Free stickers!
Sep 12 2007 17:13
Stickers and leaflet publicising website and reading group :
leaflet text here : www.theoryandpractice.org.uk
If anyone would like a pile to distribute PM me.
thanks!
Sep 13 2007 20:13
#2
Yep, I ripped the protection racket one out of situationists and the occupations movement.
Sep 13 2007 21:57
#3
www.theoryandpractice.org.uk wrote:
The old workers movement was defeated by Stalinist “Communism” in the east
I never thought of it that way but I guess that's a good way to frame it.
Sep 15 2007 08:54
#4
worst...slogans...ever
Sep 15 2007 08:55
#5
and the comic is absolutely terrible...get the fuck out of the 19th century, please.
Sep 15 2007 09:11
#6
Antieverything wrote:
and the comic is absolutely terrible...get the fuck out of the 19th century, please.
yeah i forgot we don't live in a world that is defined by commodity production, wage labour, and alienation, I definately think Marx wa sproved wrong about the bourgeois necessariyl spreading internationally and constantly revolutionising social relations.
why do retarded cunts like you always feel the need to make retarded fucking comments like that? You sound like those fucking retard soundbites from Tony Blair 'times have changed', 'the old ideologies of class are no longer relevant' blah blah.
Sep 15 2007 09:46
#7
Yeah, but he's right about the slogans to be fair. I mean, "Towards generalised self-management" 
Sep 15 2007 10:03
#8
I agree "Towards generalised self-management" isn't the catchiest slogan ever!
With reguards to the others I don't think so... Much more solid than those retarded class-war slogans I think.
Also, just to say something is terrible isn't a valid critism, you have to say why!
Sep 15 2007 10:15
#9
i like it all, the site is good as well.
Sep 15 2007 11:06
#10
I think it depends on who you are trying to reach. If you're after people who will recognise the ideas already that's fine, but they'd mean nothing to most people seeing them.
Sep 15 2007 11:23
#11
darren poynton wrote:
I agree "Towards generalised self-management" isn't the catchiest slogan ever!With reguards to the others I don't think so... Much more solid than those retarded class-war slogans I think.
Yes, but "better than Class War" isn't exactly a great achievement, politically speaking.
Quote:
Also, just to say something is terrible isn't a valid critism, you have to say why!
Because most people seeing those stickers would probably piss themselves laughing and/or not have a clue what the fuck you're getting at. They're completely pointless.
Sep 15 2007 12:05
#12
I don't think these stickers say anything that is beyond the comprehension of anyone who has spent time thinking about the world in which we live. If you presume the average "man / woman on the street" is un-intellegent or uncapable of understanding revolutionary theses you are only playing towards a vanguardist position.
"Abolish wage labour" may seem an outlandish statement at first, but it is the aim of our project. If it is not what are you aiming for?
To use an overused quote : "These ideas are in everyone's head"
Sep 15 2007 12:47
#13
darren poynton wrote:
I don't think these stickers say anything that is beyond the comprehension of anyone who has spent time thinking about the world in which we live. If you presume the average "man / woman on the street" is un-intellegent or uncapable of understanding revolutionary theses you are only playing towards a vanguardist position.
It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of people not being interested in daft, jargon-packed slogans that mean fuck all to them. What does "generalised self management" mean? If you have to explain a slogan (and with a fair few of those you would) it's utterly fucking worthless.
They also just look fucking stupid and are really poorly designed.
Sep 15 2007 14:43
#14
"Generalised self management" means sef-management applied to all levels of society, as opposed to workers control of the enterprises. Unfortunately not very catchy but avoids connatations associated with the words "anarchy" or "communism".
"Capitalism", "Alienation" and "Commodity" are not jargon words. Indeed, the word "jargon" is often used by people to describe the language of those they are hostile to; whilst presuming there own language is instantly and universally understandable.
Also if someone reads a slogan whose meaning is not immediately apparent, who's to say that won't spark an interest?
The design is simple on purpose, going for a real "DIY" look....
Would like to get some properly designed though.
Sep 15 2007 15:28
#15
the leaflet is good andi really like the website, however the stickers as other posters have commented leave a lot to be desired
i'd put some thought into a little redesign because, not wishing to be rude here, i think it'd be a bit of a waste of your money to print them
The leaflet works because the imagery grabs attention before you read the text, the single slogan doen't have the same effect unless the slogan s a lot more subtle, otherwise it just looks liek yoru ramming something down peoples throats.
Not to mention that the politics and phrasing of some of those slogans are poor. For example 'don't say society, say protection racket'', to most people just sounds like a comment made by margeret thatcher. 'we don't want full emplyment, we want full lives''' sounds absurd to most people, and 'against alienation'' doesn't really work either. I'd say if your going to make stickers go for images and slogans combined aswell.
Sep 15 2007 17:42
#16
Thanks for the comments
I am just printing the stickers on demand at the minute - not spending money on them - but yes, would like to have some with images...
Don't think Thatcher ever quoted the Situationists though! 
Going to have a play on photoshop when I get the time!
Sep 15 2007 17:42
#17
I like some of these - particularly "only yourself can be your liberator" and "you'll never get back the time you sell". I would echo others' criticisms, however.
it isn't a matter of intelligence or complexity of ideas, it's the way they're presented. "abolish commodity-capitalist society", for example - it ain't that people don't get the concept, but they're not terms that are immediately obvious. even more so for "towards generalised self-management."
I love the design of the comic, tho again, the text is quite jargon-heavy.
Sep 15 2007 22:03
#18
Again, I think to self-consciously avoid using long words, abstract concepts etc is a tactical mistake - what we are seeking to do is undermine the passive social relations of spectacular society, not play up to them
Here is a quote from http://libcom.org/library/reply-to-animal-aufheben that I hope illustrates my point (the whole series of articles is well worth a read)
Quote:
Of course we should try to express ourselves as clearly as possible. But there is a contradiction that has to be dealt with - much of what is known as 'common sense' is the medium or currency for the circulation and expression of the taken-for-granted dominant values of this society. To express the subversive thru language it is sometimes necessary to use words that have retained a clearer meaning thru less use. Everyday language is a terrain largely occupied by the enemy: we tend to speak the language of our masters. (A beautiful example of a counter-tendency to this occurred in the 1992 LA Riot when the rioters coined the phrase 'image looters' to describe the media: a neat reversal of perspective.)In a world where appearances and the truth of things almost never coincide, theory is necessary to penetrate the lies. This society encourages a fragmented consciousness that craves only immediacy in its consumption (e.g. tabloidism). But a partially understood text that resists complete immediate understanding may not be just unnecessarily dense and wordy. It may be that it has a depth, subtlety and value worth pursuing. And it may grasp and reflect more accurately the real complexities of class society. "I assume of course they will be readers who want to learn something new, who will be prepared to think while they are reading." - Marx on Capital.
Sep 16 2007 14:34
#19
darren poynton wrote:
"Generalised self management" means sef-management applied to all levels of society, as opposed to workers control of the enterprises. Unfortunately not very catchy but avoids connatations associated with the words "anarchy" or "communism".
It was a rhetorical question, you patronising numpty.
Quote:
"Capitalism", "Alienation" and "Commodity" are not jargon words. Indeed, the word "jargon" is often used by people to describe the language of those they are hostile to; whilst presuming there own language is instantly and universally understandable.
But you are using jargon in those stickers, you're using language and terms that most people are completely unfamiliar with. Take "commodity" for instance, most people don't view commodities in terms of commodity fetishism, surplus value and all that jazz, which has nothing to do with intelligence, it's just that they haven't got the interest necessary to waste their time reading this shit.
Quote:
The design is simple on purpose, going for a real "DIY" look....
There's a difference between "simple" and crap. Those stickers are boring as fuck.
Sep 16 2007 14:35
#20
And by the way, spouting a load of barely coherent sub-situ bollocks doesn't make you clever.
Sep 16 2007 18:56
#21
I don't see how reading theory is a waste of time.....
Personal insults have no place in reasonable discussion.
Constructive critism is useful, but being as you don't have any I have nothing more to say.
Sep 16 2007 19:38
#22
darren poynton wrote:
Again, I think to self-consciously avoid using long words, abstract concepts etc is a tactical mistake - what we are seeking to do is undermine the passive social relations of spectacular society, not play up to them
I don't think we should avoid it, but if writing something very short (and two words that someone's going to pass in the street is about as short as it gets), then "you never get back the time you sell" says a lot more than "towards generalised self-management". Regardless of jargon, I can imagine the first sticking with me for a while, "towards generalised self-management" leaves me pretty cold, and out of context looks like it could be talking about management classes.
I'm no fan of stickers generally though.
The poster is much better than the stickers though, and I've said it before but your site is good, looking forward to watching that film.
Sep 16 2007 19:42
#23
darren poynton wrote:
I don't see how reading theory is a waste of time.....
I think his point is that during a point of low class struggle, only a very small minority of people are ever going to be interested in reading revolutionary theory. That's stating the obvious really. It's not a waste of time, but it's quite possible to go on strike or mount full scale insurrections without having read any theory, or to read theory and have done neither of those things. The intersection of the two is usually at the high points of class struggle, which are generally few and far between, and although I think there's plenty of people who'd be sympathetic to our ideas but simply have never been exposed to them, a lot won't be interested.
Sep 16 2007 19:52
#24
madashell wrote:
And by the way, spouting a load of barely coherent sub-situ bollocks doesn't make you clever.
The problem isn't that it doesnt make you look clever - the problem is the false dichotomy between class war's meaningless anarchist stickers and these meaningless anarchist stickers. A clear and intelligent message put forward in an appealing way would be better than this 'generalised self management' or 'bastards!' lark.
Sep 16 2007 19:59
#25
guydebordisdead wrote:
madashell wrote:
And by the way, spouting a load of barely coherent sub-situ bollocks doesn't make you clever.The problem isn't that it doesnt make you look clever - the problem is the false dichotomy between class war's meaningless anarchist stickers and these meaningless anarchist stickers. A clear and intelligent message put forward in an appealing way would be better than this 'generalised self management' or 'bastards!' lark.
shhh you, your myspazz page is covered in Debordian ballacks! Or as Debord would have probably put it, not the posing of a loser but the losing of a poser.
Sep 16 2007 20:42
#26
Ah, but my mypsace page is private and the aesthetic of arty marxism is obviously ironic, we all know about your page and the Wham pictures.
Sep 16 2007 21:22
#27
I would have a hard time putting up stickers that said "We don't want full employment, we want full lives" around town, especially since one of the big complaints I and others have had recently is that lovely tendency of certain workplaces to schedule their workers at 38 hours a week, so as to avoid that costly health insurance.
Sep 17 2007 08:02
#28
I would like to apologize, by the way, for failing to present any constructive criticism.
'You never get back the time you sell' is salvageable.
As someone else has already pointed out, 'commodity' is a meaningless vocabulary word for people who aren't anarcho/commie nerds (like anime nerds only they read obscure 19th century socialist texts, let's not lie to ourselves).
The thing about situationist rhetoric (if it is at all salvageable, which is debatable) is that it was used in the context of a high point in struggle and in a highly class-conscious society. I'm an American...we have no use for that stuff.
We've all read the same books...I'm not saying your class analysis is wrong or right. The fact is, it simply isn't what needs to be said in the here and now...unfortunately we Americans live in a society where 'slogans' such as "organizing a union might help you get health insurance" or "rich people never die in war" are absolutely radical. They may not state truths or utilize concepts that we can masturbate to...but that isn't the point, is it?
Sep 17 2007 08:08
#29
hey, i read obscure 20th century socialist texts! 
Sep 17 2007 08:40
#30
Thanks again for more comments, it is good to get feedback on stuff even if it isn't all positive.
I agree with catch's statement. But perhaps a useful task we could be doing is trying to re-introduce certain words / concepts into the general everday language?
I am going to give the stickers a re-working at some point and drop the self management one. I'm going to put photo's behind the slogans to help illustrate the points.
"rich people never die in war" isn't a true or radical statement - how about "Capitalism profits from war"?
Right, I'm off now to read some obscure 21st century socialist texts!
"you never get back the time you sell"
I like that one.
The one about society being a protection racket is an old situationist one isnt it?
As for the comic strip i love the style, theres a really good one about "expressing discontent through the appropriate union channels" in one of the collections of situationist writings, and i think theyre good to stick around, but it could be a little less dry/wordy. Plus more fight scenes!