out of interest - on what grounds would you not support the action?
Do you offer support on a sector by sector basis?
Prison officers set to launch unlawful strike
the important elements from my perpspective are:
1) It puts the government in the right shitter - which is good & lots of civil servants will be scurrying around in a panic
2) It is good to see strike action take place and workers to realise the collective strength they hold together and that united they hold much power and that they can improve their working conditions. It may inspire others & strengthen the labour movement.
3) Its good to see the anti union laws tested and flouted.
I can see why others don't or won't support them though...
Quote:
out of interest - on what grounds would you not support the action?Do you offer support on a sector by sector basis?
Well, I imagine the reasons for John.'s caution is the role prison officers play in the apparatus of repression although they're not quite the same as the police who will confront workers directly on the pickets and on the street.
There was a discussion here about whether the police could even be counted as "working class", let alone whether other workers could extend solidarity towards them.
I have no doubt at all that the police themselves are utterly divorced from the working class. Prison officers and support staff are more of a grey area, so I certainly share John's caution.
Of course, John. will have his own view.
The main point of interest for me is that it shows how capitalism is being compelled to attack even those that work for their principle organs of defence. There was a particularly violent attack on police support workers in Devon a couple of years ago which triggered a mass walkout. The ICC reported on it here. The union was completely sidelined in this action, one bloke even said on the local news (as the union tried to claim credit) something along the lines of "you didn't do this, we did!". Hardly a surprise considering the union actually agreed to the wage cuts!
Demogorgon303 wrote:
The main point of interest for me is that it shows how capitalism is being compelled to attack even those that work for their principle organs of defence.
More proof of capitalist decadence is it? Pretty convenient, but what about hurricane dean - surely a sign of capital in decline?
It's always a bad idea for a King to treat his guards like crap. Same goes for bourgeois and their protectors, don't you think? If they're doing it, it's because there are compelling reasons. Under Thatcher the police were given quite a cushy number because the government were reinforcing them in order to contain struggles. Today the opposite is the case. One answer might be the lack of struggles recently, although there are signs this is changing and considering the reinforcement the bourgeoisie have given to other parts of the police state it seems unlikely they are blind to this. Which leaves their capacity to actually pay for it.
As for Hurricane Dean, it's difficult to argue any specific weather event is a product of global warming, but in general the trend for extreme weather to increase is clear. While global warming is a product of capitalism as a whole, in both ascendent and decadent periods, the complete inability for capitalism to do anything about it is a far more recent phenomenon. And this is not because they are not aware of the problem! Numerous reports from many governments and other organisations warn about the consequences to come, even outline what needs to be done about it, but still nothing is actually done. Even a couple of decades ago, capital was still capable of taking minimal measures to tackle serious problems (like the phasing out of CFCs) - today, the paralysis is evident for all to see. Other natural disasters, while not caused by capitalism, are exacerbated by its decay. For example, the Asian Tsunami and others.
Both these phenomena point to a reduction to capitalism's "room for manouvre" on all fronts, don't you think?
who is 'against' the strike? - john - 'I don't support this'
Are you supporting it then Jack?
also - so you're not proferring support to the POA strikers because you think they are cunts....do you get to know all the striking posties for example on a personal level - I'm pretty sure some of them are cunts as well, chances are - they won't all be as 'sound as a pound' working class salt of the earth type...
where does this industry specific soldarity end and start? civil servants? nuclear power station workers? munitions workers? workers in intensive farming,? teachers? traffic wardens... ?
and could you just answer the question instead of wriggling - do you support scabs of this strike or not.
Ta.
Asking whether POs are "cunts" are not is hardly the question. I've met perfectly nice coppers in my time who genuinely believe they're doing something positive for society, don't get involved in the usual corruption (beating people up, etc). It doesn't change the fact that even if you could polish their halos and call them saints, they are still part of the state and therefore the class enemy.
Quote:
where does this industry specific soldarity end and start? civil servants? nuclear power station workers? munitions workers? workers in intensive farming,? teachers? traffic wardens... ?
This is far more to the point. I wouldn't have a problem in supporting strikes by any of these sectors, except the civil servants. Even here, there is a vast difference between an admin worker at the benefits office and an analyst in the foreign office. The former I'd support without hesitation, just as I'd support those support staff in the police I mentioned earlier.
The point is that the police (and to a lesser extend POs) are involved in direct repression against the working class (just as MI5, etc. monitor its activities). How can the class extend solidarity to these sectors when they will be pitted against them in struggles?
chegrimandi wrote:
who is 'against' the strike? - john - 'I don't support this'Are you supporting it then Jack?
He isn't supporting it. That's not the same as being against it. I'm largely ambivalent on it - mostly I'm interested in how the government responds to them breaking the anti-union laws.
Quote:
also - so you're not proferring support to the POA strikers because you think they are cunts....do you get to know all the striking posties for example on a personal level - I'm pretty sure some of them are cunts as well, chances are - they won't all be as 'sound as a pound' working class salt of the earth type...
Nowt to do with whether someone is a nice bloke, everything to do with what their social role is. They directly on a day to day basis repress the working class.
Quote:
where does this industry specific soldarity end and start? civil servants? nuclear power station workers? munitions workers? workers in intensive farming,? teachers? traffic wardens... ?
Why would I be opposed to solidarity with any of those you listed? Just because I'm not going to go out and do practical solidarity for coppers, spies or prison officers (and probably not bailifs) doesn't I'mgoing to go out and oppose it. That'd be mental.
Quote:
and could you just answer the question instead of wriggling - do you support scabs of this strike or not.
There's no wriggling involved, given that I already answered your question. I don't 'support' the strike, but I'm not opposed to it either. So why would I support scabs?
Yeah, on many levels this is a very good thing - large numbers of workers are taking on and now breaking anti-union laws. And they're taking action against this cross sector shit pay offer. If they win there will be knock-on effects for lots of other workers. i.e. similar pay increases will be expected across the public sector. Also it inspire others to break the anti-union laws.
On another level, while prison officers aren't the same as cops, they often has quite a negative role in the way opposed to many other workers. So I don't think it's worth doing any practical work to support them. I'm watching this with interest.
cheg, as to where does support stop, the only groups I can think I wouldn't generally support demands made by are those directly involved in the violent arm of the state - so police officers (not civilian staff), prison warders, soldiers (soldiers excepted in more circumstances such as mutinies).
I think it's also interesting that the POA are doing this for another reason. They're one of the few unions in this country who aren't tied to Labour one way or another, like even non-affiliated ones like the NUT are. The POA don't care about whether their action affects Labour's election chances - they're out for their own interests - in this case higher pay, though they also have grievances about conditions and attacks on them by inmates. It shows how shit the rest of the unions are that it takes a union whose members are likely to be fairly right wing to take on the anti-union laws.
Regards,
Martin
Quote:
whether or not we 'support' (and fuck only knows what that means) the PO's is whether here or there, what's important is the fact they've shown how to fucking fight and a victory for them would represent a serious dint in the governments armour If they can win this after being declared illegal and being sent letters threatening imprisonment, it surely stands as an example to other public service workers on how to actually win.Do I think anarchists and socialists can organise alongside PO's and cops? Nope, their day to day role makes that next to impossible, do i think a victory by them over the government would be a good thing for the working class in terms of industrial militancy? yes I do.
On the otherhand the cops refused to protect scabs and went on strike themselves in the 1907 Belfast dockers strike. In such circumstances their strike should be supported.
I posted that on MATB.
Anyway whether we call it support or not, we should all be following this strike closely and certainly it should be getting coverage on libcom. If they win on this it really fucks the governments public sector pay freeze/drop up the shiter.
Also
Quote:
It shows how shit the rest of the unions are that it takes a union whose members are likely to be fairly right wing to take on the anti-union laws.
But doesn't this show that class struggle isn't a matter of 'ideas', that the reality of it always disrupts the ideological realm.
Revol,
Don't disagree about the reality vs ideas, more the point that other groups of workers face the same issues and could take action. However, compare the POA's response to this injunction, which has been reluctant and mindful of the rank and file, with the T&G at Gate Gourmet (the last time I can remember a high profile unlawful action).
The govt are going to be having "talks" with the POA on Friday. I agree that if they get any concessions this could spread. THe shock of it - workers using tactics that might work !
Regards,
Martin
Well, I would "support" this strike if there were immediate and tangable benefits for real live working class human beings (as there may well be as mentionined the effects on a sector wide scale), Much the same as I would support the ritualistic burning of puppies, if for some reason it would have an overall benifit to society.
As for supporting these bitches out of some deference to the idea of striking in general, I must be forgiven for wishing that this strike be broken by the spontaneuos infection of leprosy of all said individuals.
As for the police vs. cops analysis I would argue that, personality wise, the prison guards are waaaaaaaaay worse than cops, in that the police at least have to make occasional attempts to pass themselves off as serving a credible interest to society, whereas the guards are hidden from sight and are free to live out thier wildest sadomaschist fantasies without a hint of oversight.
Btw, does anyone have anyone have any general knowledge as to who (police vs guards) have been more willing to side with us in past struggles?
Quote:
As for the police vs. cops analysis I would argue that, personality wise, the prison guards are waaaaaaaaay worse than cops, in that the police at least have to make occasional attempts to pass themselves off as serving a credible interest to society, whereas the guards are hidden from sight and are free to live out thier wildest sadomaschist fantasies without a hint of oversight.
Don't know about that now, in the Troubles only a few screws got smoked up, a hell of a alot less than cops, the paramilitary prisoners despised the police much more than the PO's, of course the fact that there was a very peculiar power relationship in Northern Irish prisoners during the troubles (the wings were essentially self managed by the paramilitary hieracrchies) would have made quite a difference, brutality between screws and prisoners from either side would have been seen as detrimental on both sides, causing more problems for both than it was worth.
GrimePays wrote:
Well, I would "support" this strike if there were immediate and tangable benefits for real live working class human beings (as there may well be as mentionined the effects on a sector wide scale), Much the same as I would support the ritualistic burning of puppies, if for some reason it would have an overall benifit to society.
Would putting the government on the back foot during a crucial round of public sector pay claims be of tangible benefit to real live working class human beings?
Yeah I think there's a difference between thinking it's a good thing and 'support'. Looks like some people took advantage of it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6969018.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6968835.stm
Quote:
Anyway whether we call it support or not, we should all be following this strike closely and certainly it should be getting coverage on libcom. If they win on this it really fucks the governments public sector pay freeze/drop up the shiter.
yep.
"Would putting the government on the back foot during a crucial round of public sector pay claims be of tangible benefit to real live working class human beings?"
Yes of course. Nonetheless thier still a bunch of jerks and I cringe to here them labled as "workers" and hate to see people present them as anything other than scum just because they have the good sense to occasionaly use our tactics and strategies (strikes, unions).
GrimePays wrote:
"Would putting the government on the back foot during a crucial round of public sector pay claims be of tangible benefit to real live working class human beings?"Yes of course. Nonetheless thier still a bunch of jerks and I cringe to here them labled as "workers" and hate to see people present them as anything other than scum just because they have the good sense to occasionaly use our tactics and strategies (strikes, unions).
christ almighty, it's like a caricature of a shit class war article.
If your criticism of the police and prison service rests on them being 'nothing more than scum' you're in big trouble, afterall what are you going to do when you meet decent cops or screws, flip the cognitive disonance switch or change your political position. It has very little to do with cops or PO's being 'scum' or someother hysterical punk rock hyperbole, personally I've had dealings with cops who are lovely, others that are complete cunts and others i'm ambivalent about. I'm capable of understanding the role of the police in society without having to caricature them into monsters.
Quote:
John wrote: "I wouldn't generally support demands made by are those directly involved in the violent arm of the state - so police officers (not civilian staff), prison warders, soldiers (soldiers excepted in more circumstances such as mutinies)."
I'm interested in this as I know there is something of an effort to set up a union in the british army to defend commonwealth solidiers from racism (specifically them as far as I remember, not black britons).....not really sure of it...surely an army where you have soldiers doing something like that is then more likely to refuse combat in other instances. I'm also mindful that police and prisoners officers associations have tended to demand things like bigger and better weapons for themselves, so you might have rank and file solidiers emboldened by resisting racism from officers and other soldiers, or by resisting their day to day conditions in other ways, pushing for more of a carte blanche in 'counter-insurgency', ie they get to whack anyone that looks dangerous.
Interesting reaction reported from some inmates in the guardian.
Quote:
General secretary Brian Caton said that all the striking prison officers returned to work last night after the union's executive decided to call off the action.
Prisoners in Leeds stood and applauded the staff, while in Chelmsford, Essex, inmates shook the hands of returning officers, said Mr Caton.
Quote:
it's like a caricature of a shit class war article.
Meh, I've heard worse insults.
Quote:
If your criticism of the police and prison service rests on them being 'nothing more than scum' you're in big trouble, afterall what are you going to do when you meet decent cops or screws, flip the cognitive disonance switch or change your political position.
I don't think you could have gotten me any more twisted if you tried. I've actually been working with a cop the last few days (as in a co-worker who is also a cop, not as in "collaborating"!) and we get along swimmingly. I find him to be a plesant enough person who's unique insight and experiance I enjoy having access to. We spent about an hour yesterday discussing the war and and his experiance serving in the Gulf war, and we were easily in agreement with the total bullshitness of the current catastrophy in Iraq, amongst other things. So no, I'm not incapable of seeing the person behind the badge, and indeed I realize the importantance of understanding what makes these people tick.
That being said, what this guy goes at night and does is complete bullshit, and I hardly think it's of any consolation to some black dude whose head he may decide to crack open, that in another context he may be a decent enough person. Im no absolutionist, and I'd say to (almost) any cop, rightwinger, fed, spy, etc. etc. that as soon as you get your politics right, I'll take you in with open arms. Hell I'll even buy the first few rounds!
Quote:
It has very little to do with cops or PO's being 'scum' or someother hysterical punk rock hyperbole
PFFFFT! Punks hardly have a monopoly on cop hating.
And let the record also show that I am not currently, nor have I even been at any time in the past, a fan of punk. not even slightly.
Quote:
"I'm capable of understanding the role of the police in society without having to caricature them into monsters."
Yes agreed. But the fact remains that most of them are indeed bitches. Thats the type of personality that gravitates toward such jobs, thats thier training, and thats what thier peers tend to encourage.
I agree with the approach taken up by John and Demogorgon, also with revol's careful distinction between the individual and the function. We can't support prison officers as a category any more than we can support the police. At the same time, it's evident that this action does reflect a much wider discontent, just as the police can in certain situations be affected by major class movements. In a mass strike or revolutionary situation, this is an element which can serve to decompose the repressive apparatus.
We are obviously not in such a situation; but the government has certainly seized on the prison officers' action to issue a more general warning to the entire public sector.
What's interesting to me is that they've gone on an illegal strike, without years of other confidence-building action. Local government workers strike semi-regularly, every few years at least, and something like this is unimaginable - but this lot have done this having never gone on strike in nearly 70 years. How did it happen? I suppose the job you get quite a macho attitude and you're used to fighting and confrontation, but then also to being obedient. I suppose this has been brewing for a long time, but I'd like to know more about what lead to this.
Anyone know any warders we could interview? PMs are acceptable if someone wants to send us one
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/26/nstrike126.xml
They've been offered sub-inflation 1.9% deal. Previously they have done mass sick-outs I believe.
I don't support this, but I think it's interesting - and any improved pay offer they get will have a knock-on effect for other groups of workers.