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Martin McGuinness 1950-2017

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Spikymike
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Mar 24 2017 11:27
Martin McGuinness 1950-2017

Martin McGuinness's recent death has brought forth a plethora of capitalist media coverage both condemning his past PIRA violence and praising his modern day 'peacemaker' role, but for anarchists and communists surely just two sides of a nasty little anti-working class nationalist no better than his opposite numbers in the Unionist gang.
See here for a brief more sober internationalist assessment:
www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2017-03-22/by-the-bullet-or-by-the-ballot

potrokin
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Mar 24 2017 23:47

A very good article. The only positive thing I can say for McGuinness is that he was likely responsible for doing in that vile abuser of children Lord Mountbatten.

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Mar 24 2017 23:01

Aye, an interesting article. As I recall, what passed for an anarchist movement in Britain and Ireland back in the day was generally sceptical of Irish nationalism (with the exception of some of WSM's positions and elements in Class War). I suspect there is much less scepticism towards nationalism these days... I'm thinking of the pro-PKK stuff doing the rounds.

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Alan52
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Mar 24 2017 23:41

As someone who was a member of the WSM for 27 years I can safely say there was never a time when they were not

Quote:
sceptical of Irish nationalism

. Practically all of their publications and policy documents, from 1984 to the present, are online. it's easy to check.

I think Serge is confusing anti-imperialism and nationalism, which perhaps is a debate for another day.

potrokin
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Mar 24 2017 23:54
Serge Forward wrote:
Aye, an interesting article. As I recall, what passed for an anarchist movement in Britain and Ireland back in the day was generally sceptical of Irish nationalism (with the exception of some of WSM's positions and elements in Class War). I suspect there is much less scepticism towards nationalism these days... I'm thinking of the pro-PKK stuff doing the rounds.

Yeah, Murray Bookchin and Janet Biehl, such luminaries of nationalism, oh and let's not forget David Graeber aswell. Whatever dude.

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Mar 25 2017 00:12
Alan52 wrote:
As someone who was a member of the WSM for 27 years I can safely say there was never a time when they were not
Quote:
sceptical of Irish nationalism

. Practically all of their publications and policy documents, from 1984 to the present, are online. it's easy to check.

I think Serge is confusing anti-imperialism and nationalism, which perhaps is a debate for another day.

Agreed. That probably is a debate for another day wink By the way, I think I might have stayed round your house in the mid 1980s!

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Mar 25 2017 00:21
potrokin wrote:
Yeah, Murray Bookchin and Janet Biehl, such luminaries of nationalism, oh and let's not forget David Graeber aswell. Whatever dude.

To be fair, some of Bookchin's stuff was top notch (I'm thinking Post-scarcity Anarchism, etc) and was far better than some of the anarchist drivel you see around. Just because his later municipalist stuff has been adopted by a nationalist group doesn't make Bookchin a nationalist.

potrokin
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Mar 28 2017 00:24
Serge Forward wrote:
potrokin wrote:
Yeah, Murray Bookchin and Janet Biehl, such luminaries of nationalism, oh and let's not forget David Graeber aswell. Whatever dude.

To be fair, some of Bookchin's stuff was top notch (I'm thinking Post-scarcity Anarchism, etc) and was far better than some of the anarchist drivel you see around. Just because his later municipalist stuff has been adopted by a nationalist group doesn't make Bookchin a nationalist.

What actual evidence is there for this claim that the PKK and PYD are nationalist? I have yet to see any.

Spikymike
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Mar 28 2017 16:14

potrokin - are you blind then? The PKK has a very long history of Kurdish nationalism and they plus their allies in Norther Syria have adjusted their equally long held objective of a separate Kurdish state, out of necessity, only to the extent of arguing for 'autonomy' within the confines of either a Turkish or Syrian democratic state. They have made alliances with various of the other imperialist powers from time to time in their efforts to achieve these aims. You might argue as some have that the PYD has a better more secular and pluralistic vision of such a state than others in the region but that is the limit of it. There are lots of other discussion threads on this site arguing out these issues (for and against) which you might choose to look up.

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Mar 29 2017 16:13

By definition, all wars in the current period are imperialist wars. Therefore, anyone who sides with one or another faction in a contemporary conflict is not a [proletarian] internationalist, and is therefore a 'nationalist'.

This internationalist-communist use of the terms 'nationalist'/'internationalist' is different from the common, everyday uses of these terms (e.g. in the bourgeois media or current political discourse, flag-waving Brexiters are nationalists, whereas the pro-EU bourgeoisie, e.g. centrist Conservatives or Lib Dems who had no problem deporting thousands, are supposedly internationalists).

potrokin
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Mar 29 2017 12:53
Spikymike wrote:
potrokin - are you blind then? The PKK has a very long history of Kurdish nationalism and they plus their allies in Norther Syria have adjusted their equally long held objective of a separate Kurdish state, out of necessity, only to the extent of arguing for 'autonomy' within the confines of either a Turkish or Syrian democratic state. They have made alliances with various of the other imperialist powers from time to time in their efforts to achieve these aims. You might argue as some have that the PYD has a better more secular and pluralistic vision of such a state than others in the region but that is the limit of it. There are lots of other discussion threads on this site arguing out these issues (for and against) which you might choose to look up.

They changed and they no longer want a state. They are not fighting for imperialism but for themselves, for their own freedom- a socialist society where people are not slaves to Islamic theocracy, where there is socialism, secularism and gender equality/feminism. They are fighting against religious-fascists and should be supported for all these reasons if you ask me. I understand that there are problems out there, they are surrounded by enemies. But what they have achieved out there is probably much closer to socialism or anarchism than we will ever get in the west with people, including most of the working-class insisting on actively supporting the system and actively supporting both conservatism and liberalism against their own interests, being divided and turning on each other.

Spikymike
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Mar 29 2017 13:26

I suppose we have to blame Serge for opening up this thread to the only indirectly related matter of the PKK's well known Kurdish nationalism and objective of a separate Kurdish dominated state or lesser state entity under their control or influence - better argued out on other earlier discussion threads. In the current war torn situation of Syria it's not difficult to see why some will support the PYD etc as 'the lesser evil' compared with ISIS but that does not deny the facts of their role in this inter-imperialist division and re-division of the world into competing states. They have changed just as the Chameleon changes it's colours.

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Mar 29 2017 15:16

Pardon me. My fault entirely. Where's the bloody ICC and the assorted left coms when you need 'em? I'm not doing their job for them anymore.

petey
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Mar 29 2017 22:37

...

potrokin wrote:
that vile abuser of children Lord Mountbatten.

i looked into that but i'm not getting good sources. do you have links?

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Mar 29 2017 23:00

Battenberrg was a paedo??? I never heard that before. Have you got any evidence for that?

potrokin
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Mar 30 2017 16:46

About as much evidence as I can find for the PYD and co being nationalist admittedly. In the case of Mountbatten though, I'd say theres probably no smoke without fire.

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Mar 30 2017 17:23
Quote:
I'd say theres probably no smoke without fire.

Do you realise what a utter pillock that makes you sound?

potrokin
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Mar 30 2017 17:37

About as much of a bawbag as you sound, claiming that the PYD are nationalists?

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Mar 30 2017 17:55

The vilest of scum tabloid journalists have built whole careers out of the "no smoke without fire" principle. Coming from someone who calls themself an anarchist makes such a comment no more palatable. As for the PYD/PKK and nationalism, you'd do well to at least do some superficial research on this group. You don't have to look far you know.

potrokin
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Mar 31 2017 06:40

Well, perhaps you have a point there but it just wouldn't suprise me if he was a paedo, I had heard that he was one by another anarchist-he was accused of it and I understand that he was friends with Jimmy Saville and introduced him to the royal family. As for the PYD etc I have researched them.

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Mar 31 2017 07:20

While I shed no tears for someone like Mountbatten... if your concept of a justice system swings between no smoke without fire and guilt by association, oh and because you once happened to hear something from some anarchist... then I'll stick with the bourgeois system, if it's all the same to you.

I'm glad you researched the PYD but you need to read more than just the pro-PYD cheerleaders. Don't get me wrong, I realise the PYD are infinitely preferable to the maniacs from ISIS. Likewise, I can also say that Jeremy Corbyn seems like a decent chap compared to that horrible Theresa May... but I'm still not going to start singing the praises of the Labour Party and say how revolutionary they've become.

petey
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Mar 31 2017 14:17
potrokin wrote:
it just wouldn't suprise me if he was a paedo, I had heard that he was one by another anarchist.

that's it?

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Mar 31 2017 17:42
potrokin wrote:
What actual evidence is there for this claim that the PKK and PYD are nationalist?

Good question.
And is there any evidence that the IRA were nationalist?

There has been many a deluded Leftist, including anarchists, that have been pro-IRA because they thought that the Provisionals were at least fighting the British capitalist state or that the IRA were somehow a working class socialist organisation.

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Apr 1 2017 09:21
potrokin wrote:
About as much evidence as I can find for the PYD and co being nationalist admittedly. In the case of Mountbatten though, I'd say theres probably no smoke without fire.

Serge said pro-nationalist, you started to talk about the PYD and PKK. That would be smoke surely...

As for the PKK literally seconds of searching will show that it's a nationalist organisation. Just because the Turkish government has brutally repressed Kurds and the PKK as well as allowing mass discrimination etc does not mean that the PKK isn't nationalist.

potrokin
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Apr 1 2017 15:26
jef costello wrote:
potrokin wrote:
About as much evidence as I can find for the PYD and co being nationalist admittedly. In the case of Mountbatten though, I'd say theres probably no smoke without fire.

Serge said pro-nationalist, you started to talk about the PYD and PKK. That would be smoke surely...

You are mistaken. Serge was the one who first mentioned both the PKK and nationalists, in response to my first post.

potrokin
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Apr 1 2017 15:33

And may I say- how fucking inane it is for seven people to vote me down simply for asking a question. Yet two people vote up jef's post, which was clearly inaccurate.

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Apr 1 2017 16:06
potrotkin wrote:
About as much evidence as I can find for the PYD and co being nationalist admittedly.

So you make wild claims, based on nothing, about Mountbatten - and do the same on the supposed non-nationalism of PYD & co. Yet a few minutes googling would find, eg;

Quote:
Mohamad is co-chair of the Movement for a Democratic Society (Tev-Dem), the alliance led by the Democratic Union Party (PYD) which governs the Syrian Kurdish areas known collectively as Rojava. ...
Sinam Mohamad said that the PYD is certainly not anarchist. She said Ocalan has read all kinds of philosophers, including anarchists. However, she told VICE News, "He has his own thought and his own philosophy."

Ocalan has abandoned Marxism as well. "Sometimes you have to change your ideas with the times," Mohamad said. "Now we need to have a democratic system." ...

The PYD and all other Syrian Kurdish parties reject separatism, and favor some kind of local control within the Syrian state. The PYD calls for autonomy in which Kurds, Arabs, Assyrians and other minorities would democratically control Rojava as part of a de-centralized Syrian nation.

"In Rojava, we see it is difficult for us to have an independent state," Mohamad said. "We are not alone. We want a democratic state for all Syrians, not a separate Kurdish state."

https://news.vice.com/article/the-heroes-of-kobane-are-looking-for-polit...

The principal moves were to renounce the goal of an independent Kurdish nation-state and to increase efforts to reach a peaceful solution to “the Kurdish issue”—especially in Turkey. In his writings, Öcalan expresses wide-reaching self-criticism regarding the past: “It has become clear that our theory, programme and praxis of the 1970s produced nothing but futile separatism and violence and, even worse, that the nationalism we should have opposed infested all of us.”

Öcalan writes further that “illuminating examples of well-functioning federations are the USA (currently the most powerful nation) and the European Union. These examples might serve as a blueprint for a solution to the Kurdish question, namely a democratic federation of the countries with Kurdish populations.” Following Öcalan’s abandonment of state nationalism, the Apoist movement now seeks self-determination within existing state borders, while hoping that the importance of such borders will diminish in the future. However, in northern Syria new borders have de facto been drawn around the autonomous cantons, reflecting an adaptation to the circumstances on the part of the PYD. http://carnegie-mec.org/diwan/55650

The ‘rejection of nationalism’ is only giving up the goal of an independent Kurdish state and replacing it with the goal of a confederation of Kurdish regional autonomies/cantons within a larger umbrella state. So not at all a rejection of nationalism and statism as structures that all must live under – unless you consider the US and EU models as anti-nationalist and anarchist.

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Apr 1 2017 17:45
potrokin wrote:
And may I say- how fucking inane it is for seven people to vote me down simply for asking a question. Yet two people vote up jef's post, which was clearly inaccurate.

I skimmed the thread again.
I may have been inaccurate but you are wrong, as red, serge and anyone else I may have missed has pointed out.

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Apr 1 2017 21:23
potrokin wrote:
And may I say- how fucking inane it is for seven people to vote me down simply for asking a question.

Ahem, case for the prosecution, yer honour, exhibit one:

potrokin wrote:
What actual evidence is there for this claim that the PKK and PYD are nationalist? I have yet to see any.

What actual evidence is there for this claim that the IRA/Sinn Fein are nationalist? I have yet to see any.

What actual evidence is there for this claim that the SNP are nationalist? I have yet to see any.

What actual evidence is there for this claim that Plaid Cymru are nationalist? I have yet to see any.

What actual evidence is there for this claim that UKIP are nationalist? I have yet to see any.

Sorry fella. Just having a laff with you grin And in the spirit of reconciliation, I've just removed my down vote and given you an up vote instead. Go in peace, chumrade.

Aaaanyway, Martin McGuinness...