Education System or Indoctrination System?

*sighs*

The public school system in the US definitely has an aspect of indoctrination to it, mostly in the subjects of History and Civics. Post-secondary education is somewhat different, you can actually pursue an education that interests you, but then again, I dropped out in my first quarter. The Pledge of Allegiance is teaching children to embrace both God and the US in a nationalistic fashion, from a very early age.

By 16 years, you mean 13, right? Have you read Marx yet? I'm trying to indoctrinate you here, but you're being very difficult.

Lol, good, very good. Everything is going according to plan. Start on 'The German Ideology' next.

In the UK, like the US, it contains a bit of both genuine education and blatant indoctrination.

Indoctrination aside for a moment, I think some elements of the education system would be quite similar in a post-revolutionary world. There is undoubtedly a need to pass on knowledge and skills from one generation to the next and I think it would work best if there was some form of education system ATR, but it would look very different.

It is very easy to see (and I'm sure I've read a lot here) about what is wrong with the present education system from the point of view of what's best for children's development and people who want to help children learn.

I don't think anyone on here would question whether the current system relies too heavily on obedience to authority and unquestioning learning of facts and silly rituals. Partly because that's what capital demands of workers, and what the state demands of citizens, but also because education is massively under-valued. I think 30 kids to a class is ridiculous- added to the top-down way education is managed and its easy to see why in the present system even the best teachers would struggle to find time to encourage free thinking and critical reflection

(am I right in thinking indoctrination is essentially learning/ being taught without being given the option to question and critically reflect?)

You'd be surprised.

If you answer the question "Sally goes into a shop and buys three apples. She receives 44 pence change from a pound coin. What was the value of each apple?" with the answer "The value of each apple is equal to the average socially necessary labour time required to produce it" then you won't get any marks. It's bourgeois indoctrination I tell you!

Let's just say school maths is stupidly (over-)simplified to fit the social role of math lessons: doing things you don't actually understand, but doing them anyway just so you can count to 10. As in, able to apply it to limited situations (namely math problems, not even real world stuff) but knowing fuck all about why it works that way. In that context, speaking of teaching math to develop logical thinking and so on is hilarious.

Of course it would be a lot to ask to teach first graders in a scientifically correct manner why 2 +2 is not 5, but you get the idea. And yes, some stuff taught in schools is straight-up incorrect, if you want to take it from that angle.

I doubt it's done that way for deliberate indoctrination purposes though.

Mostly indoctrination and social control. Just look at the history books in primary and secondary schools in England. "History" is mostly about the Monarchy, the fantastical development of the capitalist mode of production and distribution of commodities (industrial revolution) and the glorious spread of Empire. If there is any mention of the "decent deserving" working class (loyal to king and country) it's linked to the wonderful development of modern representative parliamentary democracy (charter movement) and trade unions. Occasionally there's a brief look into the conditions of the undeserving working poor through Charles Dickens novels and the exile of undesirables who disturb the kings peace to Australia (including rabble rousers).

Absolutely nothing about the working class as an independent force in society capable of shaping its own direction. BTW they'll give you just enough technical education to keep the profits up. If the workers get too uppity they'll happily shut down whole industrial sectors and deskill the work force (story of deindustrialisation in Thatcher's Britain which something British ruling class now regrets). If they have to educate you they'll insist on your loyalty. Thinking of the US National Defense Education Act:

The bourgeois arent fucking dumb...why politically educate the only class capable of sending you to the grave?

How are scientifc facts produced? Are scientists and mathmeticians divorced from the society (capitalism) that pays them to think? Have a look at this.

look - all interactions reinforce the present system to greater or lesser extent. even us fine anti-capitalists are neck deep in the shit. Christ Hirro - gave the honest worker a break here mate. Teachers, lecturers, educationalists - they aren't in my experience conspiracists plotting to corrupt young minds with the poison that be capitalism.

Jailers of the mind, telly!

Maths is being taught as a body of facts - this is a travesty, as is science being taught from books without practical scientific investigation.

I believe we are being more disempowered by the dumbing down of mathematics, than we are by the loaded presentation of history or 'citizenship'. Maths is a developing body of theory that gives us means to create technological civilization. It is full of logical contradictions and its practice requires evaluation of the nature of proof. It is also an art. People are being taught dangerous lies in an effort to over-simplify it.

Maths is powerful - for example, from wikipedia: "In 1976, G. Miller showed that the generalized Riemann hypothesis implies that one can test if a number is prime in polynomial times. In 2002, Manindra Agrawal, Neeraj Kayal and Nitin Saxena proved this result unconditionally using the AKS primality test." This would render financial encryption systems worthless.

Of course not. I don't know much of the public education system in the US, other than having experienced it, but I'm pretty sure teachers have very little role in mandating the curriculum. So while it may not be the teachers' intentions to indoctrinate youth, it's mostly just the state's.

You should listen to Crass if you want to feel violated.

ideological interpolation is unavoidable in any society . Though obviously school plays a major formative role in this (via both content and form). You could call it 'indoctrination', though i kind of dislike that term because its mostly used by liberals, to draw a false distinction between non-liberal 'indoctrinated' ideology and liberal thought which they think is some kind of authentic non-ideology lool.

There is indoctrination in schools of an absolute kind, whether perpetrated intentionally or not. It takes the form of not giving scope to question the methodology of a subject within the curriculum, but taking the authorised exam-tested version of it as a given.

Read my blog, I cover stuff like this from first hand, up to date experience. This thread has given me the kick up the ass to write a new post.

I don't know much about the modern school system and its history. Doesn't it have a lot to do with the need both to have a place for kids to go as child labor laws were passed and the development of capitalism's requirement for workers to have a certain amount of education?

http://libcom.org/blog/education-nature-success-01012012