Egypt: What exactly are you supporting?

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MT
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Feb 3 2011 23:08

Khawaga I am speaking about what these elements do when I ask who they are. I know what after waves of strikes people just don't disappear, but I try to see the events from the perspective what what these people do now. very simple example - it is fine to know that there is so group of radicals in this or that revolt or radical event but what do they do with their radical perspectives in a specific event? cos without this i see only riot porn with one example of selfmanaged company about which we know basically nothing, plus questionable committees in Tunisia. and i repeat myself again and again and it still is not clear?!?!

MT
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Feb 3 2011 23:11
Khawaga wrote:
MT wrote:
antiizraeli elements of the events in Egypt

Fucking hell. Probably every Arab is against Israel and pro-Palestinianm but it's not an "element" to the protests. These are not folks that want to drive the jews into the sea but folks that are fed up with the Egyptian govt's complicity in the occupation of Gaza. And where the fuck do you think all of this started? Protests were allowed briefly right after the start of the second Intifada and during those protests people started shouting anti-Mubarak slogans. Seriously, MT you are getting fucking annoying as you seem to be continually talking out of your arse and don't bother to actually read up on anything.

i read what you said about the izraeli stuff. and all i say is that there is this sentiment and I know where it comes from but IT IS THERE. or have i said something else. prove that or stop attacking me.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 23:13
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
I heard information that opposition parties/elites along with West are calling for new government. This is really similar to Eastern Europe.

This is hardly a relevant similarity. The US would call for a new government if this was happening in any European country (with the possible exception of Russia), or Mexico, or Israel, or Japan; basically any subordinate state that is useful to the interests of the American government.

Khawaga wrote:
For what it's worth Kontrrazvedka, I actually think that you're correct in believing that the most likely outcome of this is a liberal capitalist democratic government

And I am increasingly inclined to agree on that specific point actually. Where I differ from K. is on the point that this struggle (in which vast segments of the Egyptian working class are involved) is not really relevant (I am paraphrasing, but please K., don't get pedantic and tell me that's not what you really meant) for communists because the workers are not self-consciously communist. Egypt is not a deja-vu of Eastern Europe, or any other failed revolution. It stands on its own terms, and the outcome, as grim as it looks right now, is not oh, so predictable as to render the struggle itself irrelevant. Radical politics can and do develop as a consequence of struggle; they do not absolutely require to be imported by communist activists.

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Hieronymous
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Feb 3 2011 23:18
Khawaga wrote:
By the way Hieronymous, Cairo has roughly 25 million inhabitants not 8 million. Though no-one really knows the exact figure. Still that leaves 55 million more. It is significant that those instances of workers ejecting their CEOs from workplaces is outside of Cairo. Perhaps a political struggle in Cairo and an "economic" one taking place other places?

I stand corrected. I just took the official municipal population of 6,758,581 from the Cairo wikipedia entry. It said that the metropolitan area has 19,439,541.

But on the pattern of many counties, more than a third of the Egyptian population lives in the capital metro area. It seems like most of the industrial estates are north of there in the delta. True? And the Suez Canal seems like one of the most important chokepoints in the flow of commodities on earth. Any comments on the dynamics of the Suez area?

And Kontrrazvedka, thanks for the detailed response. As for you, MT, I'll see you in lib community -- or not.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 23:17
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
@ mateofthebloke
Do you really believe that EU will allow military junta to exist?

I was talking about Egypt! WTF. Read the article I linked to if you want to know why a military-supported government could be a likely outcome.

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Khawaga
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Feb 3 2011 23:17

There's more than just the one company, I read about several. Some of them are in the long thread about Egypt. The groups in Mahallah, Kafr-el Dawwar, the satellite cities around Cairo etc. Sorry, I don't have time to dig them up for you. Whether these groups are active right now remains to be seen; we simply do not know much about what goes on outside the major urban centers (Cairo and Alexandria, to a lesser degree Suez and Ismailia) because there are no one there reporting and they are less likely to use social media or speak English.

MT wrote:
it is fine to know that there is so group of radicals in this or that revolt or radical event but what do they do with their radical perspectives in a specific event?

I take your point on this. Now it is unclear what they do. Maybe they don't know what to do now; this is, after all, a situation that no one but the people that lived before 1952/56 would have any experience of (52/56 because that's when the labour movement was relatively strong and militant, but the most militant folks were hung by Nasser). Maybe their priority now might be to protect themselves from state security and police. I certainly believe that what needs to be done now is to start a wave of occupations and strikes in order to continue the uprising because you can only protest for that long.

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Iskra
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Feb 3 2011 23:22

@ mateofthebloke

Do you have some kind of problems? I’m tired of this clusterfucking... Read fucking posts!

When I said “it similar to the Eastern Europe” similarity was the fact that political opposition, not the people on the streets but ELITES, have support of the EU to form new government.

I never claimed that Egyptian working class don’t take part in the protests (I’m not basket case) and I never said that their struggle is not significant – to quote myself:

Quote:
Usprkos svemu, događaji u arapskim zemljama od velikog su značenja za nas sve. Oni predstavljaju nastavak borbe i revolta prouzrokovan krizom kapitalizma, ali i represijom države i marionetskih vlada koje djeluju kao sluge stranog kapitala. Ova borba svakog dana sve više jača i u našem dvorištu. Sjetimo se samo studentskih, seljačkih i radničkih borbi diljem Hrvatske, studentskih prosvjeda u Velikoj Britaniji i Italiji, ustanka u Grčkoj itd (use Google translate from Croatian).

Link: http://masa-hr.org/content/%C5%A1-mo%C5%BEemo-o%C4%8Dekivati-od-revolucija%E2%80%9C-u-arapskim-zemljama

MT
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Feb 3 2011 23:22
Quote:
There's more than just the one company, I read about several.

i read only about one here on libcom, so if anyone has more info, please post it.

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Iskra
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Feb 3 2011 23:23
mateofthebloke wrote:
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
@ mateofthebloke
Do you really believe that EU will allow military junta to exist?

I was talking about Egypt! WTF. Read the article I linked to if you want to know why a military-supported government could be a likely outcome.

I'm also talking about Egypt and EU wouldn't allow military junta in Egypt.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 23:24
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
mateofthebloke wrote:
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
@ mateofthebloke
Do you really believe that EU will allow military junta to exist?

I was talking about Egypt! WTF. Read the article I linked to if you want to know why a military-supported government could be a likely outcome.

I'm also talking about Egypt and EU wouldn't allow military junta in Egypt.

Explain.

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Iskra
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Feb 3 2011 23:30

@ mateofthebloke

Political elites of EU are keeping their eye on Egypt. Their ideological goal is liberal democracy and free market everywhere so if they do not interfere their countries would lose their weight in global politics. In the eye of European public military junta in Egypt would be condemned and EU elites would have to justify why they didn’t act. Why do you think that they care so much about war criminals from Yugoslav wars?

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Khawaga
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Feb 3 2011 23:36
Quote:
i read only about one here on libcom, so if anyone has more info, please post it.

Dude, I've got more a bit more crap to worry about than digging through thousands of tweets, blog posts, personal correspondence, chat logs (which I don't keep) etc. for you. I spend most of my time making sure that my friends and comrades are safe. The information I glean about interesting class based politics is based on my trying to figure out whether my friends are ok. That's why I am more obsessed with this than other posters. I've got friends who are putting their lives on the line.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 23:39
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
When I said “it similar to the Eastern Europe” similarity was the fact that political opposition, not the people on the streets but ELITES, have support of the EU to form new government.

I am really not trying to be patronizing, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying above. The fact that a major world power is trying to push for the formation of a new government in a country on the brink of social chaos that it has a vested interest in is an absolutely banal truism. I don't see how it is relevant for understanding what's happening in Egypt.

Quote:
I never claimed that Egyptian working class don’t take part in the protests

I know you didn't. It's patently obvious that most of those involved in these events are workers, and I didn't say you thought otherwise. What I did say was that you downplayed their struggle because of the apparent lack of explicitly communist politics.

Quote:
(I’m not basket case) and I never said that their struggle is not significant

You did say:
"I simply asked why libertarian communists should (Marxists or what so ever) support this when we can’t see any affiliations to our politics."
This sounds more like a statement than a question to me, and what you're saying is that a struggle against state aggression in which workers are overwhelmingly participating is not to be "supported" (whatever that means; to me it means, at the very least, "treated as relevant") on account of it not being informed by explicitly communist ideology. In other words, you are saying that their struggle is not relevant, at least not for libertarian communists (which is most people here).

Quote:
Quote:
Usprkos svemu, događaji u arapskim zemljama od velikog su značenja za nas sve. Oni predstavljaju nastavak borbe i revolta prouzrokovan krizom kapitalizma, ali i represijom države i marionetskih vlada koje djeluju kao sluge stranog kapitala. Ova borba svakog dana sve više jača i u našem dvorištu. Sjetimo se samo studentskih, seljačkih i radničkih borbi diljem Hrvatske, studentskih prosvjeda u Velikoj Britaniji i Italiji, ustanka u Grčkoj itd (use Google translate from Croatian).

Link: http://masa-hr.org/content/%C5%A1-mo%C5%BEemo-o%C4%8Dekivati-od-revolucija%E2%80%9C-u-arapskim-zemljama

Given the awkwardness of automatic translations, I think I'm going to pass on that until you post an actual English translation. In any case, this argument has to do with your posts in this thread not necessarily with what you've written elsewhere.

MT
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Feb 3 2011 23:41
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
i read only about one here on libcom, so if anyone has more info, please post it.

Dude, I've got more a bit more crap to worry about than digging through thousands of tweets, blog posts, personal correspondence, chat logs (which I don't keep) etc. for you. I spend most of my time making sure that my friends and comrades are safe. The information I glean about interesting class based politics is based on my trying to figure out whether my friends are ok. That's why I am more obsessed with this than other posters. I've got friends who are putting their lives on the line.

is your name "anyone"?!

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2011 23:42
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
@ mateofthebloke

Political elites of EU are keeping their eye on Egypt. Their ideological goal is liberal democracy and free market everywhere so if they do not interfere their countries would lose their weight in global politics. In the eye of European public military junta in Egypt would be condemned and EU elites would have to justify why they didn’t act. Why do you think that they care so much about war criminals from Yugoslav wars?

The EU does not control how capital and the market work (indeed the current crisis is a painful reminder of that), and it most certainly does not control how most non-European regimes develop. Does the EU like the Chinese government, or the Burmese government, or the Iranian government, or the Libyian government? No, but it can't do anything to change these essentially militaristic and authoritarian regimes. Not even the US can do that.

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Khawaga
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Feb 3 2011 23:49
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is your name "anyone"?!

considering that I am about the only one bothering to engage with you, yes I guess. And please fuck off if you're just going to be fucking snide. I really don't understand why I bothered to actually respond to you know.

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Iskra
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Feb 3 2011 23:53
Quote:
I am really not trying to be patronizing, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying above. The fact that a major world power is trying to push for the formation of a new government in a country on the brink of social chaos that it has a vested interest in is an absolutely banal truism. I don't see how it is relevant for understanding what's happening in Egypt.

Because this political opposition will in the end form the government. If that is not relevant I don't know what is.

Quote:
I know you didn't. It's patently obvious that most of those involved in these events are workers, and I didn't say you thought otherwise. What I did say was that you downplayed their struggle because of the apparent lack of explicitly communist politics.

I'm not "downplaying" anyting, I'm just saying that this can't be anything more - like a some kind of social revolution.

Quote:
You did say:
"I simply asked why libertarian communists should (Marxists or what so ever) support this when we can’t see any affiliations to our politics."
This sounds more like a statement than a question to me, and what you're saying is that a struggle against state aggression in which workers are overwhelmingly participating is not to be "supported" (whatever that means; to me it means, at the very least, "treated as relevant") on account of it not being informed by explicitly communist ideology. In other words, you are saying that their struggle is not relevant, at least not for libertarian communists (which is most people here).

First it was mostly about anarchist organisations... why should they support it. But also it was about individuals. I don't think that asking questions is wrong. I don't support Egyptian people, but Egyptian working class. I support these (almost invisible) comitties and self-manadgment. I'm saying that their struggle is not revolution and that it won't lead to it.

Quote:
Given the awkwardness of automatic translations, I think I'm going to pass on that until you post an actual English translation. In any case, this argument has to do with your posts in this thread not necessarily with what you've written elsewhere.

Automatic translation is ok. My article is just a sum of my ideas you read here, so it's the same thing.

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Iskra
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Feb 3 2011 23:56
mateofthebloke wrote:
The EU does not control how capital and the market work (indeed the current crisis is a painful reminder of that), and it most certainly does not control how most non-European regimes develop. Does the EU like the Chinese government, or the Burmese government, or the Iranian government, or the Libyian government? No, but it can't do anything to change these essentially militaristic and authoritarian regimes. Not even the US can do that.

Those regimes are stable, this one will not be and it will depend on foreign help etc.

MT
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Feb 3 2011 23:57
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
is your name "anyone"?!

considering that I am about the only one bothering to engage with you, yes I guess. And please fuck off if you're just going to be fucking snide. I really don't understand why I bothered to actually respond to you know.

you are just giving too much importance to yourself and misinterpret.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 4 2011 00:04
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
Because this political opposition will in the end form the government. If that is not relevant I don't know what is.

Not necessarily; the political opposition is pretty weak, if not puny, right now. I doubt a successful "liberal" government could be formed right now, if Mubarak was to all of a sudden just leave. The threat posed by the upper echelons of the military seems like a genuine and increasingly menacing force.

Quote:
I don't support Egyptian people, but Egyptian working class. I support these (almost invisible) comitties and self-manadgment. I'm saying that their struggle is not revolution and that it won't lead to it.

This is pretty much the first time in this thread you're saying that, and I wonder what took you so long. Clearly I wasn't arguing against you because I support the "Egyptian people" but it really did seem from your previous posts that your attitude towards these events was exceedingly dismissive and grandstanding. Much time would've been saved if you had posted the above on the first page instead of playing the contrarian.
Fair enough on not seeing this as a revolution per se.

Quote:
Automatic translation is ok. My article is just a sum of my ideas you read here, so it's the same thing.

Ok, if you say so; I'll have a look.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 4 2011 00:08
Kontrrazvedka wrote:
mateofthebloke wrote:
The EU does not control how capital and the market work (indeed the current crisis is a painful reminder of that), and it most certainly does not control how most non-European regimes develop. Does the EU like the Chinese government, or the Burmese government, or the Iranian government, or the Libyian government? No, but it can't do anything to change these essentially militaristic and authoritarian regimes. Not even the US can do that.

Those regimes are stable, this one will not be and it will depend on foreign help etc.

They are clearly not stable (remember Iran 2 years ago?) and only China and Libya (out of those few examples I mentioned; the list is obviously much longer) are really efficient at suppressing all dissent, although one wonders about Libya right now.

Mark.
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Feb 4 2011 12:46
RedHughs wrote:
Just as a note on how things are far from clear, the new "Independent Trade Union Federation" are essentially the previously state-controlled unions reorganizing themselves (or at least a fraction of them). Thus I would be a little dubious about them moving towards communism (but I can't claim expertise here so correct me if I'm wrong)

Red - just to pick up on this, I don't see anything in the article you link to about 'previously state-controlled unions'. It does talk about 'existing independent unions'.

Quote:
The new trade union centre, which brings together existing independent unions of health sector employees and tax inspectors as well as worker representatives from the country’s key manufacturing locations, public employees and other sectors, announced its formation at a meeting on Sunday at Tahrir Square in Cairo and immediately issued the general-strike call. It also announced the formation of committees in workplaces across the country to protect workplace infrastructure.

That said I know very little about the new union federation or the background of unions in Egypt.

Edited to add link from CGT North Africa:

Avanza el sindicalismo autónomo en Egipto

Quote:
En reunión celebrada el domingo día 30 de enero, el sindicato de los cobradores de contribuciones por bienes raíces (REDA), ( que participa en la red sindical euro mediterránea, junto a la CGT), el sindicato de los técnicos de la salud, el sindicato de jubilados, el sindicato independiente de maestros, más distintos grupos independientes de trabajadores, representantes de distintas empresas y con participación de la CTUWS, han dado un paso importante para la construcción de una confederación autónoma de sindicatos egipcios.

I think that's the tax inspectors who are involved in the Euro-Mediterranean union network with the CGT (along with the CNT-F, some of the Algerian and Moroccan autonomous unions and the CGTT from Tunisia)

Maybe some of the other unions mentioned are formerly state controlled.

RedHughs
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Feb 4 2011 02:42

There was another link I can't find now which gave me that impression more strongly.

But all of my information is all fairly vague so I won't speculate further.

Valeriano Orobó...
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Feb 4 2011 04:21
Samotnaf wrote:
The road to blinkered ignorance is paved with "communist" intentions.

Judgement of oneself and of others, of movements on the basis of intentions is for those who live in their heads, those who want to ignore the tedious social effect of their activity and who reduce the social effect of movements of contestation to only their most probable outcome and their most easily observed contradictions, flattening out loads of different social movements and their nuances into some indistinguishable "incorrectness". Such useless impotence learns nothing new because it is incapable of making progress, even the slightest amelioration in their own miserable conditions, and projects such incapacity onto any analysis of any aspect of social contestation. It simply expresses an arrogant smug will to separation, a desire to contemptuously dismiss any current risks in the will to master one's own life. One might just as well endlessly repeat, "It'll all end in tears".

FUCKING SPOT ON!

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Feb 4 2011 08:35

I wholeheartedly agree with Valeriano Orobó's appraisal of Samotnaf's post.

The article Why Mubarak is Out is one of the best accounts I've read yet of the different factions of the Egyptian state and its rival security forces and state-sanctioned baltagiya gangs. It tells why protesters so warmly greeted soldiers and the arrival of the military.

Here's an excerpt:

Paul Amar wrote:
The Armed Forces of the Arab Republic of Egypt are quite unrelated to the Markazi or police and see themselves as a distinct kind of state altogether. One could say that Egypt is still a “military dictatorship” (if one must use that term) since this is still the same regime that the Free Officers’ Revolution installed in the 1950s. But the military has been marginalized since Egyptian President Anwar Sadat signed the Camp David Accords with Israel and the United States. Since 1977, the military has not been allowed to fight anyone. Instead, the generals have been given huge aid payoffs by the US. They have been granted concessions to run shopping malls in Egypt, develop gated cities in the desert and beach resorts on the coasts. And they are encouraged to sit around in cheap social clubs.

These buy-offs have shaped them into an incredibly organized interest group of nationalist businessmen. They are attracted to foreign investment; but their loyalties are economically and symbolically embedded in national territory. As we can see when examining any other case in the region (Pakistan, Iraq, the Gulf), US military-aid money does not buy loyalty to America; it just buys resentment. In recent years, the Egyptian military has felt collectively a growing sense of national duty, and has developed a sense of embittered shame for what it considers its “neutered masculinity:” its sense that it was not standing up for the nation’s people. The nationalistic Armed Forces want to restore their honor and they are disgusted by police corruption and baltagiya brutality. And it seems that the military, now as “national capitalists,” have seen themselves as the blood rivals of the neoliberal “crony capitalists” associated with Hosni Mubarak’s son Gamal who have privatized anything they can get their hands on and sold the country’s assets off to China, the US, and Persian Gulf capital.

Thus we can see why in the first stage of this revolution, on Friday 28 January, we saw a very quick “coup” of the military against the police and Central Security, and disappearance of Gamal Mubarak (the son) and of the detested Interior Minister Habib el-Adly. However the military is also split by some internal contradictions. Within the Armed Forces there are two elite sub-branches, the Presidential Guard and the Air Force. These remained closer to Mubarak while the broader military turned against him. This explains why you can had the contradictory display of the General Chief of the Armed Forces, Muhammad Tantawi, wading in among the protesters to show support on 30 January, while at the same time the chief of the Air Force was named Mubarak’s new Prime Minister and sent planes to strafe the same protesters. This also explains why the Presidential Guard protected the Radio/Television Building and fought against protesters on 28 January rather than siding with them.

Samotnaf
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Feb 4 2011 08:18
Quote:
it seems that the military, now as “national capitalists,” have seen themselves as the blood rivals of the neoliberal “crony capitalists” associated with Hosni Mubarak’s son Gamal who have privatized anything they can get their hands on and sold the country’s assets off to China, the US, and Persian Gulf capital.

I wonder what are the chances that, assuming that this section of the army wins out, a future government re-nationalises these assets - and what kind of international crisis that might provoke. Just a thought - we're a long way off from that.

bastarx
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Feb 4 2011 10:14
Paul Amar wrote:
Since 1977, the military has not been allowed to fight anyone.

Not entirely true. Egypt took part in the 91 Gulf War although only with one or two divisions for the four days of land warfare IIRC.

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Steven.
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Feb 4 2011 12:12

Kontrrazvedka, thanks for your detailed explanation of your position above.

It was very helpful. Having explained it like that, I think most people here would agree with you on your main points.

Looking at your argument with mate of the bloke, it looks like you were arguing at crossed purposes for much of the time. (By the way, regarding some of your comments directed at mate of the bloke, you should probably know that he is from Eastern Europe as well).

I think that you may have mistaken idea of people on here "supporting" uncritically this movement as a whole, which is patently not the case.

You seem quite frustrated with some of the debate that has happened, but unfortunately it was difficult to see what you were actually trying to say. And regarding hostility you received, I didn't see much directed at you, but the comments of MT right from the start were extremely rude, which didn't help the tone of discussion at all.

MT has continued to be quite rude throughout the discussion, and I don't quite understand where the vitriol is coming from. Perhaps some of it is due to language issues on one level? I don't know, but if people were rude to you in return I think it is probably because you were grouped with MT as you seemed to be arguing the same point.

We do value your contributions here a great deal, and look forward to seeing a proper English translation of your article at some point.

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Khawaga
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Feb 4 2011 14:50
Quote:
you are just giving too much importance to yourself and misinterpret.

Ok,… as I said I actually tried to engage with you. Why … would anyone else bother doing anything for you considering you've been…, don't bother to back up anything you say and just continue with spewing snide one to two liners.

admin: flaming removed. Let's try to be polite everyone, including MT

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Feb 4 2011 15:47

To those it applies to;
most mass revolts and unrest - unless unusually geographically isolated - generally have various classes involved whose alliances and antagonisms shift with events. In this case it's hardly surprising that after 30 yrs of dictatorship an initial revolt would have populist characteristics, considering the broad range of opposition and dissatisfaction with the regime. To recognise this historical reality is not to support it as a tactic, nor to dismiss a particular conjunction of a moment in history as fatally undermining all present and future class struggle.

But to judge the whole 'movement' only as one homogenous entity is, ironically, to uncritically accept the cross-class nationalist formation you claim to criticise; the society this revolt emerges from is not homogenous but a class society, manifested geographically and class-wise in different neighbourhoods, productively in different workplaces, socially in different networks etc. What is occurring in different locations will therefore have different meanings and consequences for different classes; what one organises for and how. Shopkeepers/petit bourgeois organising to protect their capital or bosses to protect their factory are very different priorities to those of working class areas. We don't know the extent of differentiation nor how it will develop. We do know much of the inspiration and confidence for this revolt was encouraged by wildcat strikes of recent years. We also know that the workers movement is undefeated and can assume it will be active in some form, we know millions of proletarians are on the streets. If this revolt 'only' delivers a new regime it is not the end of class struggle, but class struggle will be partly determined by the outcome - and will partly determine the outcome by its strengths and limits. It will also learn something from its experiences (unlike those who dismiss events for being less than perfect or for not conforming to narrow ideologies). That is what, in my understanding, is the interest in events people express here, looking at what is happening in the process of unfolding events and their class relations.

You cling to your ideology as if it must be seen to be able to reassuringly account for everything that will happen. But it doesn't, nor does your personal history - as Hieronymous & MOTB show, outcomes are variable and cherry-picking history to reinforce your predictions is pointless. History is not inevitably repeating itself along a laid out track. It's ridiculous to imply (even if not openly state) that because there are no official 'libertarian communist' groups nothing radical can happen or that class struggle won't push itself forward.

I get the impression that if what we've heard about working class neighbourhood committees, wildcat strikes, occupations etc were reported as being acts of self-identified 'libertarian communists' - rather than 'ordinary' workers - then the dismissive attitude would be quite the opposite. This is an upside down concept of 'class consciousness'. The absence of your preferred models of organisation drawn from the workers movements of 80 or so years ago is unlikely to be a problem! Appropriate organisation can emerge from the needs of the struggle (as it apparently has already), it will have to if those struggles are to advance; organisation is the organisation of struggle and its development, if it's anything; the existence of struggle is a form of organisation. The emergence and experience of self-organisation in these events is already a partial victory worthy of study and analysis - rather than the shallow dismissals (that one expects from conservatives) we've tolerated here. For you, the absence of your cadre and your precious ideology is a predetermined fatal weakness - but, if judged by your arrogant reactionary performance on these threads, it's a definite bonus for class struggle.