EKS dissolved itself and joined the ICC

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nastyned
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Feb 15 2009 12:43

laugh out loud

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miles
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Feb 15 2009 13:20
capricorn wrote:
pandaigdig wrote:
This development is a strong validation of the bankruptcy of all strands of activist-leftist ideologies and their organizations or parties in finding their "revolutionary" relevance in the midst of present crisis. The emergence of these left-communist groups exposes more openly the activist-leftist true nature and their "relevance": as latter-day counter-revolutionaries and defenders of capital

That's more like the ICC we used to know.

That's funny, I would have thought it was a more or less accurate description of your present politics. wink

baboon
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Feb 15 2009 16:02

Nationalism is a form of diversity and if one, wittingly or unwittingly, accepts this form, then one is effectively acting in the interests of the bourgeoisie. Internationalism on the other hand, as expressed on these boards in a couple of recent discussions, can only serve the interests of the working class, the interests of which are international.
So a warm welcome has to be given to the additions of new sections to the ICC and the long, patient and profound work that the latter has put in to bringing this to fruition. The internationalism of the working class is strengthened by the profound political and programmatic agreement that is represented by this regroupment.
I align myself to the comments of Red H above, a positive expression just as the posts of Capricorn are becoming more predictably negative and sarcastic.

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oisleep
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Feb 15 2009 16:33
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The internationalism of the working class is strengthened by the profound political and programmatic agreement that is represented by this regroupment.

in what sense is the internationalism of the working class strengthened by a couple of tiny irrelevant groups merging with each other?

seems a bit reductionist to me

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Alf
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Feb 15 2009 17:34

Capricorn, i'm not sure who pandaigdig is, but I welcome his (?) comments. Perhaps he is a sympathiser from the Philippines and very probably English is not his first language, so to mock his style shows a very shabby attitude. Politically he is right - left communists do expose the true nature of leftism.

Spikymike
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Feb 15 2009 18:21

This thread is hardly 'news' better posted under 'organisation' or 'announcements'.

It is of interest to Libcom posters of course. Combined efforts are always welcome but Oisleep is right to puncture the self importance of this announcement which adds to the ICC's breadth but not it's depth within our class, as Miles effectively acknowledges in his recognition of the relative unimportance of the whole internationalist communist milieu today.

Programatic agreement without some serious recognition of the above situation and an appropriate organisational practice which reflects that recognition, internally and externally, is problematic to say the least. The past bad practice of the ICC to which Red alludes will continue to stain that organisation so long as it continues, as Alf does, to justify it.

One can only hope that the new influx of comrades into the ICC might eventually embed a sense of proportion as to it's own place in the world and a consequently better practice.

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miles
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Feb 15 2009 18:54
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It is of interest to Libcom posters of course. Combined efforts are always welcome.

It's hardly as trivial as a "combined effort" when one group amalgamates with another, unless, of course, you want to minimise the event.

Quote:
but Oisleep is right to puncture the self importance of this announcement which adds to the ICC's breadth but not it's depth within our class,

Hardly. In case you've forgotten....

Quote:
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2009/philippines-turkey

I hope and believe that this integration of both our organisation (EKS) and of Internationalismo comrades, into the ICC, will be a positive contribution to the development of Left Communism and class struggle worldwide.

The new Turkish section of the ICC will present a balance sheet of its 2 years long activity as soon as possible.

mikail

...which is not exactly a 'self important' tone.

Quote:
Programatic agreement without some serious recognition of the above situation and an appropriate organisational practice which reflects that recognition, internally and externally, is problematic to say the least.

What does this mean, exactly? What 'organisational practice' are you proposing?

Quote:
The past bad practice of the ICC to which Red alludes will continue to stain that organisation so long as it continues, as Alf does, to justify it.

Alf wrote:

Quote:
On the specific concept of parasitism, I remain convinced it's a real question for the revolutionary movement, even if we have in my opinion made mistakes in applying the concept

(my emphasis)

As we've noted before, the ICC has publicly acknolwdged some of the errors we've made. Interestingly enough, I can't see the equivalent in many of the other organisations posting here. Any mistake the ICC made (even if it was 10/15 years ago, a la Battlescarred's accusations of 'disruption' at AF meetings) is a stick to beat us with. Of course, no one else on here has ever made any kind of a political mistake...

Quote:
One can only hope that the new influx of comrades into the ICC might eventually embed a sense of proportion as to it's own place in the world and a consequently better practice.

All new comrades which enter the ICC (and, for that matter, even those that leave) have an effect on its organisational practice. In that sense it's a dialectical relationship. As to what its correct 'place in the world' is, well thats for history to judge. Of course, we won't be going away to hide in a corner, as no doubt some posters on here would wish us to tongue

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oisleep
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Feb 15 2009 19:16
Quote:
which is not exactly a 'self important' tone.

i wasn't referring to that, i was referring to this

The internationalism of the working class is strengthened by the profound political and programmatic agreement that is represented by this regroupment

which is

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Feb 15 2009 20:08

The development of revolutionary organisations - which is an expression of the depth dimension of class consciousness as well as its breadth, despite what spikeymike says - does strengthen proletarian internationalism, largely in a molecular, subterranean kind of way until the class struggle reaches a much higher level. If it doesn't do that, why would revolutionaries bother having any activity at all?

spikey: your points about our 'bad practice' mean nothing unless you are prepared to be specific. I don't think that this thread should spill over into that discussion, but we are quite prepared to take it up elsewhere.

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jura
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Feb 15 2009 21:24

I don't wish to engage in any substantive polemic with the ICC, but being from Eastern Europe and having a bit of knowledge of what Marxism as an anti-working class ideology was like, I find statements such as

internasyonalista wrote:
The establishment of new ICC sections in the Philippines and Turkey is a clear indication of the resurgence of class struggle around the world and the increasing numbers of new elements searching for real revolutionary alternative against the decadent and dying capitalism.

both ridiculous and rather scary. I think that such self-confident and pompous tone is irreconcilable not just with marxism, but with any sort of critical thinking.

RedHughs
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Feb 15 2009 23:07
jura wrote:
I find statements such as
internasyonalista wrote:
The establishment of new ICC sections in the Philippines and Turkey is a clear indication of the resurgence of class struggle around the world and the increasing numbers of new elements searching for real revolutionary alternative against the decadent and dying capitalism.

both ridiculous and rather scary. I think that such self-confident and pompous tone is irreconcilable not just with marxism, but with any sort of critical thinking.

This is a good point. I would say that some small number of Marxists in Turkey and the Philippines joining the ICC might, if we are lucky, indicate that there is some interest in Ultra Left politics within the proletariat as world class struggle heats up. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that there is a clear indication of anything even if there might be an indication of something. Putting "clear" in front of "indication" is using rote, wooden language. If the ICC is going to grow into an organization fostering discussion, I would suggest that they discourage such language.

internasyonalista
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Feb 16 2009 01:30

jura wrote:

jura wrote:
I don't wish to engage in any substantive polemic with the ICC, but being from Eastern Europe and having a bit of knowledge of what Marxism as an anti-working class ideology was like, I find statements such as
internasyonalista wrote:
The establishment of new ICC sections in the Philippines and Turkey is a clear indication of the resurgence of class struggle around the world and the increasing numbers of new elements searching for real revolutionary alternative against the decadent and dying capitalism.

both ridiculous and rather scary. I think that such self-confident and pompous tone is irreconcilable not just with marxism, but with any sort of critical thinking.

what is "scary" of my statement? is my statement ireconcilable with marxism?

for me, regoupment of revolutionaries is very important for communism to win. the resurgence of class struggle produces these elements searching for revolutionary alternatives.

internasyonalista
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Feb 16 2009 01:53

jura wrote: I find
jura wrote:

I find statements such as
internasyonalista wrote:

Red-Hughs wrote:

Quote:
The establishment of new ICC sections in the Philippines and Turkey is a clear indication of the resurgence of class struggle around the world and the increasing numbers of new elements searching for real revolutionary alternative against the decadent and dying capitalism.
both ridiculous and rather scary. I think that such self-confident and pompous tone is irreconcilable not just with marxism, but with any sort of critical thinking.

This is a good point. I would say that some small number of Marxists in Turkey and the Philippines joining the ICC might, if we are lucky, indicate that there is some interest in Ultra Left politics within the proletariat as world class struggle heats up. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that there is a clear indication of anything even if there might be an indication of something. Putting "clear" in front of "indication" is using rote, wooden language. If the ICC is going to grow into an organization fostering discussion, I would suggest that they discourage such language.

Forgive me if my grammar in English is not as good as yours. I'm not a good English wrier as you would see. But I think its a mistake if "language bariier" or not good in writing in English could "stop or slow down the ICC in fostering discussion". Inside the ICC, language is not a barrier, more so in poor English in discussions and debate.

Class struggle produces elements/group searching for revolutionary alternative. And these groups/elements see the need for regroupment to advance the communist revolution. That is the essence of my statement regardless of "wrong grammar" or "sentence construction" AS WHAT THE GOOD ENGLISH TEACHER WANT TO BE.

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888
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Feb 16 2009 03:58
pandaigdig wrote:
This development is a strong validation of the bankruptcy of all strands of activist-leftist ideologies and their organizations or parties in finding their "revolutionary" relevance in the midst of present crisis. The emergence of these left-communist groups exposes more openly the activist-leftist true nature and their "relevance": as latter-day counter-revolutionaries and defenders of capital.

By their mere emerging and uniting together the left communists expose the bankrupt and counter revolutionary nature of all other groups! Amazing!

baboon wrote:
Nationalism is a form of diversity and if one, wittingly or unwittingly, accepts this form, then one is effectively acting in the interests of the bourgeoisie.

I don't follow this. What does diversity have to do with it?

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Devrim
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Feb 16 2009 06:24
oisleep wrote:
Quote:
which is not exactly a 'self important' tone.

i wasn't referring to that, i was referring to this

The internationalism of the working class is strengthened by the profound political and programmatic agreement that is represented by this regroupment

which is

Yes, it is, and in my opinion makes us look more than a little foolish.

Devrim

capricorn
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Feb 16 2009 08:09
888 wrote:
baboon wrote:
Nationalism is a form of diversity and if one, wittingly or unwittingly, accepts this form, then one is effectively acting in the interests of the bourgeoisie.

I don't follow this. What does diversity have to do with it?

I think Baboon could be a relative of Mrs Malaprop. On the other hand, he might be opposed to diversity as well as to diversions (which wouldn't be surprising).

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jura
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Feb 16 2009 09:21
internasyonalista wrote:
what is "scary" of my statement? is my statement ireconcilable with marxism?

It's the tone and style, and it has nothing to do with syntax or grammar (my written English is not great either). It reminds me of the sloganeering Marxist-Leninist textbooks from the 1950s that I used to read.

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miles
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Feb 16 2009 09:34

Jura: it may well remind you of the 'Marxist-Leninst text books you used to read' (presumably you mean 'Stalinist' textbooks?), but at least the position taken by Internasyonalista is clear - that these re-groupments are a clear sign of the development of the class struggle. You disagree with it, or least that's what I understood from

Quote:
I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that there is a clear indication of anything even if there might be an indication of something.

fine. But Internasyonalista makes his staement from a position of (personal) conviction, whereas you say "I don't think.." - so why is your position any more valid than ours?

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jura
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Feb 16 2009 09:47

Miles, I appreciate your interest in my opinions, but you should at least quote the right person, then. I didn't write this:

Miles quoting someone wrote:
I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that there is a clear indication of anything even if there might be an indication of something.

As I said before, I don't want to engage in a substantive polemic and I don't really care about the substance of the said statements. It was the style I was referring to, and I still think it's disgustingly self-confident, pompous and devoid of the sort of humbleness that I think should be mandatory for revolutionaries, especially in times like these. To me, this is off-putting enough to make me lose any interest in the ICC that I might otherwise have, and I guess other people see it that way too.

Oh, and I meant Marxist-Leninist textbooks -- that's the way the ideology was called officially.

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miles
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Feb 16 2009 09:47

In many ways some of the posters on here are missing the point. Yes (for us) it's a great thing the EKS and Phillipino comrades have joined the ICC, but nowhere do we claim to be the sole communist party (the clue is in the name "International Communist Current"). We firmly believe the ICC will be a part of a process leading to a world wide re-groupment to form a world communist party which will necessarily have to involve many other groups and individuals to have a 'world wide character'. That's the key aspect, not just whether one group or another have joined together.

What is the overall dynamic in the world today? Is it towards disintegration, towards a lack of any response from the working class or, as we have tried to say here, is it towards the emergence of newly politicised people / groups / discussion circles etc?

This process is going to be slow and painful, in fits and starts, but nonetheless we think the process is happening. This is a long way beyond merely 'coming together' to do 'joint actions' - this kind of political maturation is much deeper and profound and won't necessarily be obvious from the 'surface'.

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oisleep
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Feb 16 2009 10:18
Quote:
these re-groupments are a clear sign of the development of the class struggle

in what sense does two tiny groups merging with each other indicate a clear sign of the development of the class struggle? your conflating (or subsituting) your own activities - which have not changed or increased but merely been reconfigured slightly - with that of the wider class

now there may well be a development of class struggle at the moment but to posit that the merging of two pre-existing groups is a reflection, or a manifestation of this is bonkers bruno

if you had said that either of these now merged groups had experienced a signigicant increase in membership of late, then you'd have more scope to make the claim you do, however a rearrangement of the deck chairs on the titanic doesn't really justify some of the claims that have been attributed to that interanally focussed activity

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Alf
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Feb 16 2009 10:52

"This is a good point. I would say that some small number of Marxists in Turkey and the Philippines joining the ICC might, if we are lucky, indicate that there is some interest in Ultra Left politics within the proletariat as world class struggle heats up. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that there is a clear indication of anything even if there might be an indication of something. Putting "clear" in front of "indication" is using rote, wooden language. If the ICC is going to grow into an organization fostering discussion, I would suggest that they discourage such language".

That's fair enough. It's a useful precision. But on the other hand, Jura's approach gets us nowhere:

"[i]I don't really care about the substance of the said statements. It was the style I was referring to".

I don't think that immediately attacking the comrades in the Philippines for their 'style' (and there are are differences in the English/political styles in different countries) is a very fraternal way to respond to the appearance of new internationalist elements, and indifference to the substance of what they are saying is just avoiding any real debate.

miles has posed the real question; can we see the emergence of new internationalist elements around the world (not just those close to the ICC) as an expression of an emerging class consciousness or is it all just a bunch of irrelevant little groups?

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madashell
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Feb 16 2009 22:30
Alf wrote:
miles has posed the real question; can we see the emergence of new internationalist elements around the world (not just those close to the ICC) as an expression of an emerging class consciousness or is it all just a bunch of irrelevant little groups?

Well since this is one left communist group affiliating with a larger, international one, we're not talking about "the emergence of new internationalist elements around the world" here, so much as one tiny group merging with a slightly less tiny group. Now unless we're seeing a sudden, huge (and I mean really huge) surge in the number of left communists, I fail to see the signifigance of this outside of the ICC and the groups that have joined it.

Still, best of luck to you guys.

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Alf
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Feb 16 2009 16:25

new left communist groups aren't the only expression of this tendency. libcom is another....

Of course we are tiny. For all we know we may be the last desperate expression of communism before we all get engulfed in general mayhem and despair. On the other hand, we could be the first green shoots of recovery....

In any case, the EKS certainly corresponded to the emergence of new elements. The ICC was basically a product of the 68 upsurge. The EKS is a much newer phenomenon and it's by no means the only one. Does that express something beyond each small group, is it the product of an underlying trend which by its very nature won't often be plainly visible?

nastyned
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Feb 16 2009 16:54

Sounds like you're adopting 'subterranean maturation' to me Alf.

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Alf
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Feb 16 2009 18:41

"Sounds like you're adopting 'subterranean maturation' to me Alf".

And why wouldn't I?

vanilla.ice.baby
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Feb 16 2009 22:19
Alf wrote:

I don't think that immediately attacking the comrades in the Philippines for their 'style' (and there are are differences in the English/political styles in different countries) is a very fraternal way to respond to the appearance of new internationalist elements, and indifference to the substance of what they are saying is just avoiding any real debate.

Stop creating straw men, it is not the style of english that is ludicrous, but the utter pomposity of the ideas expressed by ICC members on this thread...

IrrationallyAngry
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Feb 16 2009 22:42
Alf wrote:
Does that express something beyond each small group, is it the product of an underlying trend which by its very nature won't often be plainly visible?

It's possible of course, but the numbers involved are much too small for it to be reasonable to assume or claim that.

If a thousand people worldwide were forming or joining Left Communist groups all of a sudden, that would still be so tiny a number as to give only the slightest indication that it is the product of an underlying trend in the working class. It would be worth examining to see if that indication actually means something however. A few dozen either way represents little more than background noise, I'm afraid.

The kind of pomposity with which this adherence of at most a few dozen to the ICC has been met is of course not something restricted to the ICC to be fair. One of the first things small left groups really need to break themselves of is the habit of assuming that small variations in recruitment to small groups represents either a significant social change or a vindication of a particular programme.

ernie
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Feb 17 2009 00:25

First of Mikus, I should apologise for my post it deserved a pretty robust response. It was written in haste and when very tired: two things to be avoid like the plague. Good to hear that we do share internationalism.

On the question of size: it not what you got its the way you use it!

On our getting excited about the integration of two new sections in areas of the world of such importance to the future struggles of the working class, obviously we should not expect others to be as excited as us. However, these two groups should be strengthened by joining an international organisation and their ability to put forwards internationalist positions reinforced. We are certainly being reinforced by them.

As regards language, I can see Jura point about sounding like a Stalinist text book, but the point is it is being expressed by someone who is opposing Stalinism, so a little lee way should be given. The Stalinist ideologies were selling ideology the comrade was celebrating what is a strengthening of the ability of the proletariat to put forwards internationalist positions in a country which until two years ago had not organised political organisation defending such positions. A small voice is better than none. And the emergence of such voices there and in other parts of the world (and I do not just mean groups with links to the ICC) at the same time as the upsurge in proletarian struggles surely express some form of linkage. We can debate the importance of these developments, and this discussion has given us much to think about, but something is going on within the working class. May be very small, but as someone said there is a growth of interest in the Communist Left and this has to be an expression of some form of reflection. May be we should all agree to cut a bit of slack with each other on this point.

ernie
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Feb 17 2009 00:12

Madashell

Thanks for the good wishes, much appreciated.