EDL

Arthur. It's been pointed out to you time and over again that the government has indeed reacted (or even been pro-active), and that this is a large part of why Muslims have been demonized on the one hand and radicalized on the other. It is in this context that the EDL was formed. Like it or not, but you are the government's willing shock troops against immigrants in general.

How does the first section in bold lead to the second? Like, what's the thought process? You seem to be accusing the govt of using Islamic fundamentalism as a divisory tactic but if so, then you (the EDL) are playing along with it.

To be honest i think Arthur represents a small portion of the people in EDL and increasingly I think that the EDL poses one of the biggest threats to working class unity. Whether they're fascists or not I don't care, some are and some aren't but unless an alternative movement develops that is progressive then we will return to the days of the 1970/1980s.

Have a look at this old AFA video to give a sense of what our comrades were up against: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds4CTEyN3rc&feature=channel

When the racists and fascists are incapable of gaining a hearing by other means they're reduced to soft selling their drivel. Socially backward Islam is a fine bogeyman used by everyone from the swiss right in their anti minaret campaign, to the american state in its' geo-strategic oil profit driven "War on Terror".

When the racists and fascists are incapable of gaining a hearing by other means they're reduced to soft selling their drivel. Socially backward Islam is a fine bogeyman used by everyone from the swiss right in their anti minaret campaign, to the american state in its' geo-strategic oil profit driven "War on Terror".

Arthur. What is Islamist ideology/politics? Is wanting to build mosques with minarets Islamo fascist? You again homogenize an entire religion, not appreciating theological differences and the political differences within that heterogenous category referred to as political Islam.

And, you need to get your numbers right. 60% percent refers to number of voters, not citizens. Switzerland have referendums all the time and in this case voter turnout was 55%. If you say about 1/3 of the population is not of voting age then you get to the real number.

In addition, it was the far right-wing party who basically are racist that called the referendum. Are these the kinds of folks you see yourself in league with? They're not that far from the BNP.

There is overwhelming evidence of the prevalence of anti-Muslim/anti-immigrant paranoia, yes. That's not evidence for Islam being fascist or whatever.

But there is a difference between the opinions of most Muslim folk, who use their religion as a way of explaining why everyone should be nice to each other, and the politics and ideology of radical Islam which are totalitarian and by any definition close to fascism.

Yeah, and I'm sure that a majority of Swiss voters voting against bloody minarets is a result of their keen understanding of this difference, and that this will push Muslims away from the radicals.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that hard-and-fast distinction between the evil radical Muslims and the hard-working/ordinary Muslims.

Fucksake, Islam is just as much a tool of class oppression as any other major religion: same goes for Buddhism, Christianity, Quakerism, etc. No matter how hard-working or ordinary a given Muslim is, they still hold beliefs which are reactionary as fuck, and have nothing to do with "explaining why everyone should be nice to each other" or some dumb crap like that.

~J.

I thought we were talking about the vote in Switzerland, where the situation is different. In any case, their vote is evidence for their paranoia, not for anything bad about "Muslim ideology", or whatever the hell that means.

I think it's silly that they're opposed to building minarets, it's paranoid and senseless. They've forbidden a particular form of architecture. How will that help women, gays, former Muslims and the victims of honor killings? What will that do other than make every single Muslim, or Muslim-related individual, feel unwelcome?

It's possible that my English simply isn't that good, but I really can't make any sense of this sentence at all.

So Arthur are you going to answer these questions?

So in fact EDL have no point in existing, since other groups are doing, what you claim to be doing but strangely without attracting loads of Fascists and racists.

Ok, now is the time I'll start saying that maybe Arthur should just fuck off. He's not replying to any questions anymore. He's not even trying and instead just keeps saying "b-b-but what about the Islamofascist... everyone hates them so you should as well".

Arthur, please start responding to questions. You're no longer engaging anyone in good faith.

You forgot to mention that they had this to say about the EDL

... which is rather like saying Hitler wasn't a racist because he allied himself to the Japanese, and they aren't white either.

~J.

Don't listen to this prick. EDL are a bunch of fascists, I know because they have accused me of being a terrorist for sticking up for my atheist beliefs on youtube. Also they didn't believe I was white and called me a 'third world piece of shit'. You EDL ARE A BUNCH OF DEGENERATE NATIONALISTS, FUCK OFF!!!

admin - this is a no flaming forum. Arthur is being polite here so please respond in kind

Well, I thought that you had made it very clear earlier in the thread how the government in the UK is making people feel this way. I imagine similar processes are at work throughout the continent. None of this reflects in any meaningful way on the "dangers" of radical Islamofascism.

Anyway, you should probably rename your website the "Real EDL", just so people don't confuse you with all those fake EDL people, who just happen to be the bulk of the people that come to EDL demos, though I'm sure that that's entirely circumstantial.

Arthur

This is the nub of the difference between your nationalist position and the internationalism defended by the vast majority of those who post on here

You protest that nationalism does not mean you are a racist, very true it does not. But that does not make any the less pernicious. Why do we say this, because it puts nation and nationality before class. The millions who were slaughtered in WW1 believed they were fighting for democracy, queen and country, or democracy Kaiser and country. In WW2 millions of workers were murdered in the name of defending democracy and fighting Nazism, (the queen and country guff didn't wash so well after the horror of WW1) when in reality they were killing their class brothers in the interests of the ruling class. A ruling class in the case of Britain that ruled a vast empire which it maintained with brutal terror and by stirring up racial, ethnic and national differences. In the case of the US, not much needs to be said about the situation of segregation that existed. Internationalism is so important and fundamental to us because once you make any concession to nationalism you can only defend the ruling class.

As with others i agree that you clearly do not believe you are a racist, and have a real dislike of the government etc. And it is clear that this sense of being faced with a society in increasing chaos is felt strongly in the working class. But to see the cause of this in radical islam is to fall hook line and sinker for the campaign of those you detest: Brown etc. They want the EDLs out on the streets protesting about 'radical islam' the stealing of 'Englishness', any thing but blame capitalism. For all your protests about not wanting to, you end up being the cannon fodder of the ruling class.

The setting up of one ethnic group, nationality, region as the cause of all our woes etc is the class divide and rule tactic of the ruling class down the century. This is why we oppose it so firmly.

Your focus on radical Islam, Shia law etc etc misses two important points;
- why does radical islam appeal to young people? Part of it is that it offers a community, a united community under Islam. It offers a community faced with the unemployment, poverty, alienation and growing Islamophobia that many youth, especially Asian face every day. This desire for a community, togetherness and security, is what appears to also behind your need to defend queen and country, as some form of stable rock in the society falling apart.
- Radical Islam is not some alien product to 'English society' its growth in the last 30 years can be directly traced to the needs of imperialism. Don't forget that in the 1980's the US and British imperialism funded and helped organise the formation of international networks of these groups in order to recruit cannon fodder for Afghanistan. In the 1990s and up until the early part of this century amongst international intelligence agencies London was known as Londonistan because of the British secrete services support for the Fundamentalist in Algeria etc. Now this same class that used these fundamentalist want you to blame them for your problems; thus helping them divided up the working class and hence maintaining their boot on the neck of all workers, be they white, black brown or yellow, Christian, Muslim, etc etc

I don't think it's going out on a limb for a lot of people to conflate nationalism with racism, especially within a framework of an anti-immigration group that attracts fascists and such.

Arthur you may find this article interesting
Antisemtism, Islamophobia: products of a rottig society