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Call from Organizing Committee of CNT-AIT Re-structuring Congress

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akai
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Nov 27 2016 20:51

The first time we learned of any Section of the lWA trying to make alternative networks outside it, we tried to have a discussion in the lWA, during the appropriate instance, which was the Plenary (2012). At that time, the following occured: FAU boycotted the event, CNT did not send a delegate, USl was there, but said nothing on the topic.

That has been what the discussion has looked like with those organizations and of course if people are not talking with you, but making all sorts of maneouvres behind everybody's backs, nothing good will happen.

We will see how the "discussion" goes or not in Warsaw, but since the Sections already rejected the bases of the proposals more than once, l am guessing not much will change with that. The failure of the CNT inside the lWA has been a failure of putting forward more positive proposals that would get support.

lt's too bad that the CNT lnternational Secretary instructed the members of CNTE not to vote, claiming that the Congress decided NOT to go to Warsaw. Because there are other proposals about the future of the lWA which deserved to be treated, but weren't. This attitude is part of the problem, but no need to get into it now.

Quite interested though that you say that the CNT will not claim the lWA if the lWA doesn't agree with its path. l will mention that you said this and ask if it is true.

syndicalist
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Nov 27 2016 21:59

Not that I will claim to be any expert, but i've been around the IWA since the 1970s and have a small sense of some things. And I would say that throughout all these years, the CNT has played both positive and negative roles inside the IWA. It often dominated what "line" others should take. It has always been CNT-centric. So I am not of the point of view that things just happened by magic in regard to the CNT.

I will look at the links later, thanks.

If people are really interested in "correct[ing] the road together" you can start by stop poking (hincar?) each other in the eyes.

Look, we can all be bitter about real or perceived actions by individuals or sections. If this was the case, I would hate the IWA, I don't. And we owe it to all our grandmas and grandpas who came together to form, imperfectly, the IWA in 1922.

Do we solve problems and learn lessons from bad experiences? Are our replies and answers that of retaliation or ways to resolve issues at hand in a manner in which all concede on some points, make changes on others and allow each other to "save face"?

Look comrade, I am the last to tell anyone what to do. So I can only say that things to help build the IWA can be to help both larger and smaller organizations find common grounds, as equals. When we fight on the job, we fight for everyone to be treated the same, right? I mean this is a basic union point of view. In our union and struggle activities, we try and help those smaller and often times less tested locals and members learn how to grow, develop and so forth. Not by belittling their lack of real or perceived strength, but through patient and slow efforts in developing, educating, struggling beside and in solidarity with them, right?

It is much easier to say, I am bigger, I am badder, never make mistakes. I am all knowledgable, ridicule those who you may not like, It's a lot harder to be humble and measure up a situation that may not be 100% And take the measurement in a way that is ultimately helpful to all.

Those who play with matches, with fire can either get burnt. Or be intellect enough to figure out a way not to cause a forest fire and extinguish the small flicker of flames before they become a forest fire.

Comrades may not have to love each other or even like each other. But those who are serious about keeping the IWA in tact and moving forward might want to try and navigate the stormy waters
in ways that provide for each participating organization to feel they have neither won nor loss at the expense of another. That the stormy ocean will eventually lead to calmer water. And, in time, that those waters will lead to the safe harbor of a functional and respectful unity.

I apologize for writing only in english and if i used any terms unfamiliar in other languages.

EDIT: I did not see Akai's posting until I posted mine.

bizantino
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Nov 27 2016 22:44

One of the things we do not like in cnt other than being judged, chased and lying, is that we have no equality in the IWA. If a union of 200 people has one vote and one of 3000 one vote, the weight of each member in that union is 0.0003, compared to a 0.005 of the 200 people.
On the other hand, when it comes to collaborating and paying, it is more expensive for the 3000.

We find that the militant of the big union has to assume the agreements in which it has no power of decision and it is up to him to contribute more people to realize those agreements and to sustain economically everything.

It is not fair and people refuse to this unjust situation, it is like a communist organization in which some command and the others respect.

We do not want an organization with elites.

syndicalist
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Nov 27 2016 22:53

Comrade, and for decades ALL of us had to go along with almost everything the CNT-AIT proposed. More times than not out of respect for the CNT's historic standing. remember, it was a majority of "small" sections that stood with the CNT-AIT in the fight for historical patrimony, in the CNT-AIT policy of "no contact" and in having to agree to basically a CNT-AIT oriented method of working class organization.

That said, I recognize the problem of having to be outvoted. And it will happen from time to time.
By the same token, to say you are under 100 members, you will only have a seat in the waiting room is a bit, well, to use your words, "is like a communist organization in which some command and the others respect." I suppose winning people over to your position (any position, not just now) will gain votes. And I suppose if comrades actually start acting like comrades, there will be less worry about losing votes.

MT
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Nov 27 2016 23:23

syndicalist, i see what you mean, but i am afraid that you did not take into account another serious problem - power games of CNT leaders not on international but also on local level. i think that there is no turning back.

the congress in barakaldo was obviously a failure which the power players who started their adventures did not expect.

but what CNT leaders did to the IWA is just an extension of what they did to CNT "at home" - problems and divisions. in case of the CNT it is perhaps the fault of the CNT itself that something like that was allowed. in case of IWA, it was quite lucky that it stood up against the "THE CNT" (and USI and FAU) and did it in a democratic way. all the actions against the parallelists were approved by the sections and the only thing the troika could say is that the iwa secretariat is to be blamed for things preceeding developments that lead to the current situation. crazy...

FAU can be happy that they gained support for their specific concept of anarchosyndicalism and federalism in CNT. because with THE CNT they could play a bigger game. just take a look at the IWW in US. it sufficed to say that CNT is organizing some solidarity conference and hide the fact which was clear from the beginning (that it is a "refoundation congress") and just because it is CNT, most of the people (as it seems) decided to ignore reality. such is the power of authority (if you know how to play with it). will anyone care? no, because in the end, nothing much happened, iww just "observed". but whatever, it for the iww folks to rationalize or understand things in bigger picture and live with the consequences... it is good for FAU also in other aspect. all the dirty work was done by CNT (leaders). so in the end FAU will end up as rather neutral in this mess and can create other alliances (for example with people who have no problem being friendly with fascists and having a LOOONG record of executivism and manouvers in Poland).

CNT leaders always come with some tricks and deceits and sleaziness. they won't stop. it is said, yes. but let's look at it as an important refreshing process. rather this than having to fight tiring conflicts with people who are simply not on the same side.

let's try to find positive aspects of parting our ways with these power- and money-hungry imposters. for the better of the IWA. bizantine can go on being delirious, others can repeat what was discussed here months and weeks ago, but for those who still have some brains, it should be quite clear now what this is all about...

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axxs
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Nov 27 2016 23:25
Quote:
One of the things we do not like in cnt other than being judged, chased and lying, is that we have no equality in the IWA. If a union of 200 people has one vote and one of 3000 one vote, the weight of each member in that union is 0.0003, compared to a 0.005 of the 200 people.
On the other hand, when it comes to collaborating and paying, it is more expensive for the 3000.

It is not more expensive for the 3000. Each worker pays dues, dues go to the IWA based on the workers.

The structure only facilitates that which comes from below, and Comrade you seem to be thinking in what comes across as similar of nation states. We are all fighting for the same thing, the structures we use are simply the mechanism that our decisions travel by, from below via agreements based on the management of things, not people.

So what exactly am I taking from you in power as a member of the ASF? Or is all this just up in the air ideas over power rather than solid examples of how you are being 'exploited' by other sections such as myself as a worker?

What power exactly do you need that I am taking from you? If this is so I will be the first to stand up in my section and raise the issue of the inequality that you suffer under. touch one touch all

bizantino
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Nov 28 2016 00:20

Of course the CNT made mistakes in the past, that nobody denies it, I recommend the articles previously posted to understand the social turn that the CNT has experienced in relatively short time, of being groups that were only dedicated to throwing criticisms at everything and not Acting alone to have more presence and social support.

For any libertarian equality in the decisions should be a mantra I personally morally I can not miluitar in an organization where I am being denied that I can decide, if instead I was told until you are a consolidated organization with a minimum number that shows that I have Activity and it will help me grow I would not complain.

But I see that I am in an organization where the consequences of carrying out an agreement can be important, I want to be sure that I first heard and be taken into account. Second, that the other unions are minimally serious and implanted in their country that they will take that agreement as seriously as I and they will develop it.

That is given in organizations implanted, can not be given even if you want in a group of 30 in a country, that group should not get into the mess of taking local activity to use their time in Byzantine debates and activities that exceed their These groups need to be supported and supported.

Due to this lack of internal democracy, we have agreed to all the unions in the Zaragoza Congress to see what the critical organizations of the IWA think and those that would not enter the IWA, after seeing the opinion of the organizations that are in the IWA without the interference of the secretariat Of the IWA, face to face in the conference of warsaw. And if you do not want a democratic IWA, continue doing Internationalist work with whoever it is.

By the way the meeting of Barakaldo is not a congress, it is a meeting to change impressions. It has been pleasant to see that many unions have participated with a minimum implementation in their countries.

You will miss seeing how they breathe in egypt and turkey.

syndicalist
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Nov 28 2016 00:54

I think I said all I can. I will leave it to all the train engineers to see if they stay on track or crash.

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axxs
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Nov 28 2016 02:08

"For any libertarian equality in the decisions should be a mantra"

Then who is it comrade, that is wishing to strip others of the ability to be involved in decision making?

akai
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Nov 28 2016 06:01

Well, more and more capitalist logic coming here. We pay dues, the same rate as Spain (although they don't pay since the executives decided themselves, before lWA Congress, just not to forward them). For some unions, this takes up a large portion of their dues. CNT members pay at least 10 euros, in Poland we are lucky if we can collect 2 euros from most workers since there are a lot of very poor people. On top of that, CNT has had millions of euros in inherited wealth. Still they repeat all the time that it is "more expensive" for them. This shows just how self-centered they are. lt's the same money for each individual, and for the poor workers or groups that have little money and no inherited wealth, it is expensive.

Same stupidity with voting logic. lf some group has 200 people and 20 votes, but only 20 people take part in the voting, which is a typical pattern in those kinds of organizations, then each person has one vote. lf an organization is 20 people with 2 votes, and all 20 people take part in voting, they each have .1 votes. ln the first situation, representative power is accumulated, and this is what is happening, the times of the "representatives" of the working class as opposed to more horizontal ideas where everybody comes and has their say and are treated on an equal basis.

No thanks.

bizantino
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Nov 28 2016 06:19

In the previous post I explain everything and I think it is understood.

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axxs
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Nov 28 2016 06:53
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In the previous post I explain everything and I think it is understood.

Yes, you have explained your position and it is very well understood. You have made it very clear that the CNT sees it as justified to strip workers such as myself the ability to take part in decision making, to relegate us to observers of your 'internationalism', as we are not mature enough to stand beside you in struggle.

I guess some comrades are more equal than others?

MT
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Nov 28 2016 08:17
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By the way the meeting of Barakaldo is not a congress, it is a meeting to change impressions.

1) You lie - Barakadlo (Bilbao) was promoted as a meeting to refound the IWA.

2) Change impressions? What the hell are you talking about?

The same with the sudden desperate need for your leaders to come to the IWA Congress to explain bullshit. There will be delegates with mandates from their organizations, so are you saying that CNT leaders will come and try to change those mandates? (It would make sense seeing the authoritarian practice in the CNT where individual leaders do what they please without any mandates...)

bizantino
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Nov 28 2016 14:55

1) CNT promotes the meeting in baracaldo by mandate of the unions in a congress, to see the views from other perspectives of the authoritarian drift that the AIT takes. To see if it is still a useful tool and see what axes they want to work within Internationalism.

In case of putting the AIT not put a stop to that drift to work with others at international level. In that case neglects that many consider that the AIT is hollow content and there is no interest in fighting for three letters with much history and little future.

2) Exchange of impressions, it is that, change of impressions, as the other organizations see it.

If the unions' assemblies are an authoritative organ for you, you have to look at it, the CNT delegates to the congress have a clear mandate to convey to the AIT unions as they have also had their delegates in Baracaldo.

Authoritarian practice is to expel the FAU from the AIT, authoritarian practice is iponer agreements without leaving choice to the members to decide, authoritarian practice is to interfere in the internal affairs of each organization (as has been done with unions in france, italy, germany, spain, EEUU ...), authoritarian practice is to question the agreements of an organization, authoritarian practice is to try to direct the table of a congress without anyone choosing it as a table, etc ...

syndicalist
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Nov 28 2016 15:03

What is the "authoritarian practice....in the eeuu"?
I live in the eeuu so I will be very curious what you're refering to

MT
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Nov 28 2016 15:04

It is very hard to comment on someone who is delirious. I give up. It is tiring and nothing new is said anyway.

bizantino
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Nov 28 2016 15:16

For the mythical and well-known defamations of the secretary of the IWA.

Yes, a delirium adjusted to reality yes.

Sadly nothing new.

akai
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Nov 28 2016 15:40

Yeah, obviously the tactic is float as many lies or half-truths as possible to people. Pathetic.

syndicalist
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Nov 28 2016 15:47
bizantino wrote:
For the mythical and well-known defamations of the secretary of the IWA .

I will address later.

bizantino
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Nov 28 2016 15:50

Yeah, obviously the tactic is float as many lies or half-truths as possible to people. Pathetic.

My ethics do not allow me to fall so low, but if you are a secretary who practices this strategy on a daily basis, you just have to read it in the forums and in the documentation that you send as secretary of the AIT.

Deny that you have expelled the FAU without a mandate (there is no figure of the suspension, you have invented it)

Deny that you interfere and have interfered in the affairs of at least four organizations.

Deny that you tried to take the moderation table of a congress.

Deny that you insult, extend and lie to the decisions and members of CNT

Deny that you were inside the IP and for personal reasons you left her and mounted the ZSP.

To know that more cloudy things we do not know ....

bizantino
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Nov 28 2016 16:02

At CNT when a secretary oversteps his duties we expel him as the previous secretary.

Such aberrations are allowed at AIT, but the weight of the story will fall on your head not as the worst secretary of the AIT but as the person who destroyed the AIT.

akai
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Nov 28 2016 19:24

Sorry, am a bit busy for the nonsense of a slanderer who is a bit looney, is making up a number of things and doesn't even sign his own name.

syndicalist
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Nov 29 2016 18:59
Quote:
[quote-bizantino]For the mythical and well-known defamations of the secretary of the IWA .

I do not know you bizantino or have worked with you, that I am aware. So I have no idea if you were active in the CNT-AIT when we first came on board the IWA in 1979. If you have been around for all or part of the time, I am surprised by what seems like you blaming all historical IWA problems on the current Secretariat.

That said, I feel compelled to speak freely and completely here. Unlike those who have allegedly been IWA comrades over the years. Those who fell silent when their voices were most needed.

If it is unclear, I am a member of the Workers Solidarity Alliance (WSA), the organization I suppose you were referencing when mentioning in the EE.UU (US).

Let me say, and let be very clear, that the current IWA Secretariat and their Section had nothing to do with the undemocratic expulsion of WSA from the IWA in 1999. In fact, I do not even think they were part of the IWA at that time. So you can stop putting the US on a list to beat the current Secretariat over the head with.

In terms of the US and the IWA in the past let me say a few things from the heart.

While I probably bear the most anger at the IWA, and its Sections, as I was personally and attacked in the most uncomradely manner, and while you and your CNT and all others but our old friends in the FAU, stood by and allowed attack, after attack on us, without ever giving us a chance to present the facts as we know them, have the cajones to talk about injustices towards some in the present day IWA? When you claim a high moral ground and walked away from an IWA Section, a dedicated section, one which whose members future members stood with the CNT since Francos days in power, have the cajones to talk about justice, democracy and so forth? At least the WSA, while having sections, and comrades we have know for years turn their backs on us, deny us the right to present our situation, sought to at least struggle inside the IWA, asking for all internal procedures to be exhausted and were meet with the silence of all, including you CNT.

Yes, you want to talk about the EE.UU situation and how the big CNT turned its back on the American comrades over the several years we sought out an internal IWA hearing, lets have it. Because I guarantee you folks will do it again and again to others.Because for most of you, its not what you have done or are doing, it is what you will do for me today is how the CNT and others act.

In the long run, it's not about personal injustices. Its about seeing that a collective process, that a collective method of moving forward, sometimes slowly, sometimes painfully, but forward in a manner that respects internal process, that respects all Sections, large or small, that has a goal of being more than the big fish in a small pond.

bizantino
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Nov 28 2016 23:17

I am an ant who works day by day for anarchism, but neglect that if we ever agree I will presentare, a pity that I do not know English, because all this that I am telling you I would gladly tell you from you to you.

syndicalist
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Nov 28 2016 23:20
bizantino wrote:
I am an ant who works day by day for anarchism, but neglect that if we ever agree I will presentare, a pity that I do not know English, because all this that I am telling you I would gladly tell you from you to you.

Funny, how you can find ways to attack and then claim some excuse when directly confronted by an act you are all guilty of.

bizantino
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Nov 28 2016 23:40

Do not worry then, I'll repeat all this and more in Spanish, it's going to be weird but good.

syndicalist
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Nov 28 2016 23:49
bizantino wrote:
Do not worry then, I'll repeat all this and more in Spanish, it's going to be weird but good.

I'm sure it will be weird. I can't wait to see what you have to say about the EE.UU

bizantino
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Nov 29 2016 00:21

I talk about the AIT secretary, not your American partner until today and I do not mean to offend (until a few days ago when the CNT again took to the streets many people thought that the CNT had disappeared) I thought the WSA was extinct, I do not know everything about her. When I spoke about the United States of America, I spoke about the IWW.

syndicalist
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Nov 29 2016 01:10
bizantino wrote:
I talk about the AIT secretary, not your American partner until today and I do not mean to offend (until a few days ago when the CNT again took to the streets many people thought that the CNT had disappeared) I thought the WSA was extinct, I do not know everything about her. When I spoke about the United States of America, I spoke about the IWW.

No idea what you are talking about with "American partner". Anyway, I will wait for your Spanish writings. Maybe then I will understand what you mean about the US. That said, IWA problems do no exist in a vacuum and have many years in the making, even before the current Secretariat

akai
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Nov 29 2016 07:02

Aha, I have interfered with the affairs of the American section, the IWW. smile