in relation to the political establishment and big business.

They're polling twice UKIP, actually. The "wing" that "wants" to be Populist is firmly in control of the party, the 'hardline Nazis' have all been kicked out or made to shut the fuck up

They couldn't even be populist over something as basic as the EU. So how are they going to manage on race relations or anything else. Which nazis have been kicked out specifically? Do you think the burnley and oldham lot are down with this ''populist'' line? Last time i checked griffin is still very much in contact with the NF.

And its got nothing to do with how much they're polling in terms of why they're different from UKIP, especially since UKIP collapsed. Its about who was funding UKIP, where they got there support from and what they would have done once taking power, all of which make it ridiculous to compare the two as you well know.

Firstly thats exaggerated nonsense, more than just politicos are aware that the BNP have neo-nazi links. And secondly what do you think most people who live say in london and the south east say would think of you tried to convince them that the BNP was on the verge of becoming a major party challenging for power. They'd look at you as if you were an abslute raving lunatic.

Where do you think support for the Front Nationale and the BNP comes from, just random sections of the population? Quite clearly fascism in western europe still uses the following areas for its core support. a) elements of the ancien regime b) small business owners c) peasants d) disenfranchised ex-heavy industry workers from areas with high unemployment. Now i'm sorry but clearly in all of those categories the french fascists have a larger non-metropolitan base to call upon, especially obviously in rural areas since theres no such thing as a british peasantry.

And if you wish to pretend that sections of the french civil service and bourgeoisie aren't far more inclined towards the front nationale than the equivalent ever would be to the BNP in britain then you're just being ridiculous. Clearly the british establishment being more conservative and having never had a republic takes a much more dim view of the BNP's perceived ''radicalism''.

So basically to summarise you've abandoned any attempt at a class analysis of fascism in favour of some liberal hogwash desined to cast the working class as simpletons who without the ''proper leadership'' would simply walk straight into fascism.

Perhaps judging by this analysis you're more into ''socialist realism'' than reality so you'll be leafletting with that muppet billy bragg against the ''fascist menace'' then

ps This should be split really since its wayyy offtopic

cantdo i love how you just make up shit and then try and give it some "scientific" backing by tying it to the economy.

I mean do you really think the FN take support from renaments of the Ancien Regime? I mean what do you even mean by that? The FN are thoroughly republican and they certainly aren't canvassing around bringing back the monarchy, or do you think some dastardly Austrians are reanimating Marie Antoinettes corpse and plan to have her run in Marsielle?

Infact your Ancien Regime comment is just fucking mental!

I disagree with Jack, I think most people equate the BNP with fascism, sometimes in simplistic manner that hides more than it illumiates. However there is no doubting that the BNP are Populist, now they not be that successful but that just means they aren't popular, not that they aren't populist.

in terms of the rural elite and landowners in eastern regions then yes, in terms of the monarchy obviously not

So your argumeent is that the BNP try to be populist but they're not very good at it. Surely this is because they're full of loonies who stop the party being usccesfully populist because they've been marginalised for a long time already, which was my point in the first place.

Oh whatever, i don't care, as long as you're not trying to convince me the BNP are somehow on the verge of some huge electoral success or that they should be lumped in with the grassroots right of the tory party then i'm not that bothered.

nah i reckon the hysteria over the BNP is the product of the mainstream parties trying to scare people into legitimising "democracy", and also allows the government and opposition to pass more repressive immigration and "law and order" policy, on the basis of having to cut off the fascists.

But yeah it's a tad worrrying when libertarian communists are discussing who they are voting for.

I know it makes lil difference either way, but there is a place for principles and if we can't keep to the basics regarding shit like elections (where close to 50% don't vote already) what does that hint at for the future?

Which was exactly my point, they are attempting populism but will never get popular cos of the fascist connection.

Well lets take one area where the BNP are probably in tune with the general public more than the mainstream parties.

Given DNA, it is now arguably possible to determine whether a convicted killer is definately guilty or not. In my opinion this makes the case for the death penalty stronger than at any time in the previous 50 years - yet the only political party of any size arguing for its restoration is the BNP.

On that issue at least I would argue they are clearly populist, not fascist.

No it's not, at all. you've watched too much CSI. It's easy to plant someone's DNA at a scene of crime, prosecutors can then go apeshit saying "look - DNA!" with no real evidence. The death penalty is bollocks, whether most people support it or not. But I'd say the BNP are populist yeah, but not popular, cos most people rightly think they're racist and fascist.

John - You might be correct - but how many people actually believe that happens, and have any cops ever been caught doing it?

Death penalty is a tough one, I don't know any people who would want it back. It's one of those things that suposedly has public support but you rarely meet anyone who does or see it in the populist papers. The first may just be me but the second is true.

plus most parties don't want to pick a fight with the EU on this one and lose.

BNP supportes are largely protest voters. Also urban regeneration funds are often channelled to such areas, some people might think it was worth trying to get their hands on some.

The BNP can't even approach the FN's electoral success when they stand in elections 'don't matter'. They do even worse in elections where the result is perceived to matter.

exactly rkn. They use race stuff in Burnley and Oldham etc but in other areas they act differently.

The association with racism is obvious to me and to pretty much anyone I've met who's heard of the BNP.

Well I didn't mean cops, I mostly meant murderers. If I was gonna kill someone I'd make sure I put someone else who had a motive's hair at the scene or somethin so there'd be DNA evidence it was them. I think most people would realise this could happen if they thought about it for a second...

Re: the death penalty, with the opinion polls about its re-introduction the answers always depend on how the question is worded (like right-wing poll things can ask stuff like "do you think child-raping, puppy-killing paedos should be able to get away with it and not be executed?"), and worded sensibly I'm pretty sure that a majority are consistently against it.

Actually I remember seeing in the paper the other day the Metro reported that support for the death penalty had dropped to about 40% while opposition had risen to 51%.

Nah that's bullshit. Sorry...most people are pretty aware of it. RKN and Jef are correct that people vote for them as a protest. It's actually a really childish thought process: "Oh look what you've made me do", but that's pretty irrelevant.

Every political party is populist to a certain degree, the BNP have simply benefited from loose, ill-defined policies allowing for council candidates to be flexible and jump on any local bandwagon. That's why they've recuperated some of the vote from the "major" parties.

Exactly. Jack's been whacking off to IWCA propaganda too much.

As instructed by the ghost of Maurice Brinton no doubt.

Where is Jack?

Maybe he's actually being bullied by Maurice Brintons ghost ala Psycho and isn't allowed on the internet.

"No Maurice, I wasn't advocating elections".

"No mother I don't want to".

He's up north for work i believe

do they though? I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you provide a citation? because the vox pops i've seen/ quotations ive seen from bnp voters in Barking & Dagenham have said they really believe a bnp councillor really will look out for their interests.

Well on the basis of the 2 people I knew who considered voting for them over a local issue and out of a feeling of rejection by Labour and the Tories, then yeah (I'm pretty sure in the end they didn't, due to discovering that the BNP's prop over said local issue was complete misinformation), but that's not really the point. A vote for any party outside of the mainstream represents a protest vote IMO. I mean, it's not like there's a major (or even large minor) core of fascists in this country. I mean, compare the BNP with the NF in terms of size. It's usually due to resentment of the mainstream for failing to deal with certain trigger issues.

so your insight into bnp voters is based on people who you're pretty sure DIDNT vote bnp? ...... doesn't tell us much about the people that did, who must have been more willing to believe the lies, and/or had other reasons.

yeah bnp voters must resent mainstream political parties, but does that mean that none of them actually agree with the bnp policies? from what ive heard bnp voters think that a bnp councillor can really sort out the problems in their area.

*Takes deep breath*

No, as I said, my "conclusions" are not based on empirical evidence!! That was just a sidenote!!

The BNP's national policies are ill-defined, vague and nuanced, sufficiently so that certain people (who are not even necessarily predisposed towards that kinda rhetoric) can be persuaded that they are the people who'll alleviate the issues that the main parties haven't. I mean, doesn't Griffin even bandy around talk of "socialism"? And that doesn't mean that I'm saying everyone votes for them on false pretenses.

Or something very similar.

the BNP doubled their councillors - to over 40. They might not be universally popular, but I'd say their appeal is on the basis of right wing populism, not nazism or fascism.

Hmmm I'd say more authoritarian populism, most of their economic policies are left-wing.