Egypt: What exactly are you supporting?

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Jason Cortez
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Feb 3 2011 10:00

eating poulitices Frankly the OP is spam. the reposting of stuff, just because you like to see your text everywhere on the net. In future if you must ask everybody to 'look at me' a simple one line intro along the lines, I have written this about... what do you folks think? and a link will be more than sufficent.

Jason Cortez
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Feb 3 2011 10:05

MT and Hieronymous, leave it out. Just ignore each other. Or take it to LibCommunity.

Jason Cortez
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Feb 3 2011 11:03

thanks Hieronymous

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Iskra
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Feb 3 2011 11:26
Red Marriott wrote:
MT & Kontrrazvedka - we understand your viewpoint, but if you don't have anything else to say, stop repeating yourselves by trolling the same old bullshit on various threads.

Hm, then everyone should stop to "trolling the same old bullshit" which means that we should stop reading your hippie "riot porn" reviews and hopes smile

One of you said that we didn't gave any relevant examples? Well I gave a lot and if you want you can use Google tranlator for Croatian to read this: http://masa-hr.org/content/%C5%A1-mo%C5%BEemo-o%C4%8Dekivati-od-revolucija%E2%80%9C-u-arapskim-zemljama

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 14:04
Jason Cortez wrote:
eating poulitices Frankly the OP is spam. the reposting of stuff, just because you like to see your text everywhere on the net. In future if you must ask everybody to 'look at me' a simple one line intro along the lines, I have written this about... what do you folks think? and a link will be more than sufficent.

I don't think the OP is spam. A link to the website with no other explanation would have been spam.

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Arbeiten
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Feb 3 2011 14:07

Don't support change, something unpredictable might happen....

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Iskra
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Feb 3 2011 14:12
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I don't think the OP is spam. A link to the website with no other explanation would have been spam.

I agree. Just because some people use their heads and don't follow mass hysteria about every uprisinig and "window smashing" that doesn’t mean that they spam. If you have some arguments you shouldn't be afraid to discuss them with people who have opposite views.

Here's interesting article on Tunis and Egypt by Russian KRAS: http://aitrus.info/node/1304 (use Google translate).

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 14:20
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
uprisinig and "window smashing"

This is a very condescending way of describing what's happening in Egypt atm.
Whatever the initial goal of the protests, self-organized working people have been fighting off state police and the bosses' pinkertons for two days now. If that means nothing to you, I think your definition of "class struggle" is indeed very esoteric.

MT
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Feb 3 2011 14:24

i think, K. meant not only this, he only wanted to make a point. anyway, is the class perspective to you rich poor fighting the rich? cos it sounds so. saying the people is a class or using nice words like pinkertons and bosses changes nothing on the fact that it is poor against the elite and its supporters.

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Iskra
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Feb 3 2011 14:32

@mateofthebloke

This part you quoted is not directed towards Egypt, but towards anarchists and other leftists who tend to support every movement or action of masses which are based on "window smashing" just because there's some kind of riot or uprising and they don’t think that it’s important to take care of politics on which this movement is based upon. I think that we need to pay little more attention and analyse stuff which are happening. Of course, insurrectionist types will just say “fuck you and your books” (even nobody’s talking here about “book experiences”, but what we experienced in our lives or what did our parents experienced), but this type of ignorant politics will keep anarchist movement on margins of society forever.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 14:34
MT wrote:
i think, K. meant not only this, he only wanted to make a point. anyway, is the class perspective to you rich poor fighting the rich? cos it sounds so. saying the people is a class or using nice words like pinkertons and bosses changes nothing on the fact that it is poor against the elite and its supporters.

I didn't say anything about "the people". Most of those involved in the battle for Tahrir square are by nearly all accounts, young, working people.
Pinkertons wasn't meant as a rhetorical flourish. Several journalists (such as Anderson Cooper of CNN) have reported that some on "pro-Mubarak" side were paid and bused in to attack anti-government protesters, while other have been unmasked as coppers.
Who are "the poor" and "the rich" anyway? Is this the class analysis that you would have instead of "mass hysteria"?

MT
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Feb 3 2011 15:07

the point is that ANYONE can use communist tactics and they will not be communist tactics. and also - proletariat is no GOD. I feel like many people here have some proletarian "religion" and anything working men (and even better if women as well...) do is so so class related. well, to me it is not and i see no communist tendencies in such things without wider context. basically people here with emotional ties to egypt or any revolt have difficulty to answer what are the libertarian elements to the uprising. we have read about committees doing things people naturally do when outside services are not provided to them by usual means, including safety and defence of private property. what is so revolutionary or libertarian about that? where is the revolutionary goal in it? the new egypt/tunisia/whatever? egypt without mubarak or whoever? egypt with new ruling elite? or something else? the poor are not god, the proletariat is not god. we need to see not only methods but also goals. or we end up like some lifestylist anarchists admiring freedom and selfemancipation and other principles which are empty without wider context connected with goals the methods are used for.

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Feb 3 2011 16:41

Meh, I dunno, I've got to agree with Samotnaf and people on this.. the situation in Egypt is far more interesting than you give it credit for. I mean, can you give me any example of any uprising in history that didn't either start off with dodgy politics or never would have led to libertarian communism? I can only think of Russia 1917..

As for this, well, I think the formation of that new independent union federation and the talk of a general strike are signs that workers are thinking of their interests as workers (critique of unions aside).. equally, I think the massive strikes of 2007-8 add a very working class element to this.

But it does make me think: what are your opinions on what happened in Argentina in 2001? Obviously not exactly the same (what is?) but it also could never have achieved libertarian communism. It was also only against some facets of capitalism (i.e. free trade's effects on the global south) and in many cases led to the creation of petit-bourgeois workers' co-ops. But was it also not massively inspirational?

You're right, this Egypt stuff won't lead to libertarian communism. There are also nationalist and liberal ideas flying around the movement. But the memory of the struggle won't just die off once there's liberal democracy or free trade unions.. the communist movement is inherent in these struggles and any 'victories' which fall short of the final victory are lessons for future struggles, no?

I'm also feel that maybe the comparison between Eastern Europe and the Middle East now is not so accurate due to how much Communism (big 'C') was what was being fought, but I'm not sure.. do you think that could make any difference for those who were/are involved?

Anyway, I'm putting off getting a haircut but I should probably go now.. looking a bit shaggy..

MT
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Feb 3 2011 16:52
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But was it also not massively inspirational?

to me? partly, not massively. but isn't this class debate over and over again about me and one or two other folks asking the same questions? where are the communist elements which could be progressive forces after the media hype ends? and what are the answers? none, expect people go on and on in saying we are not seeing things in the whole and are shallow and abstract and so on. pathetic indeed...

i want to stress one thing as some evidently didn't get it - me, or some others, NEVER said anything about libertarian communism! ever! it is ridiculous that some people started to operate with this in an attempt to ridicule our ideas. sick! i think we made our point very clear on the first page of this thread: http://libcom.org/forums/organise/egypt-solidarity-protests-washington-dc-29012011

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Feb 3 2011 17:13
Ed wrote:
I mean, can you give me any example of any uprising in history that didn't either start off with dodgy politics or never would have led to libertarian communism? I can only think of Russia 1917..

What about Spain, Ukraine and Kronstadt for example? They started as rational class struggle rooted within the working class people (factory workers, landless peasants or sailors who cares) they had movement behind them, or in the case of Kronstadt they had an ideology and revolutionary inheritance which manage them to create their own organisation quickly. They weren’t just about taking government down, they had a revolutionary agenda.

Of course, I don’t wanna be boring asshole who talks about some ancient stuff, but still anarchists should learn from their history (even though Kronstadt has nothing to do with it). We should analyse all failed revolutions and uprisings and not to repeat same stuff over and over again.

I see very big connection between collapse of Eastern European regimes and this case. It’s not the ideology of government what is important here it is the opposition and the idea of government itself. As I’m a realistic person who won’t shout “revolution” or “our time will come” (this sounds like an Iron Maiden song smile) when I see bunch of people on television who throw Molotov cocktails all over the place, I believe that without strong socialist movement people can’t achieve next step. This is the argument I’m repeating all over the time here.

Movement can not be created over the night but trough class struggle of working class. That’s why I’m member of an anarcho-syndicalist organisation and because of the fact that I see how spontaneous movements fail all the time I really can’t share enthusiasm of anyone here. Do you really believe that state, as organisation, is so week that it can not protects itself from an unorganised mob without greater political agenda?

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Feb 3 2011 19:10
MT wrote:
where are the communist elements which could be progressive forces after the media hype ends? and what are the answers? none, expect people go on and on in saying we are not seeing things in the whole and are shallow and abstract and so on. pathetic indeed...

Bruv, you're just not seeing things in the whole and you're being a bit shallow and abstract.. wink seriously though, I think you're seeing things too much in terms of which organisations are here or there. Yeah, there's no anarcho-syndicalist union in Egypt, but there isn't one in the UK either (or in most countries, tbh).. does that nullify the recent student protests? In fact, the language used in recent protests in the UK is extremely wooly and liberal (corporations should pay their taxes, everyone should have an equal chance to get a graduate job), but there are tactics being used which could potentially push beyond that. Movements, and their significance, are more than the sum of the language they use.

Kontrrazvedka wrote:
What about Spain, Ukraine and Kronstadt for example?

To be honest, this is a moot point as you guys have said you didn't say 'libertarian communism or nothing' so it's useless pursuing this line of argument.

Kontrrazvedka wrote:
We should analyse all failed revolutions and uprisings and not to repeat same stuff over and over again.

Of course, no one is saying "God, look at Egypt, doesn't it remind you of Kronstadt?".. of course, we have to analyse uprisings and whatever to learn from them. But that doesn't mean ignoring any positive class content.

I think you guys are being too dismissive with the whole "we're from the Eastern Bloc, we've seen this shit before, you bitches weren't there" attitude.. we don't know where this will end up. Like I said before, recent years (since 2007) have seen probably the biggest wave of labour unrest in Middle Eastern history. There is a new union federation independent of the state unions and talk of a general strike (say what you want about April 6th, there was a de facto general strike going on in Egypt throughout 2007-2008). So there is a class content to these protests. Different groups will want different things from all these protests, but the working class is there and it remains to be seen how far they will push their interests.

As a quick question, given that libertarian communism is not on the cards, where do you think that a movement like the Egyptian one could go that would rouse some excitement from you?

Kontrrazvedka wrote:
Movement can not be created over the night but trough class struggle of working class. That’s why I’m member of an anarcho-syndicalist organisation and because of the fact that I see how spontaneous movements fail all the time I really can’t share enthusiasm of anyone here. Do you really believe that state, as organisation, is so week that it can not protects itself from an unorganised mob without greater political agenda?

Meh, of course not. I'm in the IWA as well after all.. but my excitement (or lack thereof) about events in the class struggle doesn't hang on whether there exists an IWA section in the country..

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Feb 3 2011 19:34
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Of course, no one is saying "God, look at Egypt, doesn't it remind you of Kronstadt?".. of course, we have to analyse uprisings and whatever to learn from them. But that doesn't mean ignoring any positive class content.

A lot of people here are ignoring history and pass experiences, which is wrong. It wasn’t directed to you.

I'm not ignoring "any positive class content". Also, I don't think that this is a case with MT. As you could read from my article I posted here, I wrote about “positive class content”.

Quote:
I think you guys are being too dismissive with the whole "we're from the Eastern Bloc, we've seen this shit before, you bitches weren't there" attitude.. we don't know where this will end up. Like I said before, recent years (since 2007) have seen probably the biggest wave of labour unrest in Middle Eastern history. There is a new union federation independent of the state unions and talk of a general strike (say what you want about April 6th, there was a de facto general strike going on in Egypt throughout 2007-2008). So there is a class content to these protests. Different groups will want different things from all these protests, but the working class is there and it remains to be seen how far they will push their interests.

First of all, I don’t have "we're from the Eastern Bloc, we've seen this shit before, you bitches weren't there" attitude. The fact that I used Eastern Bloc as an example of what is the only realistic outcome (of course with possible variations) has nothing to do with such attitude. I didn’t see any valid argument against my claims and I still have a feeling that most of anarchists who are supporting these struggles are supporting them just because there’s big spontaneous riot.

As I was watching the News (on Croatian television – HRT1) right now I heard information that opposition parties/elites along with West are calling for new government. This is really similar to Eastern Europe. I don’t get it how can’t you see that.

Quote:
As a quick question, given that libertarian communism is not on the cards, where do you think that a movement like the Egyptian one could go that would rouse some excitement from you?

I’m “excited” watching what’s happening now. Especially, with these self-menadgnemt bodies, even though there is not a lot of information about them. Still, as I don’t see strong movement there I know that nothing will happen but liberal democracy. The strongest movements we ever had failed... Spontaneous riots can’t achieve much.

Quote:
Meh, of course not. I'm in the IWA as well after all.. but my excitement (or lack thereof) about events in the class struggle doesn't hang on whether there exists an IWA section in the country.

I'm not in the IWA and I would never base my judgment on "existance" of IWA section in some country.

MT
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Feb 3 2011 20:35
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I think you guys are being too dismissive with the whole "we're from the Eastern Bloc, we've seen this shit before, you bitches weren't there" attitude.. we don't know where this will end up. Like I said before, recent years (since 2007) have seen probably the biggest wave of labour unrest in Middle Eastern history. There is a new union federation independent of the state unions and talk of a general strike (say what you want about April 6th, there was a de facto general strike going on in Egypt throughout 2007-2008). So there is a class content to these protests. Different groups will want different things from all these protests, but the working class is there and it remains to be seen how far they will push their interests.

for the xth time, no this is not naturally a class content. to prove that you would have to make the links between the past and the present and clearly say what are those links. as for the federation, yes it is an independent reformist union calling for political general strike. so this is what you say is the class content? is this what interests libertarian communists when analyzing the events? is this the core for the future libertarian communists to potentially form their own organs? so that means we should start making contacts with this federation? I am just asking, cos I am getting really confused what are you really trying to say.

or perhaps we are using wrong terms? yes there is a union with specific interests and we will see how far they will push them, but so far they were very clear what they aim for and I see no specific reason to hope for something else they their reformist program. or do we know about some critical attitudes from within this federation? if so, come on, don't keep it for yourselves repeating we are abstract and shallow?

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Feb 3 2011 21:17
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
First of all, I don’t have "we're from the Eastern Bloc, we've seen this shit before, you bitches weren't there" attitude. The fact that I used Eastern Bloc as an example of what is the only realistic outcome (of course with possible variations) has nothing to do with such attitude. I didn’t see any valid argument against my claims and I still have a feeling that most of anarchists who are supporting these struggles are supporting them just because there’s big spontaneous riot.

I'm neither an anarchist nor am I watching this for the riot porn. I see it as the result of the culmination of a cycle of class struggle (the mantra I repeat ad nauseam is Rosa's dialectic in The Mass Strike).

Rather than Eastern Bloc examples, don't you think East Asian ones are more accurate?:

Hieronymous wrote:
1987 nationwide protests in South Korea against the Chun Doo Hwan military dictatorship on university campuses resulted in the police killing of Lee Han Yeol, a Yonsei University student, the resulting protest of which involved 1,600,000 people surrounding Seoul City Hall for his funeral. Soon after there were 3,475 strikes from June to September, completely paralyzing the South Korean economy. Most of these workplace struggles took on the appearance of an insurrection.

The cycle of strikes, economic and political, along with mass mobilizations of the working class, reached it's 2nd stage at the end of 1988 with the 128-day strike (the longest in S. Korea history) at Hyundai Heavy Industries in Ulsan. As the strike carried on into 1989, sympathy strikes of other Ulsan workers turned the Hyundai company town into a war zone; workers joined the strike from Hyundai Engine, Hyundai Motors, Hyundai Mipo Shipyards, and workers from other Hyundai subsidiaries and subcontractors in the Ulsan area fought pitched battles with the Korean Pinkertons, the kusadae.

The 3rd stage and peak of the struggle began with the occupation of the Goliat crane at Hyundai Heavy Industries in Ulsan in January 1990. It eventually spread, based on strike-support networks created by rank-and-file initiative and drew in the solidarity of large segments of the South Korean working class, it became a week-long general strike of workers at 146 enterprises across the country. The struggle ended in May 1990, but created a tradition of solidarity and class struggle from below that exists to this day -- and could be seen in the militant strike/77-day factory occupation at Ssangyong Motors in Pyeongtaek in the summer of 2009.

This seems incredibly similar to the strikes and riots in the textile town of Mahalla el-Kubra, beginning in 2007, that led to waves of strikes and even general strikes across Egypt for the last several years.

Another example that seems parallel with the events in Egypt today, but with vastly different results from those in South Korea was this:

Hieronymous wrote:
1989 Tienanmen Square protests began with a student occupation and led to mass strikes and the bloodbath of workers who replaced the students occupying Tienanmen Square. See the excellent accounts in A Moment of Truth: Workers’ Participation in China’s 1989 Democracy Movement and the Emergence of Independent Unions, published in 1990 by the Asian Monitor Resource Center in Hong Kong.

There were mass work stoppages in the Beijing and Tianjin areas, in addition to mass strikes that were beginning in Shanghai, Guangzhou and other industrial centers. And by the time of the massacre on June 3, most of the students had gone home and it was "workers [who] were at the forefront of initial attempts to form armed defence committees to defend the movement... [and] were to bear the full brunt of the repression (Aufheben #16)." The brutal repression was mostly because workers had begun to self-organize into the Workers' Autonomous Federation and that's why they incurred so much of the ruling party's wrath.

These East Asian scenarios seem so much more plausible than Eastern Bloc ones? No?

MT wrote:
... to potentially form their own organs

Unless you mean as forms of struggle that organically arise from the content of the current fight (again, like the strike coordinating organizations Rosa details in The Mass Strike), this fetish for organization is no different from orthodox Trotskyite boilerplate; you know, the organization and its leadership are everything and they bring consciousness to the stupid workers (or other lame rehashings -- even anarcho-syndicalist ones -- of Lenin's 1902 dogma in What Is To Be Done?).

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Feb 3 2011 21:12

@ Hieronymous

But still, isn't South Korea some kind of liberal democracy? What is exactly your point?

MT
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Feb 3 2011 21:10
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These East Asian scenarios seem so much more plausible than Eastern Bloc ones? No?

No.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 21:11
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
What about Spain, Ukraine and Kronstadt for example? They started as rational class struggle rooted within the working class people (factory workers, landless peasants or sailors who cares) they had movement behind them, or in the case of Kronstadt they had an ideology and revolutionary inheritance which manage them to create their own organisation quickly. They weren’t just about taking government down, they had a revolutionary agenda.
....
A lot of people here are ignoring history

Maybe you should follow your own advice and pay closer attention to history. Spain, Ukraine and Kronstadt most certainly did not start out as fully-defined revolutionary projects. Yes, the working class component (at least in Spain) was more self-consciously informed by revolutionary theory, but this was neither here nor there, as the CNT only became a great social force after the republic was declared, i.e. after the "bourgeois revolution" (which most certainly had a working-class component, as was visible in early republican efforts to suppress strikes and workers' organizations). The communization that existed in Barcelona or Aragon was not as a result of wiseguy ideologues telling the workers what "genuine communism" was about, it was simply the best and most efficient way for the working class to appropriate the wealth it had created. Yes, there were ideological debates that were informed by anarcho-syndicalist ideas, no they did not dictate the course of the revolution. Indeed the failure of the Spanish revolution speaks exactly to this reality. If the CNT leadership had followed the "most perfect doctrine of libertarian communism", it wouldn't have subsided into collaborationist popular front politics. But "men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please", as old Charlie would say.
Similarly the majority of Kronstadt sailors, were not political in an ideological sense on the dawn of the February revolution (the only ones who were strongly ideological were the Bolsheviks). Yet between February and the spring of 1917, Kronstadt had a direct workers' democracy. Again, there were intense ideological debates, informed by socialist thinking, but it would be ridiculous to say that all workers who took part in soviets were committed anarchists, and even the ones who were socialists defined their socialism in very broad and open-ended terms (this is why the majority of radical workers and peasants wanted an alliance of all socialists, because unlike the purist Bolsheviks, they did not see socialism as a party doctrine, but a practice).
The libertarian elements in all revolutions have emerged in practice first, and then in theory (and usually the theory only comes after the practice is defeated).
There are radical elements amongst the Egyptian workers now in revolt, and more are undoubtedly coming to see things differently as a result of all this (the experience of being up against an authoritarian state, liberal blabbermouths, and islamist opportunists is certainly an enlightening one). It is entirely presumptuous and even contemptuous to claim that their struggle does not count because it's not being carried through federated anarcho-syndicalist unions or anarchist militias.
Your friend MT claims that he is unjustly being accused of indulging in fluffy abstractions, but what do you call it when you measure reality against your ideas rather than vice-versa?

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Feb 3 2011 21:16
MT wrote:
Quote:
These East Asian scenarios seem so much more plausible than Eastern Bloc ones? No?

No.

I really mean no disrespect, but are you capable of supporting your conclusions?

If so, how is Egypt in 2011 so similar to Slovakia in 1989? Please explain.

RedHughs
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Feb 3 2011 21:21
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the point is that ANYONE can use communist tactics and they will not be communist tactics. and also - proletariat is no GOD. I feel like many people here have some proletarian "religion" and anything working men (and even better if women as well...) do is so so class related. well, to me it is not and i see no communist tendencies in such things without wider context. basically people here with emotional ties to egypt or any revolt have difficulty to answer what are the libertarian elements to the uprising. we have read about committees doing things people naturally do when outside services are not provided to them by usual means, including safety and defence of private property. what is so revolutionary or libertarian about that? where is the revolutionary goal in it? the new egypt/tunisia/whatever? egypt without mubarak or whoever? egypt with new ruling elite? or something else? the poor are not god, the proletariat is not god. we need to see not only methods but also goals. or we end up like some lifestylist anarchists admiring freedom and selfemancipation and other principles which are empty without wider context connected with goals the methods are used for.

I think this argument is important even if I disagree with it. It is important not to uncritically support all mass action.

The question I'd ask is, "does every uprising have to begin with libertarian intentions?"

What prevents the process of the rising being what generates those intentions and tendencies?

And here, I'll toss "wider context" back at you. The wider context has in the past been a factor in determining how much scope the proletariat has for both self-organization and the independent development of ideas. The wider context of world-wide economic collapse is important here since any simple organization of the capitalist order will still face the brutal austerity now inflicted on all poor nations (ie, massive food price rises driven by speculation and financial imbalance).

Just as a note on how things are far from clear, the new "Independent Trade Union Federation" are essentially the previously state-controlled unions reorganizing themselves (or at least a fraction of them). Thus I would be a little dubious about them moving towards communism (but I can't claim expertise here so correct me if I'm wrong)

I am cheering for the masses evolving communist conceptions. That's far from a given but I believe it's possible.

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Feb 3 2011 21:49
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
@ Hieronymous

But still, isn't South Korea some kind of liberal democracy? What is exactly your point?

If you ask the workers there, it's a class-divided society. They hate whatever form that takes; don't you?

But my point being that the militants who gained class consciousness in the shopfloor battles and in the street fights in the 1987-1990 strike wave were some of the first to coordinate strike committees across South Korea in the 1996-1997 General Strike. You don't overthrow class society in fell swoop, you fight, you learn and you come back the next time better informed and with more class conscious comrades who've got some experience. It's a kinda like class war pedagogy. Human beings make revolution, but never at the time and place of their choice. These skirmishes are like practice exercises so that we're ready for the next opening (unless you're some kind of Lenin-style volunteerist who thinks your mere determination will allow you to leap over objective conditions).

Just as a point of contrast, are there class divisions where you live?

MT
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Feb 3 2011 21:19
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There are radical elements amongst the Egyptian workers now in revolt

name them please.

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and more are undoubtedly coming to see things differently as a result of all this

sounds like religion

Quote:
It is entirely presumptuous and even contemptuous to claim that their struggle does not count because it's not being carried through federated anarcho-syndicalist unions or anarchist militias.

noone said so and i hope noone thinks so...

MT
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Feb 3 2011 21:25
Hieronymous wrote:
MT wrote:
Quote:
These East Asian scenarios seem so much more plausible than Eastern Bloc ones? No?

No.

I really mean no disrespect, but are you capable of supporting your conclusions?

If so, how is Egypt in 2011 so similar to Slovakia in 1989? Please explain.

All I say is that I see no reason to claim what you claim. I do not compare what is more suitable or plausible cos I miss the facts to build such conclusions upon. I never said there is EE scenario (except we will see a new ruling elite and so far we have no reason to think that we will not see also new mass which will be into electoral politics). And I don't think the problem with understanding it is in my bad English...

MT
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Feb 3 2011 21:29
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The question I'd ask is, "does every uprising have to begin with libertarian intentions?"

What prevents the process of the rising being what generates those intentions and tendencies?

no, nothing has to begin with libertarian intentions. the question in fact is - can we find such intentions there? what elements of the movement are the proponents of such intentions? how can we get in touch, discuss, cooperate, help each other?

i think the intentions are generated by the dilemmas of the struggle and can be diverse and so far we know totally too little about them. and even those things which we know are very problematic (from the committees in tunisia to the general strike in egypt or the company selfmanagement which we know basically one sentence about)

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 21:31

The "1989 revolutions" in Eastern Europe are markedly different from what's happening in Egypt right now.
Many, if not all, were informed by explicitly reactionary religious nationalism (Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia), not benign "liberal democracy". Many were also quickly resolved through political coups (some peaceful as in Russia and Hungary, some bloody like in Romania, some extremely bloody like in Yugoslavia). There was certainly no case in which hundreds of thousands of people were locked in pitched battle with state militias (something similar although on a much smaller scale occurred in Romania, but really there is no comparison).
The Egyptian protest movement, seems to me - and I accept that my knowledge is incomplete coming from second-hand sources, but I don't believe all journalists are wrong on this - self-consciously secular (a rare feature in the E. European context) and bent on not accepting compromise with the regime and its croneys (this was also rare in 1989 E. Europe, when most post-Communist governments were nothing but crypto-stalinist supporters of the old order in "modern" garb).
Of course it is entirely possible that Egypt will end up with a "stability" liberal government, but if it does, it's not thanks to a 1989-like context. The context is significantly different.

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Hieronymous
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Feb 3 2011 21:45
MT wrote:
All I say is that I see no reason to claim what you claim.

Please refer to where I claimed anything.

MT wrote:
I do not compare what is more suitable or plausible cos I miss the facts to build such conclusions upon. I never said there is EE scenario (except we will see a new ruling elite and so far we have no reason to think that we will not see also new mass which will be into electoral politics). And I don't think the problem with understanding it is in my bad English...

I also agree that it has nothing to do with your language competency. It's your ideology that I disagree with. You seem to be imposing your political views over events, rather than seeing them dialectically, with a nuanced interpretation of what's been happening with class relations in Egypt during the most recent cycle of struggles (the strikes, mostly in textiles, since 2007).

As for a "new ruling elite," does this even need being said? We live in class society and as classes recompose, we see new factions of the ruling class rise to power.