Constructive Criticism Please! : Anarchism for Drunk Punks

I thought this might be relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0IZdP3x66Y

Nice one! Couple of things...

Maybe the first page that's a list of things that anarchism isn't should be more relevant to what punks think it is? Like animal trights, fair trade etc, I think that's more stuff that anarchists have arguements about, drunk punks probably think it's more just chaos than anything else. Thinks like "believing in disorganization", "advocascy of terrorism" etc might sound better if you shorten them to just disorganization and terrrorism (unless there's a reason not to). Maybe a bit more simple too..you're assuming they know already who Franko is etc, some of the people at the gigs are about 15, and some might just not know. And maybe a little bit less on Spain if poss, I think it might seem a bit irrelevent to a lot of people. Are there any example that people can think of that are more relevant? Maybe smaller cases of anarcht in action type stuff than the big one!
I really like that you mention racism, sexism, homophobia etc, maybe make a bit more of that if possible, so it makes it clear that macho bullshit that goes on in the punk movement is not only shit, it goes against everything they're scrawling all over themselves.

Good, sorry that sound's like a whole rewrite, I don't mean that at all, just a few things I noticed but it's equally fine as it is! Well done Jungle-boy!

Do go on.

Cheers for the link x357997!

>I think the collasping of issues around ecology to profit
>is too simplistic even for this pamplet IMHO.
Do you have any suggestions? The idea behind the whole "Implications" bit is to get through a lot of stuff in as condensed a way as possible. It looks like we might cut some of the Spain bit, so there might be space for a bit more on the ecology thing (though TBH, the priority in this thing is to get the basic ideas of class struggle anarchism across).

Great feedback Stinkerbell!

Will definitely shorten down that list and rearrange it to put chaos and stuff like that at the top. Though i have had punkers thinking that anarchism was about ethical consumerism!

Yeah that Franco bit should definitely change. A thing that I've come up against recently (from punks) is the classic "it sounds nice, but in practice it'll never work". That was also an issue for me when I first came into contact with anarchist ideas. But I can see where you're coming from in terms of relevance, I mean it was over 70 years ago... The trouble is that smaller examples I think personally are a bit unconvincing...

>makes it clear that macho bullshit that goes on in the punk
>movement is not only shit, it goes against everything
>they're scrawling all over themselves.
I might quote that somewhere sometime! I'll stick homophobia in the next draft.

>Good, sorry that sound's like a whole rewrite
I'm prepared to do a whole rewrite so I wouldn't worry about it!

>Baggin's has just come up with a good example of stuff
>organized by Anarchists! How about Righeous Promotions?
I should mention this in there somewhere, but TBH it's one of those little things, like i mentioned earlier (a few people organising a gig here or there doesn't really compare to a few million people organising the whole of society!). But yeah it would be nice to get a decent direct example of something organised on anarchist lines in the punk world!

Typographical point: don't use sans-serif for large blocks of text.

Maybe you should put 'not about getting wasted' at the top as a hook. Out of interest do you want to sell anarchism to them when they are "punks"? Cos if that is true, imho putting that at the top would kinda say "You are still a (drunk) punk tho".

Ffs, I know nothing about the punk scene, or what good propaganda is. Looking back - if you want to stear them away from "the left" I would suggest including something about that - without denying the holocaust! (Can't remember where I found somone accusing someone of being a "revisionist" and saying that we should not have fought in WWI. But it was slightly shocking). At the end of the day if there isn't some "psychological" need to differentaite from "the left" then we are doomed, imho.

yeah seems good, quick stylistic thing, you probly need to turn the words onto the next line rather than let them br-
eak like that. Otherwise it interr-
upts the flow for people reading

I'm going to assume that my politics are of a different strand than yours but I do know my drunk punks, so I'll try and keep this relevant.

The first page is a big turn off. You're telling punks what they're not allowed to do if they join your anarchy club. Big mistake. And I don't agree with it at all. Rioting, smashing stuff up, ending civilization and especially doing whatever you want COULD be parts of anarchy. It just depends on the situation. Definitively saying they aren't just comes across as moralising and your target audience will pick up on this and quite possibly read the rest of your pamphlet with contempt. If you are 100% set on including it I would at least stick it somewhere at the back.

You use way too many words such as workers, socialist, revolution. These might seem like unavoidable basic concepts that get used so much in places like libcom that you don't even notice them, but I guarantee that the punks will pick up on them and view you as a politician looking for converts. If you want to explain basic concepts you have to use everyday examples and then possibly theorise about what might happen if the ideas spread and the projects got bigger and bigger. Talking about Spain in 1936 doesn't cut the mustard here my friend. It's in black&white, hence it's ancient and irrelevant. I would suggest trying to find examples of present-day situations where people are self-organising, even if it is just small scale simple projects, the more local to your area the better.

Someone made a point on the other thread you had that punks are humans too - that they go to school, pay rent, work shit jobs and pay too much for consumer products. It's true, and relevant. How and why would an interest in anarchism make their life better. Now, not after your social revolution.

One section where punks differ from a lot of other social groups is the 'No Unemployment' line. THIS IS BAD!! Punks like being unemployed! It means they don't have to work shit jobs. At the moment in the UK I think its still pretty normal for punks to be on the dole which means they get paid money to do nothing. How will your anarchy club make that any better? A better line is no more bosses, or no more shit jobs.

"All non-anarchist political groupings are about putting themselves in charge"
So, anarchist groupings are about putting people in charge of their own lives. Again important point that might ring some bells.

Sorry if this is bit harsh, but i am trying to help. I totally understand the problems of trying to simplify seemingly complex social ideas. But if we can't explain basic anarchist theory then we're at nothing, so best of luck.

WE HAVE AN WINNAR!!!

Dunno if anyones said it, but how about mentioning the DIY punk music scene a bit? The rejection of major labels, I guess if you can't find a better example you could mention Crass records, but I'm sure there's a more recent/relevant example. Maybe mentioning anarcho-punk a bit too, but when it comes to lyrics to quote I reckon try and add some well known bands, like the Clash or Stiff Little Fingers, so that people'll definately recognize even if they're not that into punk.

Is the cover from Drunken Master? Smooth!

Great comments everyone, thank you! I'm going to sit on this for a bit and think about it. (I'm not aiming for it to be ready until the punk gig in March). I'm thinking about maybe doubling the length of this to include more punk imagery/song lyrics.

Cheers for the typography notes. I may make the change to serif - in serif world i normally go for garamond, but does anyone think of a more suitable font (and I'm not going to handwrite the cunt!) But maybe I should do it in zine format... Hmmm ponders...

>The first page is a big turn off. You're telling punks what
>they're not allowed to do if they join your anarchy club.
I think that the front page, dealing with what anarchism isn't is the most important page in the thing! That is probably 95% of the bullshit I hear is those things. The first five minutes (if not more) of just about every conversation I have with someone about anarchism is dealing with what they think it is. I think it's important to get rid of the misconceptions before trying to explain what it is. I'd rather say NO, first to it being say about rioting and demonstrations, because at heart that is not what anarchism is, what it stands for or anything. Sure in the process of building an anarchist movement, these things will be involved, but I'd rather that people understood the basic ideas of anarchism than held misconceptions about it.

> Definitively saying they aren't just comes across as
> moralising and your target audience will pick up on this
> and quite possibly read the rest of your pamphlet with
> contempt.
That's tricky. This thing is in some ways deliberately targetted at people that claim to be "anarchists". Though people round here seem generally interested, so I'd rather just say what it is and what it isn't and just be done with it.

>You use way too many words such as workers, socialist,
>revolution.
They may be drunk punks, but they ain't thick! Seriously though, in the next ed. I may put in some kind of glossary. I think I may increase the number of pages in this by an extra sheet of doublesided a4 (8 pages then).

>but I guarantee that the punks will pick up on them and
>view you as a politician looking for converts.
That's because I am!

>If you want to explain basic concepts you have to use
>everyday examples and then possibly theorise about what
>might happen if the ideas spread and the projects got
>bigger and bigger. Talking about Spain in 1936 doesn't cut
>the mustard here my friend.
Every day examples: like what exactly? Please give me some. I find that kind of thing unconvincing - but the fact that anarchists managed to run a city, a war effort, all the collectivisations, that to me is proof of something. I'm not interested in speculations, when there is an actual example to use. Yeah examples of present day self-organisation would be cool.

>How and why would an interest in anarchism make their life
>better. Now, not after your social revolution.
Well if we could sort out some proper anarchosyndicalist union, proper useful anarchist organising on the ground it would be nice. The trouble is we are such a minority, with so little resources.. sob sigh boo hoo. In the meantime we need to get some more people on board!

>One section where punks differ from a lot of other social
>groups is the 'No Unemployment' line. THIS IS BAD!! Punks
>like being unemployed! It means they don't have to work
>shit jobs. At the moment in the UK I think its still pretty
> normal for punks to be on the dole which means they get
>paid money to do nothing. How will your anarchy club make
>that any better? A better line is no more bosses, or no
>more shit jobs.
Only a handful of the punkers I know are unemployed. But yeah, I should probably favour something else in something aimed directly at punks.

>Sorry if this is bit harsh, but i am trying to help.
No worries - it's exactly what I wanted!

>And another thing, the language style is all wrong. Not
>nearly enough fucking swearing. Cops are pigs, bosses are
>wankers, politicians are parasites, don't be afraid to call
>them such, you'll get more punk points. Anything you can do
>to raise class consciousness is a good thing, so I reckon
>put a bit more explaining about how you get treated like
>shit as a worker/doley/renter/student and always will
>unless you become a cunt that bosses other people around.
Yeah this was the thing I was saying about at the start - do I make it offensive, or do I make it plain. I'm tempted to do two different ones. Punk As Fuck Edition, and one in more plain language (which could just be a general introduction not necessarily directly for punks).

>I've always found the best primers are ones that make me go
> 'Of course, I knew that, i just never thought how to put
>it like that.'
You can't tell anyone anything new, only make them aware of something they knew already. Some greek said that I think.

Cheers for the song ideas Stinker! I thought about doing songs in the previous one, but I thought they'd take up too much space - but I reckon it'd be worth expanding it a bit.

Got to go, but doing it as a zine seems vaguely interesting. Shit this was meant to be something I knocked off in a couple hours. Oh well!

I wasn't suggesting they were thick, I was suggesting that you're talking in a codified language used by politicos as short-hand, which is a huge turn-off to most people. Treating your audience like they're thick is about the worst thing you could do! There's a line between talking in everyday language and condescension that is the magic formula.

I figure the best example you could give people as for anarchism in action is the DIY music promotions you put on. Explain why you do it, perhaps because you want to come together with friends and allies to take control over a small part of your life instead of consuming pop culture. Explain how there's no profit motive and how this means there are no promoters treating the audience like consumers to be fleeced for all they're worth, no bouncers harassing people, no yuppies making the bar uncomfortable to be in, and no rock stars acting like wankers (hopefully ) Explain the concept of mutual aid and how it applies to Righteous Promotions, then expand it to explain how it works if people got together to stand up for their co-workers if the boss is being a dick-head, or how communities not paying extra taxes as a group is infinitely more powerful than atomized individuals.

I reckon if you're calling it Anarchism for Drunk Punks then you should make it Punk as Fuck. You'll need to make them laugh coz if you don't they'll assume anarchism is for humourless dryshites, and taking the piss out of yourself occasionally is probably a good tactic, because the punks will do it for you anyway!

I can understand your frustration when some bemohawked eejit who never helps out at gigs stumbles a DIY gig and tells you to fuck off, it's anarchy I can do what I want when you kindly request a few quid to cover costs from him, but personally I have always hated when people write 'what anarchism is and what it isn't' articles, especially the what it isn't part. Anarchy is a generally defined as a lack of any form of political authority. Further attempts to define it are personal interpretations and having someone decide definitively what it is or isn't grates on my nerves. But that's just me...

I hope to jaysus you're joking.

Song titles and lyric snippets are definitely good. If you can find the more relevant ones in bands like the Clash and SLF you're laughing because anarcho-punks still like to listen to them, especially their political songs, but the spikey crowd love them too.

Sorry, I feel like I'm totally thrashing on your effort and trying to get you to rewrite it more to my liking.

There's already one of these floating around..this ones being done as an additional version specifically cos there's a lot of benefit gigs being put on, and the punk gigs in particular seem to bring some odd ideas out of the woodwork...

Mith, I wouldn't worry about spending ages on this (unless you want to!), I think you can probably sex up the one you've done and it'll be fine.

And maybe without the girls in bikinis too.....

hmmm...unless maybe it's Tank Girl....

Anarchism that is worthy of the name is a social movement, that emerged (and emerges) in various forms but with the emphasis being on a socialist but libertarian society. The rest is window dressing, frankly.

Animal Rights and anarchism are very tenuously linked together, IMHO. There have been vegetarian types on the flakey fringes of the anarchist movement in the past, the weakness of the uk anarchist movement means that those fringes are the majority of the thing here. That doesn't mean I don't give a shit personally about animal rights, just that it's a separate issue. Feminism, antiracism, homophobia etc. have an integral role in anarchist politics because sexism and racism directly undermine the anarchist project. I can't see a load of rescued ducks doing fuck all to overthrow capitalism.

I have had people say "do I have to care about the animals to be an anarchist?" The answer would be no. If someone said, "do I have to see women, homosexuals and people of different races as equals to be an anarchist?" The answer would be yes.