Defend medical progress
May 8 2006 15:19
The second Pro-Test demo is to take place in Oxford on Saturday 3rd of June. Exact details of the march haven't yet been released but I'll post them when they are.
Basically we're demonstrating against the threats made by animal rights groups against both the workers involved in building and running the new research labs, and the entire University - all academic and non-academic staff and all students, the vast majority of whom will never have anything to do with the labs, and the workers of all companies and contractors associated with the University - and in support of the medical research that will take place in the new facility. Whilst animal research is far from perfect it remains one of the most valuable methods available to us at the moment and should not be held back by dangerous, graverobbing lunatics who'd prefer children to die of cancer than rats to die to further medical progress, and support violence towards people who are just doing their jobs, yet still claim to defend life.
In addition there is going to be a meeting at Oxford Town Hall on the 22nd for those who want to find out about animal research and what Pro-Test is all about. Anyone who wants to attend PM me and I'll give you the email address to RSVP to.
May 8 2006 15:38
#2
Aren't the people from living marxism running pro-test these days?
funny fanatic language in your post grace - if i would post anything like that about animal use, you would be all "look, a fanatic! A FANATIC!!!111!!111 ***foam in mouth***!!!1111!"
but i guess it doesn't go both ways...
May 8 2006 15:40
#3
He probably is a bit of a knob to be honest; he's a teenage boy. However, he's now handed over the organisation to a committee of students and staff within the University.
I'd personally draw a distinction between research and testing; as far as I'm aware the University doesn't carry out commercial testing and the labs will be used for research.
The fanatic language is semi-tongue in cheek, prefiguring the discussion that's likely to arise from my posting such a thread. Only semi, mind; I do still think they're lunatics.
May 8 2006 15:43
#4
Quote:
I'd personally draw a distinction between research and testing; as far as I'm aware the University doesn't carry out commercial testing and the labs will be used for research.
Whats 'research' in this sense?
I mean university's are nothing but corporate playgrounds anyway...
I'd go on an anti-AR nutter demo tho. I've been on a couple of AR demo's in London (back in the day) and i have to say the people there were far from savoury.
May 8 2006 15:45
#5
who are lunatics? Everyone who is against using animal model in research like me?
And what kind of naive attitude is this commercial testing vs research comment grace? You dont think there are no commercial interests involved in the research carried out at the facility? You dont think there are tests with commercially sensitive outcomes and thus declared secret? Hey you weren't born yesterday!
and this is not an anti-AR nutter demo - it is a demo for using animal models in research and against building pressure for a paradigm change in that field. This demo is as much anti-AR nutter as the pro-hunting demos were about "saving the countryside from post office closures".
May 8 2006 15:47
#6
JDMF wrote:
and this is not an anti-AR nutter demo
I didnt say it was...
May 8 2006 15:49
#7
rkn wrote:
JDMF wrote:
and this is not an anti-AR nutter demoI didnt say it was...
yeah but grace seems to believe so...
AGAINST GRAVEDIGGING!!!! USE MORE MONKEYS IN LABS!!11!1!!
May 8 2006 15:54
#8
I used to know this university student who got funding for a masters or something and he told me that his research involved scalping a rat every two days and brain damaging it to see what would happen. He said he wasn't actually trying to find out anything in particular, just curious. It wasn't Oxford, but I don't see why there would be much difference.
Seems a bit strange to throw your wholehearted support behind that sort of thing though I'm sure not everything that goes on there is that frivolous.
I agree with trying to distance anarchism from the crap politics that surrounds the AR movement but I don't think trying to present an image of hating animals is necessarily very attractive either, which i think happens a fair bit on libcom. I mean, I wouldn't defend these campaigns against students and workers' etc. for a minute but this Pro-Test group looks a bit fanatical as well to me....... though I have to admit I don't know a whole lot about it.
May 8 2006 15:55
#9
JDMF wrote:
Aren't the people from living marxism running pro-test these days?
Come on mate, you're better than that.
May 8 2006 16:02
#10
The new labs will continue whatever research the University is doing, which currently includes new treatments for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease, heart disease and cancer, and the University is at the forefront of the current research into vaccines for HIV. Obviously I know there are commercial interest but my point was that they are developing new treatments rather than being paid to test existing drugs.
The University's current research also includes developing non-animal techniques like computer modelling and tissue and cell cultures, and this would also be continued in the new labs.
For most people within the uni it's just as much an anti-AR nutter demo as a pro-research demo, if not more so; nobody here likes their intimidation against workers, staff and students.
Also, it's not a primate lab so monkeys aren't really that relevant.
May 8 2006 16:07
#11
hmmm well bascially the Animal rights fucks threatened workers and students and they are organising a demostration against it.
I don't see much difference between this and the walks out civil servants did over threats from loyalist and republicans.
The issue isn't particularly about animal rights, it's about standing up to authoritarian dickheads who threaten workers in order to try and attain their ill thought out goals.
I mean aren't benefit shop workers as much part of an exploitative system as those who carry out research on animals? Workers in weapon factories? Nuclear Power plant workers?
I could go on.
Basically there needs to be a debate about animal research but it must be done on the basis of excluding fuckwit animal fundamentalists.
Also any arsehole who gets so fucking worked up over lab rats compared to other shit going on in their lives should be used for human testing.
May 8 2006 16:31
#12
revol68 wrote:
I mean aren't benefit shop workers as much part of an exploitative system as those who carry out research on animals? Workers in weapon factories?
Sure but if workers in weapons factories were being victimised it would be a bit strange to set up a group called 'Pro-Arms Trade' to counter it. Not saying that this is exactly the same thing as what's going on here but it's clearly more than just a solidarity with workers' & students demo.
May 8 2006 16:36
#13
yeah of course, but I think the for most people on the march they are just fucked off with gobshites screaming hysterical nonsense and the lunatic fringe who seem to spend most of their time thinking up bigger and brighter ways to discredit themselves and also how to get 16 year old girls who like puppies and ponies to fuck them.
But yeah, this Pro test group don't seem to great, but it;s about time we saw some counter balance to the animal rights fundies.
May 8 2006 16:44
#14
the false paradigm of animal testing holds back research; it doesn't aid it. I love the "finding cure for cancer" bullshit. Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air. THATs the cure for cancer. Not some new drug. Fuck your instrumental rationality. Fuck you're reification of living SUFFERING beings, and fuck your counter-revolutionary protest.
Human freedom, animal rights, one struggle, one fight.
May 8 2006 16:47
#15
revolutionrugger wrote:
Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air.
Gotta agree with that.
But keep it friendly everybody, we all know where AR threads go.
May 8 2006 17:01
#16
revolutionrugger wrote:
I love the "finding cure for cancer" bullshit. Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air. THATs the cure for cancer.
I agree with that point; prevention is definitely better than cure and a lot of cases of cancer probably could have been prevented, but what about people who do eat right, don't smoke, take care of themselves and still get cancer? What would you do if you got cancer (or any other illness whose treatments have been developed using animal research)? Refuse treatment?
May 8 2006 17:02
#17
revolutionrugger wrote:
the false paradigm of animal testing holds back research; it doesn't aid it. I love the "finding cure for cancer" bullshit. Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air. THATs the cure for cancer. Not some new drug. Fuck your instrumental rationality. Fuck you're reification of living SUFFERING beings, and fuck your counter-revolutionary protest.Human freedom, animal rights, one struggle, one fight.
what are you some sort of fucking poof? 
seriously though, stop talking fucking shite!
Are you seriously going to deny that animal research has not helped the understanding of cancer and hence the huge increase in survival rates. This "naturalist" bullshit about cancer being because of modern life is wank of the highest order, cancer is exasperated by many our lifestyle but it has been with us since we ran out of fucking eden.
Of course the fact we are living longer means that the onset of cancer is much more likely, i mean we could reduce cancer rates by 10 fold if we just reverted to some "naturalist" state where your lucky to live to 40.
If a relative of yours had cancer would you be so fucking dismissive of the work going into cancer research, would you sit back and tell someone there was no point supporting oppressive instrumental reason by going for chemo therapy or surgery?
fucking arsehole!
May 8 2006 17:06
#18
my godmother has cancer right now. she just got her mysectomy. NO ANIMAL TESTING.
May 8 2006 17:09
#19
Revol - just make your point and stop winding people up with crap tagged on the end.
May 8 2006 17:09
#20
revolutionrugger wrote:
my godmother has cancer right now. she just got her mysectomy. NO ANIMAL TESTING.
ahh well atleast that was a fucking decent response 
No animal testing ever?
Do you think animal testing can help in research ever?
Fucking animal rightists, evolution would have been better giving them horns than a fucking brain.
May 8 2006 17:09
#21
ironic, you won't believe me, side note: She's was a vivesector back in the day, but found it to be unethical and became a biology teacher instead.
May 8 2006 17:11
#22
rkn wrote:
Revol - just make your point and stop winding people up with crap tagged on the end.
no fucking offence rkn (and by that i blatantly mean i don't give a fuck if your offended) but this prat is gobbing off reactionary fucking nonsense, perhaps you should be more worried about the idiocy of some peoples ideas than sniping at me for saying what 99% of the population thinks.
May 8 2006 17:13
#23
revol - i dont care what he's saying - just make your point without flaming in a non-flaming forum. As you do, but without the crap on the end. Last warning, do it again and i'll just change your permissions.
May 8 2006 17:17
#24
I think some things don't deserve to be engaged with respectfully, it bestows on them a level of legitimacy totally unwarranted.
Surely posting flame bait like that sort of shit should be a disciplinary offence.
My post might have had an insult but it had more susbtance than his "fuck instrumental reason" posturing.
To think I thought all the animal rightists, hippies and primmos had fucked off.
May 8 2006 17:28
#25
I'm sure some of the people involved in pro-test are nobs. Loads of people are nobs. I support animal testing, but wouldn't go on a demo in support of it under capitalism, although taking part in a demo opposing threats to workers + students at the uni - as these fucks have - is totally fair enough.
May 8 2006 17:30
#26
John. wrote:
I'm sure some of the people involved in pro-test are nobs. Loads of people are nobs. I support animal testing, but wouldn't go on a demo in support of it under capitalism, although taking part in a demo opposing threats to workers + students at the uni - as these fucks have - is totally fair enough.
Exactly!
May 8 2006 18:03
#27
Sorry revolutionrugger I like you, but that's not very helpful contribution.
revolutionrugger wrote:
the false paradigm of animal testing holds back research; it doesn't aid it.
Sorry, this is just wrong. Animal testing is completely necessary unless you want to test on humans first. Computer modelling is not an adequate substitute yet.
Quote:
I love the "finding cure for cancer" bullshit. Here's a clue, don't smoke, get the chemicals out of our food, eat right, and stop polluting the air. THATs the cure for cancer. Not some new drug.
That's also not a very good argument. Who should stop polluting the air? Or are you saying that no effort should be made to cure disease until we live in communism? What about the 40million people with HIV or AIDS?
Quote:
Fuck your instrumental rationality.
You're arguing against rationality? In that case I don't see us getting anywhere.
Quote:
Fuck you're reification of living SUFFERING beings
What does this mean?
Quote:
and fuck your counter-revolutionary protest.
It's counter-revolutionary?
In that case, things it's against must be revolutionary then. So please explain the revolutionary nature of the following:
1. Opposing animal testing
2. Threatening students who happen to go to the university
3. Threatening workers who happen to work there
Quote:
Human freedom, animal rights, one struggle, one fight.
Well, that's obviously just not accurate. They're both entirely different. We could live in a capitalist vegan society with medicines not tested on animals. So are you actually trying to make a point or just spewing rhetoric?
May 8 2006 18:03
#28
Hi
Before we discuss animal rights, new comrades should bring themselves up to speed. In fact, it is somewhat dishonest of JDMF to restart this circle without reference. Maybe it was done for the sake of entertainment, which is a good enough reason to see something suffer as far as I’m concerned…
http://www.libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=94208#94208
Love
LR
May 8 2006 18:21
#29
I would have thought if a libertarian communist wanted to support these workers' and students then they would set up a group to support workers and students, not go on demos in support of an entire capitalist industry.
Some of the people who like to say 'it's class' all the time (correctly, I might add) seem to have forgotten this in their attempt to appear 'less lifestylist than thou' IMO. Are the ALF really one of the major threats to the British working class? I suggest that if a similar protest was organised on another issue you'd all be denouncing it as liberal wank.
May 8 2006 18:26
#30
Hi
magnifico wrote:
Some of the people who like to say 'it's class' all the time (correctly, I might add) seem to have forgotten this in their attempt to appear 'less lifestylist than thou' IMO. Are the ALF really one of the major threats to the British working class? I suggest that if a similar protest was organised on another issue you'd all be denouncing it as liberal wank.
Are libertarian communist’s not allowed to have hobbies now? Harsh but fair I suppose.
Love
LR
Hmm i saw the pro-test guy on richard and judy ages ago. He seemed like a bit of a knob.
I wouldnt say I actively support medical testing within our society because it is for profit, not for human life, but i havent anymore against it than other capitalist enterprises.
This kinda stuff is dire though:
*wonders how long this thread will last*