Mar 12 2011 01:50
Mar 16 2011 21:50
I think the govt want to break unions wherever they find them and the one difference between Cameron and Thatcher is that Thatcher always kept the forces of repression on side. Either Cameron and mates think the response to their plans will be so crap that they don't need protecting, or they're really stupid.
Actually, another possibility is that one of the many sections of the 4th international has finally captured a bourgeois Party in Britain (the Tories*) and intends to create the conditions for a Bolshevik coup.**
Regards,
martin
* not as far fetched as it sounds. ALbert used to relate how Ellis Hillman (IIRC) was at a GLC meeting with 2 other Labour and 3 Tory councillors, and all 6 had been members of the same Trot group at one point.
** for the obtuse, this is a joke.
Mar 16 2011 22:30
After Sarkozy fought the 'banlieue uprising' he cut police numbers. He's cutting them further now to the point where CRS units were threatening hunger strikes and mass sick-ins. Funny how they normally beat people up for protesting, a bit like when politicians here start talking about how politicians in norh Africa should listen to the people.
Mar 31 2011 15:27
Birmingham prison to be privatised to G4S. 3000 soldiers ready to break strikes and work to rule
The PSO is a strong union, but whether they will be willing to disobey anti-strike laws with the knowledge the military will be sent into break it up remains to be seen.
Also privatised prisons are fucking scary. the USA has many a case of companies bribing judges to send people down in order to increase turnover. It also harms the company if they attempt to rehabilitate or reform criminals.
Mar 31 2011 15:52
So is anyone here feeling like they would support the prison guards strike? Controversial topic I know.
Btw I was surprised when I heard on the news that this was the UK's first private prison. I thought HMP Kilmarnock in Scotland was the first unless it has been re-nationalised?
Through a google I have also found another prison in Scotland that has been privitised. Have to say I found myself smiling when I heard the governor of the Kilmarnock prison was kicked unconcious by prisoners.
Quote:
FEARS have been raised over the levels of staffing at HMP Addiewell after Scotland's chief prisons inspector raised concerns about high levels of violence at the privately-run jail.
Brigadier Hugh Monro's first report on the West Lothian jail highlighted the fact that the number of assaults was seven times that experienced in HMP Kilmarnock, a high-security private prison.Between October 2009 and October 2010 there were 49 incidents of prisoner-on-staff violence - more than three times that at Saughton. Two of these were classed as serious violence.
Brig Monro, who called for the jail to carry out a probe into the attacks, said "despite staff feeling safe and treating prisoners well, the level of violence in the prison is high when compared with prisons of equivalent size and function".
He added: "Of particular concern is the number of minor staff assaults. The reasons for the high number of assaults should be examined and I will continue to monitor this whole area."
Clive Fairweather, former chief inspector of prisons for Scotland, who first inspected the violence-stricken HMP Kilmarnock in 1999 after it was completed, told the Evening News that staff shortages were often closely linked to attacks on guards and echo what he found at Kilmarnock.
He said: "The public would be utterly horrified if they knew how few staff there are in private prisons compared to public sector prisons. The only other private prison is Kilmarnock. I can remember saying to the governor I felt it was not a safe prison and it was not well enough staffed to deal with what I saw as potential violence.
"As far as I am aware HMP Kilmarnock is the only prison in Scotland where the governor was kicked unconscious by the prisoners."
"Now we have high levels of violence in another private prison. I haven't visited Addiewell, but I've always had a worries about private prisons and the number of staff there are per prisoner.
"In the end Kilmarnock upped their staff. Addiewell may have to do the same."
Steve Farrell, deputy general secretary of the Prison Service Union, agreed that staff levels in private prisons were too low but added that it was often strict government contracts which constrain private firms such as Sodexo, which operates Addiewell.
He said: "In a public prison like Glenochil, if you are short on staff you can close a wing and move prisoners around. If you did this at Addiewell, Sodexo would be fined for a contract breach.
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Inspector-slams-private-jail-over.6731645.jp
Prisoner safety and the detrimental affects of privitisation were evident when this happened in 2008-
Quote:
David Martin, 20, yesterday admitted murdering Michael Cameron during a "horrific attack" at Kilmarnock Prison on June 16 last year which was captured on CCTV.One prison officer was present while the attack took place in the health wing, but did not intervene until reinforcement's arrived.
This is in line with protocol that three custody officers should restrain any one prisoner.
Michael Clarke, a spokesman for Serco, the firm which runs Kilmarnock prison today rejected claims that the prison is understaffed.
Mar 31 2011 15:54
gypsy wrote:
So is anyone here feeling like they would support the prison guards strike? Controversial topic I know.
My first thoughts are that it doesn't really matter who is working in the prisons as they don't have control over people being sent their in the first place, unless the companies involved attempt to influence the courts. Therefore supporting a prison guards strike would not involve us supporting the imprisonment of workers.
Also the military being used to break strikes will set a terrible modern precedent, that definitely has to be opposed.
Would I support a police strike in general? Yes absolutely as it would create a bond between cops and the working class. One of the best thinks I saw from Wisconsin was when the cops initially refused to remove protestors and several joined the demonstration.
I'm not really clued up on prison officers and their attitudes and methods though, so more info is needed.
Mar 31 2011 15:59
gypsy wrote:
Btw I was surprised when I heard on the news that this was the UK's first private prison.
to clarify-I was talking about the preposed privitisation of winson green prison in Birmingham.
Mar 31 2011 16:24
Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling wrote:
Would I support a police strike in general? Yes absolutely as it would create a bond between cops and the working class.
Why? What if they are striking for longer sentences or some new weapon?
Not that I'd even support them striking for higher wages, I want their jobs be as hard as possible.
I certainly think strikes by cops and prison guards are interesting, they demonstrate that the state is in a pretty difficult situation because they usually take great care to ensure the loyalty of their uniformed thugs. But support those fuckers, only if they resign en masse.
Mar 31 2011 16:41
Peter wrote:
Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling wrote:
Would I support a police strike in general? Yes absolutely as it would create a bond between cops and the working class.Why? What if they are striking for longer sentences or some new weapon?
Not that I'd even support them striking for higher wages, I want their jobs be as hard as possible.
I certainly think strikes by cops and prison guards are interesting, they demonstrate that the state is in a pretty difficult situation because they usually take great care to ensure the loyalty of their uniformed thugs. But support those fuckers, only if they resign en masse.
Sorry should have clarified. If the cops go on strike specifically because they want better tools in which to oppress the working class then no way would I or any other revolutionary support them.
If police went out on strike en masse over conditions or pay then we would be foolish to ignore the revolutionary potential there. It's very unlikely to happen though and even if it does the cops may just turn around and fuck us over anyway, but the potential benefits would far outweigh that risk IMO.
The police as a whole are a vital instrument of the state and capitalist defence mechanism, we know that. However there are still real-life individuals amongst the rank and file, the support staff etc etc who do have the same basic relationship to capital as other workers, despite their area of work being so oppressive. I'm sure I will get slammed for being naive here, but i think it's far too simplistic to view police as a single robotic entity separate from the workings of capitalism.
Mar 31 2011 17:07
Quote:
The police as a whole are a vital instrument of the state and capitalist defence mechanism, we know that. However there are still real-life individuals amongst the rank and file, the support staff etc etc who do have the same basic relationship to capital as other workers, despite their area of work being so oppressive. I'm sure I will get slammed for being naive here, but i think it's far too simplistic to view police as a single robotic entity separate from the workings of capitalism.
The thing is once they take the job they know they are ultimately siding with the interests of the rich over the working class. Obviously there are some good coppers out there, but the majority won't side with us-they have too much to lose. I would not go out of my way to extend olive branches to them.
Mar 31 2011 17:12
gypsy wrote:
The thing is once they take the job they know they are ultimately siding with the interests of the rich over the working class. Obviously there are some good coppers out there, but the majority won't side with us-they have too much to lose. I would not go out of my way to extend olive branches to them.
I agree. However once police go on strike can they really be defined as siding with the interests of the rich? Most likely self-interest rather than a total defection admittedly.
I'm not advocating anything as I'm pretty much undecided, though I think the position in relation to capital when the police go on strike is pretty vital to whether we could support action taken by prison officers.
Mar 31 2011 18:30
Before repeating significant aspects of an argument on this old thread about a strike by screws I'd check it out first.
Mar 31 2011 19:46
Samotnaf wrote:
Before repeating significant aspects of an argument on this old thread about a strike by screws I'd check it out first.
yeh sorry your right, I should have trawled through thethe libcom bible before having the audacity to form an opinion. That thread seems to be a brief unsolved debate over whether cop strikes can ever be supported and then it degenerates into absurd strawmen. Crucially there is no discussion on whether it's as clear cut as 'us or them'.
But obviously the whole issue is done and dusted because you posted on it two years ago. Obviously don't contribute if you don't want to, but Libcommers has this habit of pre-emtively shutting down discussions because they may cover old ground.
Mar 31 2011 20:25
Take a chill pill dude.
Mar 31 2011 20:55
yeh fair enough. Safely sedated once again 
Apr 1 2011 04:51
my comment above was not a criticism of your failure to check out an old thread, just to inform you of this thread (which you had no way of knowing existed) if you want to not repeat the same old stuff.
Apr 12 2011 15:52
gypsy wrote:
Quote:
The police as a whole are a vital instrument of the state and capitalist defence mechanism, we know that. However there are still real-life individuals amongst the rank and file, the support staff etc etc who do have the same basic relationship to capital as other workers, despite their area of work being so oppressive. I'm sure I will get slammed for being naive here, but i think it's far too simplistic to view police as a single robotic entity separate from the workings of capitalism.The thing is once they take the job they know they are ultimately siding with the interests of the rich over the working class. Obviously there are some good coppers out there, but the majority won't side with us-they have too much to lose. I would not go out of my way to extend olive branches to them.
I doubt any cops think/know that when taking the job tbh.
I think the prison guard/police strikes are an interesting debate. I'm personally undecided. I think it's also worth noting that while clearly a lot/most of police and prison guard work is anti working class so is a lot of other jobs. And not all of what they do is IMO.
Even in an anarchist society there would be a need for prison guards IMO
Apr 12 2011 15:59
D wrote:
gypsy wrote:
Quote:
The police as a whole are a vital instrument of the state and capitalist defence mechanism, we know that. However there are still real-life individuals amongst the rank and file, the support staff etc etc who do have the same basic relationship to capital as other workers, despite their area of work being so oppressive. I'm sure I will get slammed for being naive here, but i think it's far too simplistic to view police as a single robotic entity separate from the workings of capitalism.The thing is once they take the job they know they are ultimately siding with the interests of the rich over the working class. Obviously there are some good coppers out there, but the majority won't side with us-they have too much to lose. I would not go out of my way to extend olive branches to them.
. And not all of what they do is IMO.
Even in an anarchist society there would be a need for prison guards IMO
I agree.
Feb 7 2012 13:45
Peter wrote:
Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling wrote:
Would I support a police strike in general? Yes absolutely as it would create a bond between cops and the working class.Why? What if they are striking for longer sentences or some new weapon?
Not that I'd even support them striking for higher wages, I want their jobs be as hard as possible.
I certainly think strikes by cops and prison guards are interesting, they demonstrate that the state is in a pretty difficult situation because they usually take great care to ensure the loyalty of their uniformed thugs. But support those fuckers, only if they resign en masse.
So Peter you want their job to be as hard as possible? How on earth will that help the welfare of prisoners inside. Have you ever been inside? I doubt it from your comments. Have you looked at the POA website to see what the strike was about? You'll see that the issues liek no stike agreements, criminalisation of industrial activity and privatisation , are issues that face the wider trade union movement. It may suprise you tha tthe leader of teh POA is black and a former member of teh Communist party. So i woudl like you to cast aside your previous stereotypes and see what a militant force Prison Officers could be and what an inspiration they could be on our current weak toadie unions.
Feb 7 2012 14:59
Turn that around, and you can ask the same questions. How will making their job easier benefit prisoners? Wouldn't that put them in an even worse position? And what's the leader of the POA being black and a Leninist got to do with the price of fish? Union militancy comes from the membership, not the figureheads up top for one, and this particular union has been jailing those challenging the current order of things in the winter riots, what possible inspiration could they offer other than a good idea what not to be like?
Can comment on articles and discussions
Though my work does not involve prisons directly it occasionally results in spending some time with some prison officers/screws, and last month the union organiser for one prison.
He was clear that the military have already been building up to break a strike at the prisons including significant training. The pointed to news story is about the mass role out of such training but at least according to him it’s not the beginning of the process.
He seemed savvy about the situation and was of the opinion that official one day stoppages or a full strike may be relatively easy for the government to deal with and it may infact be actively building for such as situation as a way to break the union and injure the trade union movement generally ala the Miners Strike etc. He was of the opinion that diverse unofficial action (such as mass unannounced sickies etc) may be more effective.
He also said that he and others from ‘his’ prison will be on the March 26th demo in London.
Why the government would be going specifically for organised workers in prisons I don’t know but my guess would be that it thinks a strike around prisons would be difficult for the wider trade union movement, the left and the working class more generally to support either emotionally or practically. It therefore might be relatively easy victory which would have a demotivating effect on the wider situation and a disciplining effect on similar relatively privileged state employees such as cops. Noteworthy here is that the cops have recently threatened demos and are now demanding the right to strike.
If a strike happens locally I normally try to give it some direct practical support but if a strike broke out at our local prison I wouldn’t be rushing to get involved - unless of course it was by prisoners against prison slavery or directly supported by prisoners (probably unlikely). The local prison has seen quite a few demos over the years and I would not want the next one to be in support of the screws! Having said this if the army does go in I doubt prisoners will be that happy about it so there may be some possibilities there for solidarity action if prisoners call for it.
Workplace struggles are rarely simple but this seems especially mixed up. What do others think? Does any one know any more about it? Any one connected to prisons care to comment?
(There is a bit of discussion (not particularly illuminating) on the unofficial:
http://prisonofficer.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7252 )