Occupy and rapes

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Steven.'s picture
Steven.
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Oct 28 2011 14:54
sawa wrote:
I don't read american news sites particularly.

I have read of at least one more incident reported where a woman was raped than in the OP.

so have I. And?

Quote:
"these, as well as other alleged sexual assaults" implies these tragic incidents in the OP are alleged too as well as other incidents that may or may not have been reported.

no it doesn't, it implies that I didn't believe a lunatic who was stating there were loads of rates all over the US, as part of the justification for saying that the police should shoot and kill the participants.

Quote:
And still what is the relevance of the right wing going on about such issues? honestly to me it feels like women are being told to shut up because of such associations.

I was merely pointing out a fact which I had observed, for the benefit of people such as yourself who may not read such news sources often.

I certainly don't think anyone should shut up about it - what happened in Glasgow is absolutely terrible, and the perpetrators deserve whatever they get. And I can't even imagine how something like that could happen in such a busy place.

Quote:
It also does matter how what you have written will be interpreted I read it as essentially not believing in victims and in a context where cunts at occupy Glasgow are implying that their protest is more important than a woman getting raped, that it was oh so convenient that this horrific incident happened when they were going to formulate policy in regards to the homeless people they had in the proximity of their camp, it is really not on.

the person alleging these rapes was not a "victim" but was a right wing nutter and liar.

What you originally said was:

Quote:
Do not ever say alleged sexual assaults this is disgusting rape apologist crap. [My emphasis]

Now I contend that this is still ridiculous. Sexual assaults can be alleged just like physical assaults. Just because something is a sexual assault doesn't mean it is automatically true - I could say that you have sexually assaulted people. Someone else referring to my allegations as such would not make them a rape apologist, any more than I am.

Anyway, we're getting into a semantic off topic discussion. Let's get back on topic.

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 28 2011 15:05

Thanks to Martin for his incredibly informative - if gutwrechingly depressing - post.

I think it's encouraging that this discussion is happening and I agree with the folk saying that this sort of stuff will - tragically - be recurrent as long as society remains as it is now. Every single occupied space I've attended (bar Lewisham Bridge AFAIK) has had to deal with some sort of harassment (usually sexual) and folk are NEVER prepared for it or even keen to implement structures or an atmosphere that might dissuade it. sad

no1
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Oct 28 2011 15:18

Steven, sava - isn't there a simple misunderstanding/clumsy use of the word 'alleged' here? In his comment Steven did not refer to allegations made by a rape victim but by a person who had no connection to the occupations. If Steven was publicly casting doubt on a rape victim's assertion, on the basis of no specific facts he had personal knowledge of, then it would indeed be a disgusting comment, but that's not the case here AFAIKS.
I think there is no politics in your disagreement, it's just a misunderstanding. so this comment seems quite needless:

Steven wrote:
It is ridiculous attitudes like this that feed people's prejudices against "political correctness", "feminists" and suchlike.
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Arbeiten
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Oct 28 2011 15:10

I second no1 wink

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Auld-bod
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Oct 28 2011 15:12

Arbeiten, you read my mind.

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fingers malone
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Oct 28 2011 15:24

Agree with No 1 and with Caiman, I have been involved in some occupations which got fantastic press all over the left and anarchist movement, and actually there was a lot of sexual harrasment going on which wasn't dealt with at all. In one case, when I went to one of the organisers I was told "We want local people involved" "You can't expect your right on lefty standards here" or something to that effect, and "none of the other women have complained".

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Oct 28 2011 15:44
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It also does matter how what you have written will be interpreted

Sure, but taking it in context is pretty important too, he mentioned it was right-wingers "using" rape as a means to slag off occupy groups etc. If you're not sure it's better to ask for clarification rather than assume it's in bad faith.

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Oct 28 2011 18:33
soc wrote:
Difficult question for sure.

I bring something in that perhaps not exactly related to the matter, but just for demonstration. I always imagined the revolutionary organisation as a organically connected network of communes. And communes would form out of family and friendship relations and also the other way around simultaneously. Communes therefore would provide the safest community that one could wish for. I know, I know, this is kind of an idea for a communist society, but...

Any protest, occupation or even strike is mostly growing out of groups of people who aren't connected in any other terms than their issue which they are fighting for or against. This doesn't provide enough basis to suppose that all other people participating in the action are reliable in other matters, such as sexuality or drunken behaviour. If otherwise alienated people get together, there's always a gamble how you can cope with them on a personal level, especially if it comes to long-term camping. To avoid the trap of setting up a kind of activist police or security force, one must look in to the organisation itself of the encampment. If there's a need, and there are lot of loosely connected people who don't know each other for long time, perhaps there's a need for separation of sexes, where women can maintain their own safety and slowly progressing to understand, get know each other during the public hours and deepen the personal relationships. Rape isn't just simply an inherent behaviour, it is closely related to the phenomena, where men doesn't feel responsible for the safety of the women around. As the personal relationship will form to a more deeper level, commune-like groups will form, and find their way of safe accommodation and harmonic sexual behaviour.

Fucking hell, I don't even know where to start. I'll address the ideas thrown up here.

A) The idea that 'family and friends' create a revolutionary organisation is just...wrong. You know sexual violence happens in activist groups, in communes, in all the places that resemble the things you seem to think idyllic, right?

B) The idea that family and friendship groups protect against rape. What? You do know that most sexual violence is perpetrated by someone known to the victim/survivor, right? Assuming that people will be protected by being in these groups is a massive fucking abdication of responsibility.

C) The idea that we should separate the sexes so that women can learn to trust men and form deeper personal relationships...because rape never happens when you have a relationship and if you trust someone that stops them being a rapist. It is essentially saying rape only happens because women don't trust men. This is untrue and victim blaming and shit and I can't BELIEVE no-one has picked you up on this.

(NB, I think that women and men should both have recourse to areas they feel safe, and if that means creating single-gender areas within a camp then obviously that's cool. The reasons given above are rubbish though, and the idea that a whole camp should be separated is basically mental)

D) The idea that rape happens when 'men doesn't feel responsible for the safety of the women around'? No. NO NO NO NO. The RESPONSIBILITY is not for OUR FUCKING SAFETY, it is NOT TO BE A RAPIST. We do not need you to 'protect' us, we need you NOT TO BE THE THREAT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I think you have TOTALLY failed to understand the root cause of rape culture, ie patriarchy, and have instead concentrated on blaming organisational failings.

Oh, and the assumption that all rapists are men and survivors women sucks too.

no1
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Oct 28 2011 19:49
lzbl wrote:
I think you have TOTALLY failed to understand the root cause of rape culture, ie patriarchy, and have instead concentrated on blaming organisational failings.

I think there has been a distinct lack of discussion on libcom about rape culture. It's obviously a deeply upsetting and depressing issue to talk about, but as a result a lot of people have quite confused or superficial ideas, and are probably reluctant to engage in discussion for fear of saying something stupid or worse than stupid. Are there any good reasonably short introductory texts available?

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Oct 28 2011 21:23
no1 wrote:
lzbl wrote:
I think you have TOTALLY failed to understand the root cause of rape culture, ie patriarchy, and have instead concentrated on blaming organisational failings.

I think there has been a distinct lack of discussion on libcom about rape culture. It's obviously a deeply upsetting and depressing issue to talk about, but as a result a lot of people have quite confused or superficial ideas, and are probably reluctant to engage in discussion for fear of saying something stupid or worse than stupid. Are there any good reasonably short introductory texts available?

Rape Culture 101 is a fairly good summary.

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Oct 28 2011 22:01
madashell wrote:
Rape Culture 101 is a fairly good summary.

Thanks for posting that.

I think its definitly worth pasting the full text.

"*Trigger warning.

Frequently, I receive requests to provide a definition of the term "rape culture." I've referred people to the Wikipedia entry on rape culture, which is pretty good, and I like the definition provided in Transforming a Rape Culture:

A rape culture is a complex of beliefs that encourages male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm.

In a rape culture both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, inevitable as death or taxes. This violence, however, is neither biologically nor divinely ordained. Much of what we accept as inevitable is in fact the expression of values and attitudes that can change.

But my correspondents—whether they are dewy noobs just coming to feminism, advanced feminists looking for a source, or disbelievers in the existence of the rape culture—always seem to be looking for something more comprehensive and less abstract: What is the rape culture? What are its borders? What does it look like and sound like and feel like?

It is not a definition for which they're looking; not really. It's a description. It's something substantive enough to reach out and touch, in all its ugly, heaving, menacing grotesquery.

Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent. Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment, as the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman, making irresistible the urge to rip open her bodice or slam her against a wall, or a wrought-iron fence, or a car hood, or pull her by her hair, or shove her onto a bed, or any one of a million other images of fight-fucking in movies and television shows and on the covers of romance novels that convey violent urges are inextricably linked with (straight) sexuality.

Rape culture is treating straight sexuality as the norm. Rape culture is lumping queer sexuality into nonconsensual sexual practices like pedophilia and bestiality. Rape culture is privileging heterosexuality because ubiquitous imagery of two adults of the same-sex engaging in egalitarian partnerships without gender-based dominance and submission undermines (erroneous) biological rationales for the rape culture's existence.

Rape culture is rape being used as a weapon, a tool of war and genocide and oppression. Rape culture is rape being used as a corrective to "cure" queer women. Rape culture is a militarized culture and "the natural product of all wars, everywhere, at all times, in all forms."

Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another ("I'll make you my bitch"). Rape culture is making rape a ubiquitous part of male-exclusive bonding. Rape culture is ignoring the cavernous need for men's prison reform in part because the threat of being raped in prison is considered an acceptable deterrent to committing crime, and the threat only works if actual men are actually being raped.

Rape culture is 1 in 6 women being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is not even talking about the reality that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives. Rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women's daily movements. Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you're alone, if you're with a stranger, if you're in a group, if you're in a group of strangers, if it's dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you're carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you're wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, who's around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where you can see who's at the door before they can see you, to check before you open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn't follow all the rules it's your fault.

Rape culture is victim-blaming. Rape culture is a judge blaming a child for her own rape. Rape culture is a minister blaming his child victims. Rape culture is accusing a child of enjoying being held hostage, raped, and tortured. Rape culture is spending enormous amounts of time finding any reason at all that a victim can be blamed for hir own rape.

Rape culture is judges banning the use of the word rape in the courtroom. Rape culture is the media using euphemisms for sexual assault. Rape culture is stories about rape being featured in the Odd News.

Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to "learn common sense" or "be more responsible" or "be aware of barroom risks" or "avoid these places" or "don't dress this way," and failing to admonish men to not rape.

Rape culture is "nothing" being the most frequent answer to a question about what people have been formally taught about rape.

Rape culture is boys under 10 years old knowing how to rape.

Rape culture is the idea that only certain people rape—and only certain people get raped. Rape culture is ignoring that the thing about rapists is that they rape people. They rape people who are strong and people who are weak, people who are smart and people who are dumb, people who fight back and people who submit just to get it over with, people who are sluts and people who are prudes, people who rich and people who are poor, people who are tall and people who are short, people who are fat and people who are thin, people who are blind and people who are sighted, people who are deaf and people who can hear, people of every race and shape and size and ability and circumstance.

Rape culture is the narrative that sex workers can't be raped. Rape culture is the assertion that wives can't be raped. Rape culture is the contention that only nice girls can be raped.

Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is bad fucking luck. Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist. Rape culture is avoiding talking about what an absurdly unreasonable expectation that is, since rapists don't announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple.

Rape culture is people meant to protect you raping you instead—like parents, teachers, doctors, ministers, cops, soldiers, self-defense instructors.

Rape culture is a serial rapist being appointed to a federal panel that makes decisions regarding women's health.

Rape culture is a ruling that says women cannot withdraw consent once sex commences.

Rape culture is a collective understanding about classifications of rapists: The "normal" rapist (whose crime is most likely to be dismissed with a "boys will be boys" sort of jocular apologia) is the man who forces himself on attractive women, women his age in fine health and form, whose crime is disturbingly understandable to his male defenders. The "real sickos" are the men who go after children, old ladies, the disabled, accident victims languishing in comas—the sort of people who can't fight back, whose rape is difficult to imagine as titillating, unlike the rape of "pretty girls," so easily cast in a fight-fuck fantasy of squealing and squirming and eventual relenting to the "flattery" of being raped.

Rape culture is the insistence on trying to distinguish between different kinds of rape via the use of terms like "gray rape" or "date rape."

Rape culture is pervasive narratives about rape that exist despite evidence to the contrary. Rape culture is pervasive imagery of stranger rape, even though women are three times more likely to be raped by someone they know than a stranger, and nine times more likely to be raped in their home, the home of someone they know, or anywhere else than being raped on the street, making what is commonly referred to as "date rape" by far the most prevalent type of rape. Rape culture is pervasive insistence that false reports are common, although they are less common (1.6%) than false reports of auto theft (2.6%). Rape culture is pervasive claims that women make rape accusations willy-nilly, when 61% of rapes remain unreported.

Rape culture is the pervasive narrative that there is a "typical" way to behave after being raped, instead of the acknowledgment that responses to rape are as varied as its victims, that, immediately following a rape, some women go into shock; some are lucid; some are angry; some are ashamed; some are stoic; some are erratic; some want to report it; some don't; some will act out; some will crawl inside themselves; some will have healthy sex lives; some never will again.

Rape culture is the pervasive narrative that a rape victim who reports hir rape is readily believed and well-supported, instead of acknowledging that reporting a rape is a huge personal investment, a difficult process that can be embarrassing, shameful, hurtful, frustrating, and too often unfulfilling. Rape culture is ignoring that there is very little incentive to report a rape; it's a terrible experience with a small likelihood of seeing justice served.

Rape culture is hospitals that won't do rape kits, disbelieving law enforcement, unmotivated prosecutors, hostile judges, victim-blaming juries, and paltry sentencing.

Rape culture is the fact that higher incidents of rape tend to correlate with lower conviction rates.

Rape culture is silence around rape in the national discourse, and in rape victims' homes. Rape culture is treating surviving rape as something of which to be ashamed. Rape culture is families torn apart because of rape allegations that are disbelieved or ignored or sunk to the bottom of a deep, dark sea in an iron vault of secrecy and silence.

Rape culture is the objectification of women, which is part of a dehumanizing process that renders consent irrelevant. Rape culture is treating women's bodies like public property. Rape culture is street harassment and groping on public transportation and equating raped women's bodies to a man walking around with valuables hanging out of his pockets. Rape culture is most men being so far removed from the threat of rape that invoking property theft is evidently the closest thing many of them can imagine to being forcibly subjected to a sexual assault.

Rape culture is treating 13-year-old girls like trophies for men regarded as great artists.

Rape culture is ignoring the way in which professional environments that treat sexual access to female subordinates as entitlements of successful men can be coercive and compromise enthusiastic consent.

Rape culture is a convicted rapist getting a standing ovation at Cannes, a cameo in a hit movie, and a career resurgence in which he can joke about how he hates seeing people get hurt.

Rape culture is when running dogfights is said to elicit more outrage than raping a woman would.

Rape culture is blurred lines between persistence and coercion. Rape culture is treating diminished capacity to consent as the natural path to sexual activity.

Rape culture is pretending that non-physical sexual assaults, like peeping tomming, is totally unrelated to brutal and physical sexual assaults, rather than viewing them on a continuum of sexual assault.

Rape culture is diminishing the gravity of any sexual assault, attempted sexual assault, or culture of actual or potential coercion in any way.

Rape culture is using the word "rape" to describe something that has been done to you other than a forced or coerced sex act. Rape culture is saying things like "That ATM raped me with a huge fee" or "The IRS raped me on my taxes."

Rape culture is rape being used as entertainment, in movies and television shows and books and in video games.

Rape culture is television shows and movies leaving rape out of situations where it would be a present and significant threat in real life.

Rape culture is Amazon offering to locate "rape" products for you.

Rape culture is rape jokes. Rape culture is rape jokes on t-shirts, rape jokes in college newspapers, rape jokes in soldiers' home videos, rape jokes on the radio, rape jokes on news broadcasts, rape jokes in magazines, rape jokes in viral videos, rape jokes in promotions for children's movies, rape jokes on Page Six (and again!), rape jokes on the funny pages, rape jokes on TV shows, rape jokes on the campaign trail, rape jokes on Halloween, rape jokes in online content by famous people, rape jokes in online content by non-famous people, rape jokes in headlines, rape jokes onstage at clubs, rape jokes in politics, rape jokes in one-woman shows, rape jokes in print campaigns, rape jokes in movies, rape jokes in cartoons, rape jokes in nightclubs, rape jokes on MTV, rape jokes on late-night chat shows, rape jokes in tattoos, rape jokes in stand-up comedy, rape jokes on websites, rape jokes at awards shows, rape jokes in online contests, rape jokes in movie trailers, rape jokes on the sides of buses, rape jokes on cultural institutions…

Rape culture is people objecting to the detritus of the rape culture being called oversensitive, rather than people who perpetuate the rape culture being regarded as not sensitive enough.

Rape culture is the myriad ways in which rape is tacitly and overtly abetted and encouraged having saturated every corner of our culture so thoroughly that people can't easily wrap their heads around what the rape culture actually is.

That's hardly everything. It's merely the tip of an unfathomable iceberg."

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Oct 28 2011 22:02

I second lzbl, who has put it better than i could, and also the blog that Martin O Neil quoted.

I'm depressingly not at all surprised that rape and sexual assault has occured at some of the Occupy sites, or at the response. But that doesn't make the actual fact of it any less depressing. Fuck. sad angry

sawa
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Oct 29 2011 14:22

It is ridiculous attitudes like this that feed people's prejudices against "political correctness", "feminists" and suchlike.

No it is peoples male privilege or internalising their own oppression that makes them hostile to Feminism. admin: no flaming trying to tell women how they should go about doing feminism which is what you are implying. Feminism is a safe space for women where we should be free to try and express our experiences of oppression. It is no place for men to tell women they should pander to men in how they express themselves, package feminism nice and male privilege friendly.

Rob Ray wrote:
Quote:
It also does matter how what you have written will be interpreted

Sure, but taking it in context is pretty important too, he mentioned it was right-wingers "using" rape as a means to slag off occupy groups etc. If you're not sure it's better to ask for clarification rather than assume it's in bad faith.

I don't care if right wingers are using rape to slag off occupy groups that reflects less badly on them as unlike a lot involved in occupy groups they can see it is a prevalent problem.
According to someone i know someone at a general meeting of occupy Glasgow said they don't need to be too concerned, or accept any responsibility for the tragic rape of the woman because there have been nine sexual assaults in occupy camps. NINE.

I don't see why I should have to take things in good faith. Maybe men need to be aware of their privilege and be careful of what language they use.

Some of us in Glasgow are hoping to organise so we can counter these things when they happen in our organisations, our occupations. Safer spaces policies are not enough. Dunno if anyone on here is in Glasgow or whatever?

I also agree with Izbl too. :[

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Rob Ray
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Oct 29 2011 20:17
Quote:
I don't care if right wingers are using rape to slag off occupy groups that reflects less badly on them as unlike a lot involved in occupy groups they can see it is a prevalent problem.

Really? You think that's why they're having a go? Seriously like, anyone with even a passing interest in the prevalence of rape in the US and the right's complete lack of interest must be aware that the only reason they give a shit atm is because it allows them to discredit leftists.

Quote:
I don't see why I should have to take things in good faith.

I never said you should always take things in good faith, I said don't automatically assume bad faith and ask if you're unclear. There's a difference - namely that you're less likely to end up inadvertently slinging mud at people who don't deserve it.

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Oct 30 2011 17:34
Rob Ray wrote:
I never said you should always take things in good faith, I said don't automatically assume bad faith and ask if you're unclear. There's a difference - namely that you're less likely to end up inadvertently slinging mud at people who don't deserve it.

Yes and no.. I mean, if you suffer from an oppression then if you think someone is dismissing/mocking you for it then I think it's hard not to get pissed off by it.

So, for example, a working class person is talking to someone much posher than them (I know, it sounds like a 'walk into a bar' joke, but bare with me) and the posher person makes some comment that could be misunderstood as taking the piss out of working class people. The working class person who's grown up with Vicky Pollard stereotypes, posh people mimicking 'yoof' accents, making chav jokes etc might get pissed off (they might not obviously, but we're not talking about that). In that case I think it's fair enough for the posher person to just have to say "sorry, that's not what I meant old chap" or whatever rather than just respond defensively and say the person getting pissed off is being irrational..

The same would be true between a white and black worker, or a disabled and non-disabled worker etc etc etc.. the point is the working class isn't homogenous and we all have different experiences of being working class. Some people might have had a better time of it for some reasons than others. I don't think they should walk on eggshells for it, but I think if you say something that pisses someone off (especially when there's a structural reason for why they might be particularly touchy about it), then it's better to say sorry and explain what you mean rather than throw the blame for misunderstanding on the other person..

Last thing, I also don't think the benefit of the doubt should be given to leftists that you don't know.. if anything we should be more vigilant..

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Oct 30 2011 18:48

An activist at the occupy Newcastle camp believed that the rape was a fiction, dreamt up by the right wing/state to rubbish the movement. I don't know if it was her own personal fantasy or that was a consensus amongst the group. A very bizarre position to hold, to say the least.

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Oct 30 2011 20:13

What did you say to that?

sawa
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Oct 30 2011 20:20

Aye yeah what Ed says makes sense. Though ya can't always give the benefit of the doubt to leftists ya know either, sadly. tongue

Mr. Jolly wrote:
An activist at the occupy Newcastle camp believed that the rape was a fiction, dreamt up by the right wing/state to rubbish the movement. I don't know if it was her own personal fantasy or that was a consensus amongst the group. A very bizarre position to hold, to say the least.

This seems an all too common view or else that the rape is a purposeful attack on the movement, amongst the occupy movement. I think it stems as well as from the obvious misogyny from a feeling that everyone is against them and that the occupy movement is the only important thing going on, as well as the influence of bloody conspiracy theorists.

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Oct 30 2011 21:41
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What did you say to that?

I was lost for words really. She was an older lady, who is deeply commited to her activism. I didn't want to start going for the jugular. I just pointed out that it wasnt the case. I think that people can easily fall into a simple good vs evil mindset, so when something comes along like this that threatens unsettle the dynamic, they jettison all critical thought. They go into conspiratorial mode because it make a complex/uncormfortable situation more fathomable.

In my experience the activist scene seems to have a unhealthy number of creeps masquerading as wholesome right on men. I think people are far too liberal and far to accommodating of this predatory behaviour.

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Oct 30 2011 21:07
Mr. Jolly wrote:
She was an older lady, who is deeply commited to her activism. I didn't want to start going for the jugular. I just pointed out that it wasnt the case.

Good. Although I don't think being older or an activist should mean you're not roundly called out for comments like that.

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Oct 30 2011 21:38

Nether do I think you should have a stock response to all situations. It comes across as lacking in the basic skills of human empathy/interaction.

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Oct 30 2011 21:53

Sawa, this has got a bit derailed anyway so I might as well respond here.

sawa wrote:
Quote:
It is ridiculous attitudes like this that feed people's prejudices against "political correctness", "feminists" and suchlike.

No it is peoples male privilege or internalising their own oppression that makes them hostile to Feminism. admin: no flaming trying to tell women how they should go about doing feminism which is what you are implying.

firstly, this is a no flaming forum.

Secondly your "logic" here makes absolutely no sense. I'm not "trying to tell women how they should go about doing feminism" in any way - is there any evidence that I am doing this? If so please present it. I was responding to an idiotic comment from you which called me a "rape apologist" (a pretty serious accusation I'm sure you'll agree) for referring to "alleged rapes", which is a phrase you said I should never use. But I was talking about rapes alleged by a lying right-wing nutter. So the only one telling anyone how to do anything is you, trying to dictate what language I should use, and doing so in a completely nonsensical way.

Quote:
Feminism is a safe space for women where we should be free to try and express our experiences of oppression. It is no place for men to tell women they should pander to men in how they express themselves, package feminism nice and male privilege friendly.

hilarious, so you are saying that you should be able to call men rape apologists with absolutely no justification, and they shouldn't be able to respond to you?

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Oct 30 2011 22:11

@steven - shouldn't you be trying to prevent the thread going off topic rather than acknowledging it has happened and then taking it further? I appreciate you feel offended but i don't think a thread about very real sexual violence is the place to carry out a personal argument which is basically about semantics. If we need to discuss the language both you and sawa have used perhaps that needs a separate thread?

tastybrain
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Oct 30 2011 22:36

Back to the topic at hand...

Maybe someone could write up some kind of text to distribute to the #Occupy movements outlining the need to challenge rape culture and take other preventative measures. I don't doubt that some on the Right will try to make the phenomenon seem more prevalent than it is, but it has happened and should be addressed.

sawa
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Oct 30 2011 23:50
Steven. wrote:
Sawa, this has got a bit derailed anyway so I might as well respond here.
sawa wrote:
Quote:
It is ridiculous attitudes like this that feed people's prejudices against "political correctness", "feminists" and suchlike.

No it is peoples male privilege or internalising their own oppression that makes them hostile to Feminism. admin: no flaming trying to tell women how they should go about doing feminism which is what you are implying.

firstly, this is a no flaming forum.

Secondly your "logic" here makes absolutely no sense. I'm not "trying to tell women how they should go about doing feminism" in any way - is there any evidence that I am doing this? If so please present it. I was responding to an idiotic comment from you which called me a "rape apologist" (a pretty serious accusation I'm sure you'll agree) for referring to "alleged rapes", which is a phrase you said I should never use. But I was talking about rapes alleged by a lying right-wing nutter. So the only one telling anyone how to do anything is you, trying to dictate what language I should use, and doing so in a completely nonsensical way.

Quote:
Feminism is a safe space for women where we should be free to try and express our experiences of oppression. It is no place for men to tell women they should pander to men in how they express themselves, package feminism nice and male privilege friendly.

hilarious, so you are saying that you should be able to call men rape apologists with absolutely no justification, and they shouldn't be able to respond to you?

Okay, you are telling me, a woman that calling people up on what I think are inappropriate comments is feeding peoples prejudices about feminism(thus doing feminism wrong). I think this is ridiculously inappropriate. I am telling you that it is not your place to tell women that they are going about feminism wrong.
Rape apologism is sadly very prevalent in our culture. neutral I am criticising what you wrote not saying you are a massive rape apologist or whatever. have I not justified what I was saying. The criticism that people are using these incidents of rape to attack the occupy movement is one that infers that it is thus not acceptable to attack the occupy movement on these grounds. Alleged rape is the same language that rape apologists have used in reference to these incidents, that oh maybe this woman is making it up, and your post certainly didn't infer to me that you meant anything other than these allegations of rape in the op plus other alleged sexual assault. I was saying be careful how you phrase things, some other women may find it triggering.
I also don't get how I am flaming, you have been a lot more rude to me, is it only swearing that is all that is inappropriate then?

sawa
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Oct 30 2011 23:55
tastybrain wrote:
Back to the topic at hand...

Maybe someone could write up some kind of text to distribute to the #Occupy movements outlining the need to challenge rape culture and take other preventative measures. I don't doubt that some on the Right will try to make the phenomenon seem more prevalent than it is, but it has happened and should be addressed.

I think some of us in Glasgow are hoping to write some sort of thing on how to make occupations etc safe for women, what a minimum standard is for our participation, so would be useful to hear others ideas, read what others have written.

I'm not sure where this fear of the right bringing up this issue is rooted in, what are the bad consequences of this. I dunno how the right can make this appear worse than it actually is either, it is more than pretty bad certainly in Glasgow. Obv the right don't sincerely give a fuck about women's safety and feminism but so what? :s

Ed's picture
Ed
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Oct 31 2011 09:02
sawa wrote:
I am criticising what you wrote not saying you are a massive rape apologist or whatever. have I not justified what I was saying. The criticism that people are using these incidents of rape to attack the occupy movement is one that infers that it is thus not acceptable to attack the occupy movement on these grounds. Alleged rape is the same language that rape apologists have used in reference to these incidents, that oh maybe this woman is making it up, and your post certainly didn't infer to me that you meant anything other than these allegations of rape in the op plus other alleged sexual assault. I was saying be careful how you phrase things, some other women may find it triggering.

Steven, I think this is fair enough really.. I mean, re-read your post..

Steven. wrote:
I've noticed that right-wingers across the net have started using these, as well as other alleged sexual assaults which I hadn't previously heard of (which may well be untrue) to attack the entire occupy movement.

There's nothing there that explicitly says you think these rapes did happen, or that we can maintain support for the Occupy movement while criticising it for the lack of safety for women there. Considering the statement coming out of the Glasgow occupation (that it seems sawa was at) and the general conspiraloon shit coming out about this ("the state invented it to discredit the movement" or whatever), I can see why sawa took it the way she did.. After all, I know what you meant, but then I've known you for years and sawa hasn't (luckily for her wink )..

Last thing, while I'm here, not sure I agree with you sawa about men not being able to criticise feminism/feminists (though if I did, then me and my mum would have had a lot fewer arguments!).. it seems you'd have to roll that out to all marginalised groups for a start and then there seems to be an inherent contradiction i.e. what happens when Andrea Dworkin meets Louis Farakhan?

But that's maybe another thread? Please more info on how this is developing inside the occupy movement..

silvermoon
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Oct 31 2011 10:35

Glasgow Occupy is seriously problematic for a range of reasons.

If there are people here who are involved in other Occupies and have contacts with Glasgow activists please get in touch them and get filled in on the situation.

Caiman del Barrio
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Oct 31 2011 14:38
lzbl wrote:
@steven - shouldn't you be trying to prevent the thread going off topic rather than acknowledging it has happened and then taking it further? I appreciate you feel offended but i don't think a thread about very real sexual violence is the place to carry out a personal argument which is basically about semantics. If we need to discuss the language both you and sawa have used perhaps that needs a separate thread?

Seconded.

A little bit of mutual sensitivity might be good here?

Please take it off of this otherwise highly worthwhile discussion.

sawa
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Oct 31 2011 15:16
silvermoon wrote:
Glasgow Occupy is seriously problematic for a range of reasons.

If there are people here who are involved in other Occupies and have contacts with Glasgow activists please get in touch them and get filled in on the situation.

THIS ^^
Is anyone here involved in other occupy groups?