Protests in Ukraine

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ajjohnstone
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May 7 2014 20:24

I make no reference or defence of Yelstin but no way should anybody try to diminish Putin's contribution and role to the suppression of Chechnya.

Might as well say Obama's and Cameron's complicity in war are merely secondary and clean up as they did not instigate either Afghan, Iraq or the so-called War on Terror. I stand by my statement that Putin's position is hypocritical and his history blood-stained.

I was perhaps a bit rash to employ the words fascist. After all there is a more or agreed definition to the term...extremist nationalist may be a better choice and THEY do occupy the Kremlin and the positions of government power in Russia.

Kiev or Moscow - A plague on both

This mounting civil war in the Ukraine has its roots within capitalism like every other conflict in recent times. Should slaves take sides in the disputes of their masters? This conflict/war is not unique. Yugoslavia? We don't need to defend Serbian nationalism and their breakaway republic of Srpska or recall the Nazi Croatian Chekniks to condemn the bombardment of Sarajevo or the bombing of Belgrade and see what the war was about...economic/military expansion.

As i said we seen too much of the same and until the world changes we will see more of the same. Stop picking sides to support.

S2W
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May 7 2014 22:13

I put my text up separately:

http://libcom.org/news/anarchism-context-civil-war-08052014

S2W
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May 7 2014 22:15

BTW after I had my text translated, it was revealed that in Donetsk RKAS is involved in Anti-Maidan:

http://avtonom.org/news/anarhist-iz-donecka-zayavlyat-o-sebe-v-antimaydanovskom-dvizhenii-kak-politicheskaya-sila-my-ne

Oh dear.

teh
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May 8 2014 00:30
ajjohnstone wrote:
I make no reference or defence of Yelstin but no way should anybody try to diminish Putin's contribution and role to the suppression of Chechnya.

Might as well say Obama's and Cameron's complicity in war are merely secondary and clean up as they did not instigate either Afghan, Iraq or the so-called War on Terror. I stand by my statement that Putin's position is hypocritical and his history blood-stained.

Well I wouldn't put the destruction of Iraq as the "response" of Obama to opposition to imperial rule- that I'd say was Clinton & his machine and Bush father and son- though Obama certainly did and is doing his best to subjugate Iraq. Putin's position is hypocritical and his history blood-stained but I believe there is a concerted effort to whitewash Yeltsin's legacy, including on Chechnya.

Quote:
I was perhaps a bit rash to employ the words fascist. After all there is a more or agreed definition to the term...extremist nationalist may be a better choice and THEY do occupy the Kremlin and the positions of government power in Russia.

Name me the persons or groups. I think Svoboda and its offshoots fit the classic Neo-Nazi platform.

Quote:
This mounting civil war in the Ukraine has its roots within capitalism like every other conflict in recent times. Should slaves take sides in the disputes of their masters? This conflict/war is not unique. Yugoslavia? We don't need to defend Serbian nationalism and their breakaway republic of Srpska or recall the Nazi Croatian Chekniks to condemn the bombardment of Sarajevo or the bombing of Belgrade and see what the war was about...economic/military expansion.

As i said we seen too much of the same and until the world changes we will see more of the same. Stop picking sides to support.

No no I completely agree.

teh
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May 8 2014 01:17
S2W wrote:
BTW after I had my text translated, it was revealed that in Donetsk RKAS is involved in Anti-Maidan:

http://avtonom.org/news/anarhist-iz-donecka-zayavlyat-o-sebe-v-antimaydanovskom-dvizhenii-kak-politicheskaya-sila-my-ne

Oh dear.

I don't think I've ever read anything on Avtonom which didn't have an activistoid solution to a given problem.

RKAS's website seems to have been hijacked by the Mens Internet Magazine http://rkas.org.ua/
which talks about what is the attractiveness of the EU.

ajjohnstone
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May 8 2014 02:28

I read this article by well-published James Petras due to its title "The Kiev Putsch: Rebel Workers Take Power in the East". I was hoping against hope.

What do i find? The vast part of the essay is devoted to the NATO/EU expansionism, much of which i cannot disagree with. What was missing in the article was any substantial description of those rebel workers or their organisations.

Quote:
"The industrial workers of Ukraine who succeed in throwing off the yoke of the western vassals in Kiev have no intention of submitting themselves to the yoke of the Russian oligarchs. Their struggle is for a democratic state, capable of developing an independent economic policy, free of imperial military alliances."

That was all to justify the title.

But details of new organisations with these demands or evidence for such a belief from trade unions seem to be lacking. True, the media and lack of translations could be the reason. Yet the same article reaffirms their chains to Russia and not any such economic independence. Do we read about worker occupations, the rise of the council movement...

Quote:
"The loss of Russian trade is already leading to mass unemployment, especially among skilled industrial workers in the East who may be forced to immigrate to Russia."

There is no demand in his article for the demilitarisation of the Black Sea reports to substantiate "free of imperial military alliances." The status quo is accepted.

Throughout Russian history, statists have tended to hold a view of nationalism as an instrument to strengthen state institutions and bolster the authority of the ruling class. As such, statists have traditionally favoured territorial expansion, followed by efforts to assimilate minority groups. Putin may not endorse "Russia for the Russians" slogans of the extreme nationalists but his patriotism means Moscow rules.

oops forgot the Petras link
http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/05/the-kiev-putsch-rebel-workers-take-power-in-the-east/

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Esty
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May 8 2014 02:55

moderator, please remove post 188. I admit it was an underhanded attempt to score political points and I apologize. Also delete this post, please

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ocelot
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May 8 2014 09:48

@Esty - you can edit your own posts retrospectively. If, on reflection, you want to retract one of your posts, the generally accepted etiquette is to edit it and delete the original text, replacing it with a note to the effect that you have decided to remove it (and, optionally, one or two words why).

baboon
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May 8 2014 11:22

Esty, I was mystified by the post you want disappeared and your attack mentioning myself. In the interests of clarity, while not taking up too much time in an important discussion, could you elaborate on why you want this post retracted?

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Shorty
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May 8 2014 11:31

I've been seeing this spread on social media, I haven't had a chance to read it and I'm not sure what the exact political position of the website is but ...

http://www.dreamdeferred.org.uk/2014/05/ukraine-slides-towards-civil-war-there-is-no-good-side-to-choose/

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subprole
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May 8 2014 11:35

Repost from here

AWU addressed the Confederal Group of the European United Left/Nordic Green Left faction in the European Parliament with this open letter in which they are basically begging for political support from inside the European Parliament: http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/18/open-letter-european-left/

What else?
http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/30/the-politicians-obey-crowd-interview-protests-kiev/

Quote:
I guess in such conditions the best form of support from abroad would be efforts to make the Ukrainian government back off, but without showing solidarity with the far-right. My guess is that such messages – “we support your struggle but not your fascists” – would be optimal form of pressure from abroad.

Not just here they are demonstrating their collaborative position towards the (liberal) elements of the - in its general tendency - populist and nationalist Euromaidan movement. This passage shows they were hoping for a new government constructing a (supposedly) more "democratic" mechanism managing Ukrainian oligarchic capitalism. Explain: why should proletarians in Ukraine or elsewhere force a government to resign in exchange for some parasitic scum like Yatsenyuk or Tymoshenko?

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subprole
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May 8 2014 12:06

Further proof of the "pacifist position of the Ukrainian government that does not want war" (AWU)

Quote:
Ukraine deploys 15,000-strong military force near Russia’s borders

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/730878

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ocelot
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May 8 2014 13:59
subprole wrote:
Repost from here

AWU addressed the Confederal Group of the European United Left/Nordic Green Left faction in the European Parliament with this open letter in which they are basically begging for political support from inside the European Parliament: http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/18/open-letter-european-left/

What else?
http://avtonomia.net/2014/01/30/the-politicians-obey-crowd-interview-protests-kiev/

Quote:
I guess in such conditions the best form of support from abroad would be efforts to make the Ukrainian government back off, but without showing solidarity with the far-right. My guess is that such messages – “we support your struggle but not your fascists” – would be optimal form of pressure from abroad.

Not just here they are demonstrating their collaborative position towards the (liberal) elements of the - in its general tendency - populist and nationalist Euromaidan movement. This passage shows they were hoping for a new government constructing a (supposedly) more "democratic" mechanism managing Ukrainian oligarchic capitalism. Explain: why should proletarians in Ukraine or elsewhere force a government to resign in exchange for some parasitic scum like Yatsenyuk or Tymoshenko?

Any reading of the two articles you link will reveal that they totally do not say what you allege they say.

Irrespective of your motives, you are being completely dishonest here, and people should take heed of that.

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subprole
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May 8 2014 14:27

The passages I quote imply what I say. There are definitely serious contradictions in their pamphlets and you should take heed of that. Besides there is absolutely no argument in your comment, it is just your irrelevant opinion.

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ocelot
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May 8 2014 14:55

I don't waste my time arguing with people who are being transparently dishonest. I trust the readers of this site well enough to read the articles you link and judge for themselves.

An instrumental approach to the truth is fundamentally incompatible with basic anarchist principles.

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subprole
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May 8 2014 15:02

This "debate" is getting surreal! But I also have absolutely no interest in any further communication with you.

Spikymike
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May 8 2014 15:18

Shorty,
You should really read texts you link beforehand but as it happens the specific 'dreamdeferred' article you refer to is pretty good and well worth people here reading.

S2W
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May 8 2014 17:26
teh wrote:
I don't think I've ever read anything on Avtonom which didn't have an activistoid solution to a given problem.

Definitely, as in our times any kind of intervention is deemed "activistoid", and even groups like KRAS have adopted neo-council communist approach of revolutionary refusal from any kind of activity besides internet proclamations.

teh
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May 8 2014 17:51
S2W wrote:
teh wrote:
I don't think I've ever read anything on Avtonom which didn't have an activistoid solution to a given problem.

Definitely, as in our times any kind of intervention is deemed "activistoid", and even groups like KRAS have adopted neo-council communist approach of revolutionary refusal from any kind of activity besides internet proclamations.

I don't see how class collaboration and appeals to democracy can lead to anything other than the worst forms of oligarchy. The power of workers is at their jobs (and when they cooperate across workplaces), not on the street.

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Steven.
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May 8 2014 19:05
S2W wrote:
BTW after I had my text translated, it was revealed that in Donetsk RKAS is involved in Anti-Maidan:

http://avtonom.org/news/anarhist-iz-donecka-zayavlyat-o-sebe-v-antimaydanovskom-dvizhenii-kak-politicheskaya-sila-my-ne

Oh dear.

could someone post a translation of that to libcom, if it's worthwhile?

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Steven.
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May 8 2014 19:16
subprole wrote:
The passages I quote imply what I say. There are definitely serious contradictions in their pamphlets and you should take heed of that. Besides there is absolutely no argument in your comment, it is just your irrelevant opinion.

as ocelot points out, those passages do not imply anything like what you say. So either you are outright lying, or you have simply been unable to comprehend the text you have read. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I will assume the latter for now…

On an admin note, you shouldn't have posted the same thing into separate discussions. I will respond to your comment where you posted it initially shortly. Please don't continue discussion of this point on here as well.

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Steven.
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May 8 2014 19:19
Spikymike wrote:
Shorty,
You should really read texts you link beforehand but as it happens the specific 'dreamdeferred' article you refer to is pretty good and well worth people here reading.

that article is pretty good. Unfortunately the website it is on is run by the author, Tash, and Martin Smith, the SWP rapist.

baboon
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May 8 2014 19:33

I don't know about the particular quotes from subprole but think that there's more than enough evidence above - if it was needed after their initial statements - that the AWU is a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists supporting one side in an imperialist flare-up.

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subprole
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May 8 2014 20:16
Quote:
I will respond to your comment where you posted it initially shortly. Please don't continue discussion of this point on here as well.

I have no intention of discussing with you either, so don't worry.

baboon
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May 10 2014 11:55

There was the "victory" parade in Russia of course as the military celebrated some sort of re-found Russian assertion and we had the Crimean strut from Putin. But genrally, from reports that I've seen anyway, there doesn't seem much appetite for war among the general Russian population and if anything, there were some anti-war demonstrations a few weeks ago which were small and quickly broken up by the police. At the moment there seems little appetite among ordinary Russians for an invasion of Eastern Ukraine.

But as Newsnight pointed out last night that situation could change very quickly if attacks continue on civilisans in Russian-speaking areas. In this case great pressure could mount for Russian "intervention".

There's no doubt that under US direction Kiev has mounted a military offensive even if its been somewhat shambolic on occasions. Ukrainian fighter-bombers have been screamiing low over the south-east for weeks now reminiscent of Israeli terror tactics. Civilian have been killed in the south-east and previously peaceful areas have erupted due to the "anti-terrorist" action - an action that can only produce its own atrocities.

For months these expressions of imperialist pushes and manoeuvres on both sides are now threatening to get out of control and take on a further imperialist dynamic involving a more intense military confrontation that obviously involves wider and more dangerous consequences.

It is absolutely essential that from a working class point of view that all the imperialist factions involved in this further descent into militarism and war are clearly denounced - without any ambiguity - especially the two major imperialisms.

S2W
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May 10 2014 18:28
teh wrote:
I don't see how class collaboration and appeals to democracy can lead to anything other than the worst forms of oligarchy. The power of workers is at their jobs (and when they cooperate across workplaces), not on the street.

I do not remember a single revolution which would have succeeded without taking over the streets, ever.

Passivistoid neo-council communism makes sense only as long as you ignore any empiria alltogether.

S2W
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May 10 2014 18:51
S2W wrote:
BTW after I had my text translated, it was revealed that in Donetsk RKAS is involved in Anti-Maidan:

http://avtonom.org/news/anarhist-iz-donecka-zayavlyat-o-sebe-v-antimaydanovskom-dvizhenii-kak-politicheskaya-sila-my-ne

Oh dear.

Have to take this back, apparenlty it is just certain members of RKAS but no basis to say that it is position of the organisation or its local group as a whole.

teh
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May 10 2014 19:19
S2W wrote:
teh wrote:
I don't see how class collaboration and appeals to democracy can lead to anything other than the worst forms of oligarchy. The power of workers is at their jobs (and when they cooperate across workplaces), not on the street.

I do not remember a single revolution which would have succeeded without taking over the streets, ever.

Passivistoid neo-council communism makes sense only as long as you ignore any empiria alltogether.

There has been no single successful socialist revolution in history. There is your mistake, you're fighting for a bourgeois revolution in the 21st century when this class is incapable of any positive reorganization of society (usually even in the short term, much less the medium and long term). Building workers soviets is not a passive affair. It requires networking and delegating across industry and education in the knowledge hoarded by management all with the purpose to expropriate the economy. I don't know how many times people have to storm the Bastille until they realize its a waste of time.

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Gepetto
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May 10 2014 20:02

As for AWU, I wouldn't call them Ukrainian nationalists but there's something about them that just doesn't feel right. For them the main enemy seems to be Russian imperialism, they don't talk much about USA, EU or their new government in all of their texts translated into English. In their statement on the annexation of Crimea they urged "proletarians of all lands" to stand against "criminal regime of Putin". But why only him? What's next, another "Proletarian Military Policy" if shit gets real?

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subprole
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May 10 2014 21:06
Quote:
As for AWU, I wouldn't call them Ukrainian nationalists but there's something about them that just doesn't feel right.

Probably you are right. They do not have to be denounced as Ukranian nationalists or crypto nationalists if one is just confronted with some left liberal cretins decorating their publications with some class struggle rhetoric.

Quote:
To the members of GUE/NGL faction in the European Parliament,
Gabriele Zimmer

Dear comrades.,

We, the members of leftist, trade union and human rights organizations in Ukraine, [...] Autonomous Workers Union – Kyiv,

18/01/2014

And:

Quote:
But why only him?

Because the Kiev regime is not criminal. It is a democratic regime and not a brutal dictatorship like in Russia....