Gul elected as Turkish president
Aug 28 2007 15:50
http://www.guardian.co.uk/turkey/story/0,,2157641,00.html
The Guardian wrote:
The Turkish parliament today elected the foreign minister, Abdullah Gul, as president, making him the first former Islamist to hold the post.
General Yaşar Büyükanıt, Chief of the Turkish General Staff of the Turkish Armed Forces 26/8/07 wrote:
Our nation has been watching the behaviour of centres of evil, who systematically try to corrode the secular nature of the Turkish Republic. Nefarious plans emerge in different forms every day.The military will keep its determination to guard social, democratic and secular Turkey.
I think that this opens the road to a coup.
Devrim
Aug 31 2007 01:22
#2
afraser wrote:
So where does that leave us? Studied indifference? Or lesser of two evils? And if so, which is the lesser evil in this case?
Er...you realise you're talking to Devrim right?
Aug 31 2007 04:51
#3
afraser wrote:
A coup would be siezed upon by France, Germany, and others, as the excuse they are waiting for to more-or-less permanently exclude Turkey from the European Union. So I am almost tempted to say that I don't think it will happen (as you did over Scottish Independence) but I'm too aware of my ignorance of Turkish affairs for that. Full rights EU membership is perhaps becoming unlikely for Turkey anyway.
I don't think there is any chance of joining anyway, and more and more people have that opinion, and I don't think the generals are that keen on it either. They would be quite happy to be 'more-or-less permanently exclude[d]'.
Quote:
What would be the reaction of Turkish socialists and communists to a coup? On the one hand, right wing military/nationalist coups aren't exactly top of our list of desires. On the other hand, Islamist governments are way low down on the list of things to be defended. So where does that leave us? Studied indifference? Or lesser of two evils? And if so, which is the lesser evil in this case?
Well a presume you know what we would say. Some leftists will support the coup, some will support 'democracy'.
Quote:
It's all hypothetical for just now anyway - unless you think a coup really is imminent.
No, I don't. I think it is a possibility over the next six months.
Devrim
Aug 31 2007 09:10
#4
afraser wrote:
And if so, which is the lesser evil in this case?
Also, I hate this crystal ball approach to politics.
Devrim
Aug 31 2007 09:34
#5
afraser wrote:
What would be the reaction of Turkish socialists and communists to a coup? On the one hand, right wing military/nationalist coups aren't exactly top of our list of desires. On the other hand, Islamist governments are way low down on the list of things to be defended. So where does that leave us? Studied indifference? Or lesser of two evils? And if so, which is the lesser evil in this case?
Or we could leave governing to the government and just get on with trying to build workers' power...
Aug 31 2007 11:58
#6
To clarify: Will this be an Islamist government, or is it just that Gul is Islamic?
Also; is the distinction between a military-backed goverment and a 'democracy' irrelevant to workers? What have the previous secular coups done to working conditions? What could Gul's presidency hold in store for women's rights, gay rights etc.?
Aug 31 2007 12:07
#7
Quote:
To clarify: Will this be an Islamist government, or is it just that Gul is Islamic?
Gül's Party is already in Government. The previous President was a loggerheads with the government as he was an ardent secularist. Basically, Gül becoming the President has removed the army/secular faction's veto.
Quote:
Also; is the distinction between a military-backed goverment and a 'democracy' irrelevant to workers? What have the previous secular coups done to working conditions?
The last coup, 1997, had very little effect if any on the working class. The previous coup did, but it wasn't aimed at the Islamicists.
Quote:
What could Gul's presidency hold in store for women's rights, [?]
Well, it means that they will get their best chance to win the right to wear a headscarf. In my opinion nothing else will change on the level of legal rights.
Quote:
gay rights etc.?
I don't think we have those.
Devrim
Aug 31 2007 12:28
#8
There are interesting parallels to the situation in extra-green-line Palestine, where Hamas (corresponding to the Turkish Islamists) got electoral powers but was limited by the mostly Fatah-controlled security apparatus backed by Western imperialists (corresponding to Turkish secularists). That ended in a successful partial coup, as well, though Hamas had the advantage over the Islamists of having had a well-developed military wing to back up their claims. A more remotely similar situation exists in Israel (or intra-grean-line Palestine, whatever you like), where the previously secularly-based military is slowly being overtaken by national-religious soldiers, some of which are increasingly refusing politically incongruous orders (such as removing extra-green-line settlers).
This probably dredges up scares among secular Middle-Eastern governments, all of which could face the same kind of eventuality. Cooperation seems to be the order of the day, with Israel and Fatah developing closer ties, Israel and Syria backing down from border tensions which the press now claims were due to Russian misinformation on the Syrian side, etc.
PS: You still owe me one about the peasant business, Devrim.
Aug 31 2007 12:30
#9
dara wrote:
the distinction between a military-backed goverment and a 'democracy' irrelevant to workers
Aren't all governments backed by the military and the repressive apparatus? They may be openly totalitarian or play at elections, but every government's existence is based on its capacity to wield force against the rest of the population.
Aug 31 2007 12:44
#10
thanks demo, i wasn't aware of that. 
thanks for the comments dev, will resp when i have time
Aug 31 2007 12:55
#11
Well, you did make a distinction between a military-backed government and a democracy. In my experience, lurking behind the idea is a) one rests on force, and one doesn't, and b) that the latter is a lesser evil. But apologies if I jumped the gun.
A coup would be siezed upon by France, Germany, and others, as the excuse they are waiting for to more-or-less permanently exclude Turkey from the European Union. So I am almost tempted to say that I don't think it will happen (as you did over Scottish Independence
) but I'm too aware of my ignorance of Turkish affairs for that. Full rights EU membership is perhaps becoming unlikely for Turkey anyway.
What would be the reaction of Turkish socialists and communists to a coup? On the one hand, right wing military/nationalist coups aren't exactly top of our list of desires. On the other hand, Islamist governments are way low down on the list of things to be defended. So where does that leave us? Studied indifference? Or lesser of two evils? And if so, which is the lesser evil in this case?
It's all hypothetical for just now anyway - unless you think a coup really is imminent.