Bone found in Guardian

What motivates madashell, revol, is the genuine hatred (and I use the word deliberately) some older AF members have for Class War. That's why we get the unsubstantiated comments about hero worship and the annoyance at what is in fact a pretty pedestrian interview.

As far as I'm aware no one from CW has kicked sand in madashell's face or stolen any AF member's lunch money - instead CW is never to be forgiven by some people for however briefly breaking out of the Anarchist ghetto. Ian, having been part of something similar with MA'M, Alarm and the Bristolian, is particularly despised. He's not even a "proper" anarchist, and his book is in WH Smiths!

I first came across this hatred as a young pup on one of the Criminal Justice Bill demonstrations in 1994, when I naively approached an AF stall in Trafalgar Square. Not wanting to sell Class War when I could be in the pub, I reached an agreement with an even younger pup in the AF - they would take my papers and we would split the money 50/50.
I got talking to someone for a few mintes and was then treated to the bizarre sight of ------N returning to the AF stall, abusing all and sundry for having the CW papers on there "Who the fucking hell put those there" was about the nicest thing he said, not realising I was standing with my back to him!

For what it's worth, I don't think I have met anyone in CW who hero worshipped Ian Bone. Indeed Ian has not been a member of CWF since 1993, and we both seem to get on OK without the other. Personally, I think Ian is probably the best political writer of his generation, and indeed one of the best writers I have read (even his Total Football columns 10 years ago were side splitting) but that is my personal, subjective opinion, and I don't expect others to share it.

I think anyone involved in revolutionary politics will gain something from reading his book, and I hope activists are not put off by other people's bitterness.

You do know that revol has nothing to do with the AF and madashell is barely out of short trousers (sorry), yeah?

This is bollocks and you know it. The majority dissolved itself in 97 because it saw its particular sub-cultural role in tackling pacifism and liberal wank as over and didn't see any other purpose for the organisation. This was, incidentally, one of the bravest and most honest decisions made by any left group in the UK in recent history. The minority continued based on the myth not the reality of Class War. It's that myth that people are reacting against, because it's a self-congratulatory pain in the arse, every bit as irritating as the SWP's inflation of demo numbers and whathaveyou.

I was addressing revol, not saying he agreed with madashell.

As for your other points, I voted to dissolve Class War in 1997 because I was told a serious attempt was being made to unite the anarchist movement, and get rid of all these stupid divisions and groups (I can't remember any talk about pacifism or liberals at any of the meetings, but then again I was there and you weren't, so who am I to doubt you?)

I continued in Class War, not because of any "myth", but because it became pretty obvious that we were being hoodwinked by a group of people who wanted to drop out of politics in a certain manner, and had no real intention of taking anyone with them, or who simply wanted an intellectual debating shop that would do nothing. I think I have been proved right.

If you really can't see the groundless bitterness and hatred some people in your own organisation have for CW, I suggest you take your head out of your arse more often.

Ooh, I've triggered a preprepared rant. I hate to break it to you Paul, but I'm really not responsible for anything an AF member might have said to you twelve fucking years ago.

I am quite curious, who've you got me mixed up with, if it's who I think it is, I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

what a crock of fucking shit!

where does ian say that he sorted

a) the steel workers strike
b) the miners strike
c) the persons unknown case (ok, 1970s - but tail end of the 1970s)
d) greeham common
e) the battle of the beanfield
f) the foundation of the acf
g) wapping

or

h) the fight against football id cards

and

i) the soviet withdrawal from afghanistan

double post

I'm going on what was published, but I accept the internal dynamic might have been different. Might I also suggest that if you're interested in 'uniting the anarchist movement' it might be a good idea to stop slagging off everyone else in it at every turn. Tends to put people's backs up.

Jack_Ketch, I'll get to the rest of your post in a bit, but:

This is embarassing, and not for Paul...

Before telling people not to slag each other off, perhaps a quick reappraisal of this thread would be in order.

PM, madashell is round my age for what its worth.

I do not believe I have mixed you up with anyone else at all. Your views sound typical of some long term AF members - bitter. If you are a young pup, it makes it all the sadder that you clearly cannot find out about an issue for yourself, but have to regurigtiate allegations of "hero worship" which you then cannot substantiate.

In fact I am still waiting for you to give some examples of this hero worship you are talking about - oh and me saying Ian is a very good writer does not count.

Firstly because you were bandying the accusation about before my post, and secondly because (for example) I happen to think Steven Gerrard is the best English midfielder of his generation, but I don't have a picture of the ugly Scouse cunt on my wall.

Part of life is recognising that someone has abilities, even if you may not always like or get on with that person. I really hope you manage to read "Bash the Rich" .... You might learn something.

indeed.

can we please leave it at that?

Where am I supposed to be "regurigitating (sic)" these allegations from? And as for bitter, don't make me fucking laugh, what am I meant to be bitter about here?

Your posts have been typical of the stuff I've seen from other Class War and ex-Class War people I've seen about this book, hyperbolic and rigidly unwilling to accept legitimate criticism, it's that kind of shit that prompted me to use the phrase "hero worship". The importance of Ian Bone in 1980s politics is being vastly overstated here.

I'm not the one personalising this here, I don't even know Ian Bone, I've never met him, I probably never will meet him, I just think that some of the stuff surrounding his book makes him look egotistical, he might not be responsible for any of it, I don't know, but it still annoys me.

tacks wjust wandering what you think of Class Wars stuntism and it's constant claims to have broken out of the anarchist ghetto? I mean I appreciate that you've angled yourself as the transcendental voice of reason on this thread but I think we should use this as an oppurtunity to discuss the successes and short comings of Class War's strategy.

I mean I can appreciate it's tongue and cheek style and the way it used humour to make political points and distance itself from the pacifists and other liberals but I do think it started to beleive it's own stuff and has become something of a parody of itself. There are other problems like it's stance (or suppoused lack of) on northern ireland and it's narrow concept of the "working clarse".

I think this is a decent thread for it because Ian Bone to me sums up both the best and worst of Class War.

So what ya reckon Tacks? How about not shutting down the debate and moving it in a more useful direction.

If mr bonehead wants to take credit for the
battle of the beanfield stuff him cos all
I remember is getting trashed by piggies
losing my home and being very scared.
In no way could it be seen as anything but
a disaster for all who were there.
It was the end of an era for many of us who
tried to build an alternative to city shit
on the road, it still hurts me to think
about it. Defeat is shit!

Hi

Indeed. I sorted Greenham Common as it happens, they weren’t called “The Dancing Dorises” for nothing.

I have a mild hero worship for Ian, the feeling is mutual.

To be fair, not everyone who left CW in 97 (I left in 91) were in the business of hoodwinking and another debating shop was the last thing they wanted. Having said that, it’s results that count, so I’ve not got a strong counter to your overall perspective.

There’s a persuasive charge emanating from some quarters that CW is stale, had reached the end of its natural life by 1997 and should be reinvented in such a way that develops forward with effective action and in so doing stops targeting the “difficult personalities” within the left / anarchist movement in favour of directly addressing the working class.

The anarchist world view is bound to see anyone without a charisma bypass as “egotistical". Such individualism should not be tolerated, it's no wonder it's so annoying.

Love

LR

Unless the individuals concerned are Spanish, Ukranian or Malatesta of course!

Well, as an older AFer who's been a member since 1986, can I just say that I'm not bitter. I've known some good people from Class War over the years, and others not so good. Such is life.

I think the early Class War paper was very positive for its time. The anarchist scene in the early 80s was by and large pretty dreadful and in its own way, Class War did manage to push class struggle to the forefront and help popularise class struggle anarchism to some degree. But the politics were always a bit hit and miss, the stuntism was never my cup of tea, and it pandered to a very stereotypical view of what is 'working class.' So like I say, pluses and minuses.

Maybe, one or two older AF members have some bitterness, I don't really know. But if they do, I suspect it's with good reason.

Here's a couple of examples...

Many years ago, a Class War contingent (including Ian Bone) came to an ACF conference as guests, in order to announce that the majority of people in Class War wanted to merge with the ACF and could we please organise a joint conference. As the ACF has always aimed to be as non-sectarian as possible, we thought it might be worth exploring, so we organised a conference in Nottingham. Imagine our surprise when a load of people from Class War turned up to slag of the ACF as just wanting to 'take over Class War' etc, etc... and who the fuck did we think we were, proposing a merger with Class War!?!? It turned out that this majority of CW members who wanted to merge with the AF was a complete Bone fabrication. To this day, I've no idea what the intentions of Ian Bone and his cohorts were... only they can say... But it was all a bit fucking weird to say the least.

Or how about Ian Bone turning up to A(C)F meetings at the bookfair, pissed as a fart, doing everything he could to sabotage those meetings (until he was asked to leave)? That's not really the way to win friends and influence people, is it.

I find it bizarre that anybody from the movement gives him the time of day. Obviously they must have seen a good side of him that we in the AF have never been treated to.

But as for the AF having a 'hatred' or bitterness towards Class War itself, that's totally ridiculous. Admittedly, one or two members might not hold the organisation in very high esteem and I personally am not that impressed with the paper, but that's to do with the politics and style rather than any burning resentment.

As for the book, take it with a pinch of salt, I say. Truth doesn't seem to be Ian Bone's strong point, and he's obviously not a wallflower either.

alright mate, very good post their, wasn't expecting something that balanced from you, fair play.

Thing is, i HAVE made my apparaisal of CW on other threads, and ones that you have posted on too - in the CW forum, i believe lazy riser was on them too. I remeber feeling that the decent comments and suggestions were lost in the attacking and defending of CW.

I won't dig it out, and if anyone finds the thread we can see how consistent or totally fickle i am

Strengths of Class War

1) has to be the writing style. They have the ability to frame stuff in a way anayone can understand without patronising.

2) the writing style part two: the umour. CW can often make you just grin or laugh out loud. The paper is a very good package, and copies from 1990 are breathtakingly good. I have a few, issue 50 is heavy.

3) some aspects of their class analysis, such as pointing out that the rich are still deserving targets, not just 'the system' or 'the ruling class'. Antagonising between the working and middle class* and the rich accentuates divisions and hopefully puts into a slightly more colourful package the sober IWW maxim 'the employing class than the working class have nothing in common'. Also their points about class ability and mobility not being strictly economic - also about networking, confidence etc.

4) Their antifascism. No need to go into it (and i know its not something u revol, care too much for) too much, but they have kept it alive.

5) stuntism. Why not? My only qualifications are - how good is the stunt? Did it work? did it do more harm than good? Could the time have been used better doing something else?
I think henley regatta was perfect to target. It wasn't trendy capitalism at the time, it was horse faced scumfucks braying like aristo's as the country burned. To attempt to encapsulate that all with a direct attack on 'the posh' was bang on. My criticism would be - it didn't really happen did it? These tings take serious organising.

Criticisms

1) activity. Class War should be a more creative version of the IWCA with better and wider analysis. Everything they talked about in their ideas of 'communities of resistance' is there in IWCA mold. By this i do not mean being councillors and doing elections i mean community work. I know for a fact that CW have very good roots in lots of communities where this would work, and their almost total absence at the Broadway Market campaign was a real shame.

There is next to no CW activity as far as i can see. Things are picking up though.

------->2) Redo Unfinished Business! Learn animation and o an interatcive version and films and stuff! UB is a really good book and a great way of having a statement of what a group is about.

3) their analysis is often a bit confused! I think a lot of the class analysis is outdated, and things aren't so easily polarised - but then they haven't had a stab at an update since 1992, so i mean LITERALLY outdated, not wrong neccesarily.

4) writing style! You don't need to swear all the time. Bastards is great, using 'fuck' a lot, nah. A lot of this stuff seems aimed directly back at the membership - ppl who are products of the 80's and get that kind of agitpunk style. The prop is some of the best going, but it needs to be updated a tiny bit and their needs to be stuff for all audiences.

That do for now?

PS - stuntism wot stuntism? nothing has happened in that vein in donkeys.

good post serge btw

Put it this way jack, my mum has heard of Class War, not purely because I am in it, but from seeing CW material plastered all over Manchester in the 1980s, from seeing Ian on the Jonathan Ross show, from seeing Andy Murphy salute the poll tax rioters etc.

Sadly, despite your best efforts, my mum is yet to hear of Libcom.

Tacks - some good stuff there - will discuss it with some of the others in the pub tonight!

There again, a lot of people outside of anarchist politics have heard of the Wombles, doesn't make them any less entrenched in the anarchist ghetto.

paul you should be discussing it over the internet not over a pub table! Have you learnt nothing?!

Revol mate, i trotted that lot out for you, so i'd be interested in what you think - about what i've said and about CW.

And where does Cynthia Payne fit in? Some people from South London CWG knew Cynthia quite well, and I had a cople of drinks with her, but I didn't know she knew Ian.
Dev

tacks

wr2 revol's attitude to anti-fascism, i suggest you ask him more about that as it is my understanding that *at one point* he was quite into that. but perhaps the eighteen months since april last year have been a long time in revol's political development.

my thoughts haven't changed. I was sympathetic to the action in April exactly because it was a alot different than other anti fash stuff. It was one action aiming for a specific result that go it and furthermore done it without the squadist boys own machismo that from my limited experiance runs through much Anti- Fa activities.

Just out of interest, how did Anti-Fash stuff become relevant and who in the name of Jesus, Mary, Joseph and all the saints are you?

a) tacks brought it up;

and b) someone who saw you that day.

nah I missed that reference in Tacks post, I don't think he did mistake me for the ICC. I have made it perfectly clear i think most anti fascism is just a ritualised load of boys own shite that helps give some political cohesion to a group of folks who otherwise would have nothing in common. Saying that it's not a primary command and i'm not going to lose sleep over some bonehead getting a slap.

20+ year head-start though mate, let's wait and see

I have no idea what u lot are talking about but perhaps you shouldn't be...?

i dunno