Coming Soon: Anarchism for Drunk Punks
Jan 17 2007 03:26
#32
Well look at all this excitement. Cheers Stinkerbell for saying pretty much what I would have said on it! Punx and junglists unite!
Quote:
"Punks (yes, even the drunk ones) are irrelevant to anarchism."
What about other musical subcultures? Just about everyone has some musical identification. So junglists, clubbers, hiphoppers, ravers, cheese lovers, jazz freaks, indie kids, emos, metallers, skankers, 80s freaks, rockers, pop music fans etc. are all irrelevant to anarchism? In total all these different groups make up the bulk of the population. Yeah - sod these people, irrelevant to the anarchist project.
Quote:
in fact I'm pretty sure he doesnt, he's pretty fucking scathing about "urban clowns"
Ha! I love the punks really, though I ain't a punk. Does that make me relevant to anarchism?
Just to reiterate this:
Quote:
"Also....genuine question, how do people who think this is a bad idea think it should be handled? Would they rather that people didn't correct said punks about what anarchism means?"
Quote:
"So does that mean that some people should perhaps write an "anarchism for confused Norwich anarchists" pamphlet so that you guys might understand why targetting yourself at any insular sub-culture is pointless?"
Just to clarify - this is not about targeting an insular subculture. This is about setting a few people straight about what anarchism is. In no way is this an attempt to create a "political punk scene" I, like most people on these boards (apart from guy, for whom the masses that like music are irrelevant) would love to see a mass working class movement. It ain't going to be here anytime soon, and in the meantime, why not spread our ideas around a little? The fact is most people have no idea what anarchism is about: and we're going to stay a pathetic little political subculture with no relevance if we keep things this way.
Quote:
So Rich, what is anarchism?. I am not an anarchist, but I used to be, and I am quite sympathetic to anarchism. To me though, anarchism is either a strand of the working class movement, with in my opinion a proud, and honourable tradition, or it is absolutely worthless.
Maybe the question shouldn't be 'what is anarchism', but what is class, and what is class struggle. Though of course that wouldn't have as much resonance with people who spray a circled @ on their leather jackets.
Anarchism to me is a strand of the working class movement with a proud and honourable tradition. And you are correct, that wouldn't have the same resonance as what is anarchism for punks, which is why it is called "Anarchism for drunk punks" rather than "class struggle libertarian communism - the answer for the working classes".
Quote:
Sorry about the self righteous prick part but if punks are real people with jobs, kids and school (and they are) why not address then alongside all the other people with jobs/kids & school rather than creating propagandha which only targets them. To me it looks like punx talking to punx about politics that they don't have the confidence to push outside of their subculture.
As Stinkerbell said I ain't a punk (I'm a junglist!) so it's not punx talking to punx. It is also not a substitute for addressing the working class as a whole. However, it just makes sense to me to address those who are in the sphere i operate in with these benefit gigs directly in a way they might find accessible. Sure, I could try flogging them copies of Red and Black Revolution, but I'd prefer to give something away that will a) be likely to actually be read b) a promotional thing: making the benefit gigs more profitable and well attended.
Jan 17 2007 10:30
#33
I can't believe I'm taking this side on this debate... 
I think it's perfectly fair enough.
NA have used the benefit gigs well to raise a fair bit of cash. Whatever my opinion on NA, this cash has then eb used for a variety of decent causes and donations.
If these gigs are doing well and making money then there's no need to stop them, or start organising gigs in a scene you don't know as well and won't make as much money in.
If you're doing these gigs with loads of punks at, you might as well hand out a few leaflets that might relate to the people who go to them. If they make one drunk punk act like a bit less of a dick (until they get drunk again and forget what they read), then that alone has been worthwhile. If it doesn't, rich has wasted a few hours and a few quid on a few leaflets. Big deal.
Jan 17 2007 10:41
#34
too many things to say but;
1. could this try to remain a norwich anarchists organising thread, please? without all the excess aggression from external sources, (and internal sources).
2. perhaps there arent some kinds of punk in norwich anarchists any more; that doesnt mean there arent people who like punk music, go to punk gigs, consider themselves some kind of punk.... just not on your terms and criteria.
3. punks are people primarily and anarchism is, in my opinion, relevant to all people.
4. if you have problems with people in norwich anarchists, please say it clearly and in a constructive way rather than sniping snidely from the sidelines. there isnt any positivity in slagging people off under the guise of crticism of practice. im sensing a lot of resentment from some quarters towards any kind of education, which isnt very helpful. there are things we always have to be aware of, like not over-intellectualising, and sometimes we make mistakes and have to rethink how we can get messages across to ordinary people and not alienating people. this, i hope, shouldnt be a reason to try to slag people as individuals...
5. we're all, at least hopefully, trying to make a difference here. sometimes we choose different routes because we think they will work better, but this doesnt mean that we arent aiming for something similar. lets try to play nicely rather than shooting each other down all the time.
6. having read through the pamphlet in its first incarnation, i have to say its good so far, and contains useful information which can be used not only to target punks but other people too, so well-done Rich!
until this thread returns to its original purpose, that of creating and/or editing the text im not going to reply on it.
Jan 17 2007 11:16
#35
Quote:
1. could this try to remain a norwich anarchists organising thread, please? without all the excess aggression from external sources, (and internal sources).
Sorry.
Devrim
Jan 17 2007 11:22
#36
Alegria, if that above post was aimed at me in part, I apologise if you feel I've contributed to derailing the thread, I assumed that it was okay to join in discussions on NA threads, even if you're not part of organizing, and Rich didn't seem to have a problem, so again, apologies, but I thought it was quite an interesting discussion. Also, I can't see that anyones been slagging anyone off as individuals either, but I completely agree that it would be greta if people just supported each other rather than just sniping on the net, it goes on WAY too much and is very wearing!
Okay, I guess that was my cue to finally keep my mouth shut then, I'll fuck right off now 
Jan 17 2007 11:33
#37
I'm personally not bothered who contributes. I'm not sure I had any particular intention, other than to test the water, see what people thought. I prefer some feedback to no feedback, anytime. TBH I'm going to post what I've done on a brand spanking new thread!
Don't sweat the small stuff! Funny how people are more interested in this little thing, than they are in the End Fuel Poverty Campaign stuff? Funny old world! 
Jan 18 2007 11:37
#38
Jack wrote:
I can't believe I'm taking this side on this debate...I think it's perfectly fair enough.
NA have used the benefit gigs well to raise a fair bit of cash. Whatever my opinion on NA, this cash has then eb used for a variety of decent causes and donations.
If these gigs are doing well and making money then there's no need to stop them, or start organising gigs in a scene you don't know as well and won't make as much money in.
If you're doing these gigs with loads of punks at, you might as well hand out a few leaflets that might relate to the people who go to them. If they make one drunk punk act like a bit less of a dick (until they get drunk again and forget what they read), then that alone has been worthwhile. If it doesn't, rich has wasted a few hours and a few quid on a few leaflets. Big deal.
ad here's me agreeing with Jack.
jaysus
Guydebid, you're turning all contrary these days. Why can't someone produce anarchist propaganda targetted at a specific group of people?
Jan 18 2007 13:10
#39
jack white wrote:
Jack wrote:
I can't believe I'm taking this side on this debate...I think it's perfectly fair enough.
NA have used the benefit gigs well to raise a fair bit of cash. Whatever my opinion on NA, this cash has then eb used for a variety of decent causes and donations.
If these gigs are doing well and making money then there's no need to stop them, or start organising gigs in a scene you don't know as well and won't make as much money in.
If you're doing these gigs with loads of punks at, you might as well hand out a few leaflets that might relate to the people who go to them. If they make one drunk punk act like a bit less of a dick (until they get drunk again and forget what they read), then that alone has been worthwhile. If it doesn't, rich has wasted a few hours and a few quid on a few leaflets. Big deal.
ad here's me agreeing with Jack.
jaysus
Guydebid, you're turning all contrary these days. Why can't someone produce anarchist propaganda targetted at a specific group of people?
People can do whatever they like, I just think targetting anything at the punk scene is a terrible idea.
Jan 18 2007 17:15
#40
Quote:
I just think targetting anything at the punk scene is a terrible idea.
Sounds like you've bought into what (I imagine) punk says about it self. It can't really be the black-hole of history, more aimless and self-destructive than any other group. Its not utterly sui generis, I mean.
Jan 18 2007 17:40
#41
In Norwich, I'd say more than half of the people who are active in anarchist politics in any meaningful way are in some way part of the punk scene (generally the fringes), i.e. they go to or used to go to gigs, were in bands, DJ punk, like the music etc. I think you're being too dismissive of the punk scene there! I'm not saying they're the saviour of the anarchist movement - but there are a lot of decent people in the punk scene (like any other musical scene) and it's foolish to pass over opportunities to spread your ideas.
Apr 22 2007 10:41
#42
i'm sure i've actually read this...
was it at the bookfair? Has someone since posted a PDF?
Apr 22 2007 12:09
#43
I actually want a copy.
Apr 22 2007 20:14
#44
Tacks wrote:
i'm sure i've actually read this...was it at the bookfair? Has someone since posted a PDF?
A rough draft was posted on another thread. http://libcom.org/forums/norwich-anarchists/constructive-criticism-please-anarchism-for-drunk-punks
Apr 26 2007 16:17
#45
Hey everyone.
What a huge waste of time! Thanks Guy for making lots of people angry, probably yourself too, and wasting all of our time. It's taken me nearly half an hour to read this stupid dialogue, it's been gripping, but still stupid.
I think really you just wanted an arguement didn't you?...kinda clutching at straws towards the end there!probably best to go elsewhere for that......Your point about punk being a sub-culture is interesting...why do you think this is fixed?will it always be a sub-culture? I'm sure lots of things were once sub-cultures and aren't anymore (and visa versa)....if punk was a sub-culture which was clued up on anarchism then add that to the anarchist sub-culture and you have a larger anarchist movement.
This doesn't actually matter anyway because as you were told a number of times....this is not an attempt to recruit, neither is it a pamphlet made by punks. Who are punks? are you a punk? am I?....I'm not sure you really know, so just go away and argue somewhere else!
Apr 26 2007 16:57
#46
Umm, Choi do you realise that this thread is a few months old and most of the conflicts in the previous posts have now either been resolved or forgotten?
There ain't no punks in Norwich Anarchists BTW