So anarchists view the military the same way as they view the police?

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carbon_black
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Apr 19 2009 15:22

Reading some of the posts, it seems to be there is not an agreeable or definite answer when it comes to the way the military is viewed which is understandable considering where in the social ladder those in the military are, what nation they come from and other such aspects.

no1
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Apr 20 2009 10:02

I think it's necessary for a postrevolutionary society to dismantle the repressive apparatus of police and prison because it's the essential part of the state. I believe if you leave them in place, then society will revert sooner or later to a form of class domination similar to what we have now.
Since prisons etc. are a relatively recent invention, and since many societies exist without that repressive apparatus, it's clear that they are not necessary for a stable society.
Of course no humane society could tolerate rape etc. But what about less serious violations, e.g. relating to personal property? For example, imagine you own car that is desirable because, although postrevolutionary provides cars to anyone who needs them, this particular type of car is no longer produced, so someone takes it off you. Should they be thrown in prison or otherwise punished too? What about drugs? Some think drugs (including alcohol) are inherently socially destructive, others want far more liberal ways than we have now. Or intimate relationships - should bigamy be punishable as it is now, or should polyamory be the norm (even if the consequence is that children grow up without parents)?
I imagine a postrevolutionary world will be very diverse, with different communities taking different decisions on what behaviour is permissible and what isn't. I believe that instead of punishing those who break these rules with prison etc., there should be two options: rehabilitation and expulsion. Those who break the socially agreed rules but still recognise their validity should be able to re-integrate into the community via some process. Those who break the rules because they disregard them should be expelled from that particular community because they undermine the foundation of that community's social life - probably they'll find a different community that suits them better. Those who are mentally ill fall into a different category of course, and they should receive treatment.

baboon
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Joined: 29-07-05
Apr 20 2009 18:34

To return to the proposal raised above about Police Councils up to and including a revolution. The general consensus on here seems to be that the police are a particular factor of bourgeois society and the state. But the question of Police Councils is important because it really raises the question of what are the Workers’ Councils?

If Police Councils existed, as advocated above, would they still have links to their networks in the state, would they have access to information, would they have access to arms, materiale and other equipment? I suggest that would be their tendency. The tendency from Police Councils would be the tendency for the reinforcement of police networks, a tendency for them to strengthen themselves and become a force autonomous from the class struggle (that they never belonged to, but opposed), and, since the police have been integral to the state since the dawn of civilisation, they could only be a recipe towards the strengthening of the state and the counter-revolution. The working class on the other hand, through the domination of its councils, has the task among other things, of strengthening its own autonomous organisation and decreasing that of the state. The real question is the strength and sovereignty of the workers’ councils and Police Councils would directly militate against this and pose a serious threat. It’s ridiculous for revolutionaries to advocate Police Councils.

Among the questions posed earlier in relation to a revolution is the question of continuing criminality and irrational, dangerous individuals continue to exist and demand some sanction. I tend to agree with much of No. 1’s last post on this. But firstly, it needs to be said that it is capitalism that generates irrationality, general psychological breakdown and criminality like no other system before. I’d suggest that in periods of intense class struggle general criminality would tend to reduce but to deal with any remnants would need a great degree of workers self-organisation. The main question being the building of a new society and the development of class consciousness.

The main threat to come against the revolution, particularly in its earlier stages, would be the forces of the counter-revolution (that could include the police). This would necessitate some form of active organisation under the control of the workers’ councils and its political direction. In, or just after, a civil war there’s an obvious need for espionage and sabotage for example that would have to be undertaken by a delegated minority. The impulse for determining the nature of this sort of work would always be the strengthening and political depth of the workers’ councils.

baboon
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Apr 26 2009 17:46

Another strange case of the police being involved with the workers is the Zubatov affair around 1900 in Russia. There were elements among the higher echelons of the police that could clearly see that not only was repression ineffective, it was also counter-productive. Deputy Head of Russia's police. Prince Sviatopolk-Mirskii expressed this clearly From this, the police, being the most intelligent faction of the Tsarist state, set up bodies and encouraged the setting up of bodies to promote and fight for workers' economic demands.

Police chief Zubatov, in Moscow then Petrograd, encouraged workers to set up elected organs - subject to police approval - in order to pursue economic aims. Some police officers organised strikes and there were thousands of workers on committees. It was an attempt by the most conscious elements of the bourgeoisie to divert workers away from political action and from its failure it was wound up after several years.

The police in Britain were unionised, with many senior officers involved and active in strikes from the late 1800s and the 1918 strike was a watershed. The state used it to cement the police into its structure and henceforth the police became entirely separate from the working class.

I think that the point that the Russian police learnt around a hundred years ago is that repression alone is ineffective at best. More dangerous than the police is the bourgeoisie's campaigns around reforms, justice and democracy.