BNP's Nick Griffin on BBC Question Time
Oct 23 2009 11:36
So, who saw this, what were your thoughts?
Did anyone go on the demonstration, any report backs?
Highlights for me were him saying he couldn't explain why he changed his mind on the Holocaust being a fairytale, despite Jack Straw informing him as Justice Minister that he would not get in trouble for it. And him looking like a small child saying he thought gay men kissing was "creepy".
Overall, he came off looking very bad. But it was unfortunate that that's the terrain of the debate was pretty reactionary all round - the candidates from all the major parties were falling over themselves to address the immigration "problem". The Liberal Democrat bloke was particularly disgusting, trying to say that he wanted to stop all the Poles coming here as well!
Oct 23 2009 13:35
#2
I was a bit dispointed they all ganged up on Nick, it was all rather easy playing to a sympathetic crowd with with the usual rather predictable anti nazi rhetoric on what he had said and done in the past.
The ordinary voters the BNP have attracted read the tabloid press and have heard this dozens of times put a lot more strongly, but it didn't put them off voting for them.
What I rather have seen is them to actually challenge the 'reasonable' policies the BNP have that people are actually voting for and maybe do some real damage.
Oct 23 2009 13:46
#3
jaocheu wrote:
What I rather have seen is them to actually challenge the 'reasonable' policies the BNP have that people are actually voting for
but of course those policies are actually very close to their own; hence Jack Straw saying the difference between the BNP and other parties is their "lack of moral compass" rather than their actual policies. New Labour drag migrants from their beds and incarcerate them morally, you see.
Oct 23 2009 14:04
#4
Well the worst-case scenario of him running rings around the panel didn't happen, he wasn't sharp enough to beat Dimbleby in particular which bodes well for future debates as long as his opponents take him seriously.
The interesting thing was precisely that the liberals and rightists ended up tying themselves up in knots and almost ignoring the guy by the end, very stark example of how bankrupt the approach of mainstream politicians to immigration actually is.
IMHO Griffin's greatest ally was silence, when he spoke he constantly ran the risk of making a prick of himself.
Oct 23 2009 14:58
#5
I thought it was going to be more of a current affairs debate really, but in the end it was all centred on criticising Griffin. It created a kind of strange feedback loop, where the hype generated by his appearence on the show ended up being the main news story that they were talking about.
I gave up about halfway through and went to bed, as there's only so much bourgeois discussion of immigration I can take. Did they discuss the postal strike at all? What did Nick say about it?
Oct 23 2009 17:21
#6
Nope there was no discussion of the postal strike. By far the most important event of yesterday.
Oct 23 2009 18:51
#7
I hope his being there put a lot of people off them. He seemed just foolish, contradicting himself, refusing to answer & at one point he even clapped the crowd who were clapping a point made against him.
I was also disappointed by how against immigration most of the panel were, it seemed they were just agreeing with him at one point.
The biggest challenge is in tackling the causes of their support, the lack of control people feel over their own lives,
the fact people feel they are not being listened to by a system full of faults.
Oct 23 2009 18:58
#8
I personally was outraged that Nick Griffin used the term 'unpleasant ultra-left establishment' to describe the BBC. Anyone knows that this insult should properly be used against us in the ICC.
Oct 23 2009 18:59
#9
Lol I was thinking that earlier. Griffin would no doubt throw up if he read the stuff on here.
Oct 23 2009 19:11
#10
i didn't watch it, but from talking to a cross-section of people it just seems to have reinforced existing views; anti-BNP people think he looked like a twat, Jeremy Clarkson sympathisers think he was being bullied by the establishment and 'want to hear what he has to say.'
Oct 23 2009 19:29
#11
The most sickening thing was at the beginning when they were arguing about who could claim the true heritage of Winston Churchill. Straw told us that 'we' had only won in both world wars because of the contribution of African and Asian troops to the Allied war efforts. In sum, all of them, sporting their neat little poppies, were arguing over who is the best patriot. The discussion on immigration showed the same basic approach, so that the Tory MP - 'introduced as Britain's most powerful Muslim woman' - having berated Griffin for his nasty racist views then told us that there was indeed too much immigration and 'we' needed to put a cap on it. 'Britain' is the starting point for all of them, from right to left.
There were moments of high comedy however, such as Griffin claiming that David Duke led an entirely non-violent wing of the Ku Klux Klan, and when he blundered into saying that he 'couldn't explain' why he had been a Holocaust denier. Probably he mant to say that the repressive establishment outlawed any sensible discussion about the Holocaust, but it came out sounding like someone who had become prematurely demented.
Oct 23 2009 19:36
#12
Quote:
The most sickening thing was at the beginning when they were arguing about who could claim the true heritage of Winston Churchill.
Griffin is probably the most entitled to claim it, since Churchill was also a firm believer in "keeping Britain white."
It's sad to see many people are completely oblivious to the general reactionary and xenophobic character of all parties' discourse, and choose instead to direct their outrage only at the bad fascists who are so bad and evil. This is basically what one of my swappie friends told me today - "how can the BBC allow this fascist to speak out his vile fascist beliefs?". Of course she was forced to agree that when it comes to immigrants (only the most obvious example), the BNP and New Labour aren't exactly oceans apart.
Oct 23 2009 21:02
#13
"If I had been an Italian, I am sure I would have been entirely with you from
the beginning to the end of your victorious struggle against the bestial
appetites and passions of Leninism." [To Benito Mussolini in a press conference
in Rome (January 1927), as quoted in Churchill : A Life (1992) by Martin
Gilbert]
"One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If
our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to
restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations." ["Hitler
and His Choice", The Strand Magazine (November 1935)]
"We cannot tell whether Hitler will be the man who will once again let loose
upon the world another war in which civilisation will irretrievably succumb, or
whether he will go down in history as the man who restored honour and peace of
mind to the Great Germanic nation." ["Hitler and His Choice", The Strand
Magazine (November 1935)]
These can be found at: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sir_Winston_Churchill
Oct 23 2009 21:24
#14
Alf wrote:
The most sickening thing was at the beginning when they were arguing about who could claim the true heritage of Winston Churchill.
exactly, that it was awful.
Quote:
In sum, all of them, sporting their neat little poppies,
that Tory Muslim women did not have a "little poppy" - hers was fucking huge!
Quote:
There were moments of high comedy however, such as Griffin claiming that David Duke led an entirely non-violent wing of the Ku Klux Klan
no, it was funnier than that: he said "almost entirely non-violent"
Oct 23 2009 21:39
#15
Alf wrote:
I personally was outraged that Nick Griffin used the term 'unpleasant ultra-left establishment' to describe the BBC. Anyone knows that this insult should properly be used against us in the ICC.
The International Cricket Council ?????
Oct 24 2009 01:31
#16
THE JUDEAN PEOPLES FRONT!??????
Oct 24 2009 02:07
#17
Steven wrote:
Quote:
Did anyone go on the demonstration, any report backs?
What was the focus of the demonstration? Was it specifically against the BBC for giving Griffin and the BNP this 'platform', or was there more to it than that? And did some group(s) organise it or was it more or less spontaneous? If it was organised by the SWP or some such other group/party, and if the focus was on the BBC for giving the BNP this 'platform', then I think it was really just a case of party competition and envy, i.e. they were angry because the BBC gave this 'platform' to the BNP instead of giving it to the SWP or whatever other leftist party they support. In that case, it would not be a demonstration that communists should involve themselves in. In fact, I would argue, if such were the case, communists should denounce the demonstration as reactionary.
As Vlad wrote:
Quote:
It's sad to see many people are completely oblivious to the general reactionary and xenophobic character of all parties' discourse, and choose instead to direct their outrage only at the bad fascists who are so bad and evil.
This is part of the danger of leftist forms of anti-fascism.
Oct 24 2009 07:56
#18
Yup. Nauseating watching an ignorant gutter thug like Griffen being turned into a major bogieman, threatening our woinderful demokracy - while on Dimbleby's right sat the sanctimonious Jack Straw, a war criminal whose hands drip with blood. A perfect example of how, today, anti-fascism is far more of a threat than fascism.
Oct 24 2009 08:07
#19
Alf wrote:
I personally was outraged that Nick Griffin used the term 'unpleasant ultra-left establishment' to describe the BBC. Anyone knows that this insult should properly be used against us in the ICC.
Alf this is a serious discussion forum, please don't make in jokes here 
They were talking about this at my new work in the staff room. Select quotes
"Get a job" (UAF)
"They're just anarchists" (UAF)
"Fathers4justice had a good cause but then they got infiltrated by anarchists"
Liberals that don't want to admit that they actually agree with the BNP annoy me so much, I was tempted to join in but my sandwich was tooo good. Although on my first day my Head of Department ended up talking about defending working conditions so it might be ok.
Oct 24 2009 10:25
#20
I was personally offended by the presence of right wing apologist Jack Straw - why weren't people out in their droves demonstrating against that particular piece of pond scum? Straw is a central piece in the administration that directed the policy for atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan (with in excess of 1m dead), brought unemployment back to Thatcher levels, implemented a right wing agenda against immigration, bails out the banks while workers are thrown on the scrapheap etc etc - Griffin, like many other far right leaders, is a jealous public schoolboy with petty delusions of grandeur but is being used as a poster boy to distract and deflect the public mind away from the continual ongoing fascist agenda being waged from No. 10 Downing Street!
Oct 24 2009 14:05
#21
back2front wrote:
Griffin, like many other far right leaders, is a jealous public schoolboy with petty delusions of grandeur but is being used as a poster boy to distract and deflect the public mind away from the continual ongoing fascist agenda being waged from No. 10 Downing Street!
Agreed, however it used to be the Tories who built up the far right when they were in power as a distraction, nowadays it's labour.
Oct 24 2009 17:02
#22
fully agree with Shug about anti-fascism being the greater threat. The whole circus of Question Time sort to line everyone up behind the state.
Griffen comes across like Le Pen: a buffoon. But the ruling class will make great use of him and the BNP, as the French ruling class did. It was the 'Socialist' Mitterand who insisted that Le Pen be allowed to appear on his first prime time show on French TV in 1984.
Oct 25 2009 12:26
#23
Oct 25 2009 19:36
#24
I've just finished watching this - I agree with the general consensus that everyone there came off looking like a complete tosser.
~J.
Nov 1 2009 10:44
#25
Nick Griffin made a complete fool of himself on Question Time (deliberately not set in the north of England?), but the other Capitalist speakers were little better. The BNP will certainly drum up turn out for the next election circus ...........
Nov 1 2009 14:00
#26
Yep, the commune got it pretty much spot on. Also, a bit off-topic, but in general fascism/anti-fascism news it's worth recording that yesterday on the anti-EDL demo in Leeds, after an anarchist comrade known to the police escaped from UAF's designated protest pen and then tried to get back inside it to avoid being grabbed by the cops, UAF stewards literally held him and handed him over to the police. Bastards.
Don't tell me you were surprised?