HOPI and anti-war organisation

Not one of the delegates to the HOPI meetings so i am just going on the reports that i have seen.

HOPI in Ireland is just getting started and seems unsure what it wants to do. So far it has conducted a speaking tour around Ireland raising the issue and trying to build support for a anti war movement that is opposed to the imans and is also opposed to US imperialism.
It remains to be seen weather HOPI will become a mass campagin in its own right, link up with the awi or become a sort of faction in the main anti war movement. In case you don't know Shannon airport is used as refueling base for the US military and stopping the US military using shannon has always been one of the main demands of anti war movements in Ireland.

The advantages of being involved with it are

- A secular and anti imperialist anti war organisation
- A anti war movement organisation that has a healthy mix of trade unionists and direct actionists.
- A democratic organisation.
- An organisation that we can engage with and help shape the politics of.
- Build links with left Wing groups in Iran.

It remains to been seen how HOPI develops in Ireland. It is still possible that the US will invade Iran in the next few years. It makes sense to us to help set up a framework in which we can operate when that war happens now rather than waiting for the war to break out and be forced with either getting involved in a braoder organisation that is undemocratic and possible soft on the imans or forming a miniscule anarchist breakaway.

From my point of view it makes perfect sense to join and see how things develop. If things don't work out then we leave the organisation. Why, what do you see the problem with this being?

Can you name a pro-imperialist anti-war organisation? Otherwise this is "not the StWC".

There is no anti-war 'movement' in case you hadn't noticed. So this essentially means it has two groups that you think you can straddle between.

= not the StWC.

= not the StWC.

Which ones?

1. http://www.hopoi.org/supporters.html

Actually that'll do for a start.

So the HOPI in Ireland isn't the same as the HOPI in the UK, even though guydebordisdead referred to them as the same organisation? Or are you talking about something else?

I didn't ask you for an anti-war individual, I asked for an organisation.

That's exactly what I meant then.

What is this movement you speak of?

No it worked perfectly well. At best it shows that when guydebordisdead means "practical" he actually means pragmatic political campaigning.

Catch, you didn;t actually say anything their either.

To recap...
i listed a number of reasons we were in HOPI. The primary one being that we wanted a democratic, anti war group that didn't support the imans, was open to direct action, was open to working with the unions etc. in Ireland HOPI holds out that possibility or at least can aid in its creation.
I am still unsure what your real problem with this is?

You are completely right in saying that their is no mass anti war movement at the moment. This is clearly true. However, as i talked about above it is possible that the US will attack Iran in which case a mass anti war movement is likely to develop. This anti war movement can take a number of organisational forms. Traditional an un democratic SWP front seizes control and anarchists and the rest of the left moan to themselves. We are trying to create a democratic structure that can be used in a future anti war movement.

Apart from that your points really seem to be grasping at straws and petty attacks.

Well we are talking about the Irish context. I am wondering why you are on about STWC.

Maybe i am missing the political signifance of this but it seems to be having a go at sloppy wording. That said their are plenty of anti war groups that are against a particular war that do come out opposing imperialist wars in general. This does not mean they are pro - imperialist as you seem to be suggesting. My main point with this one anyway was the secular part, shorthand for being opposed to the Islamic theocracy.

Do you see them as being mutually exclusive or whats your point here.

I reckon this one is like Leftist. It has a particular meaning to the libcom crew. Does it mean thinking strageticially, trying to actually have an impact in the real world and having a plan that bridges the gap between six months down the line and the glorious day of revolution.

As catch said it'd be interesting to hear which ones? Not that you need to be in a fucking stalinist run front group to build links with groups in Iran. Have you provided any support for the striking bus workers?

Yeah, name some names of people in Iran! It's only the fucking Internet!

OK I've got a bit more time now.

"working with the unions". What does this actually mean? The 'call a general strike' stuff bandied about in 2003 by Workers Power etc. was a pile of shite, there's no way any trade union is going to call a strike against the war, they're doing their best to avoid calling strikes against pay/pension cuts and flexibilisation. So the best you'll get is some branch resolutions (probably supporting yet more HOPI statements) by leftie trade unionists. In other words the fact that there's trade unions involved means absolutely nothing, although it's consistent with your general approach to them and I see your mate Des Derwin is involved.

Well we agree on something.

Did you miss the bit where it's a CPGB front? Does that not bother you at all? Since the CPGB's only purpose appears to be point scoring against the SWP, someone cynical might even question their motives for setting up HOPI in the first place.

I don't think it matters what it's called, it's substantively the same group. guydebordisdead brought up your involvement on a thread about the SWP and HOPI so it's understandable to continue the comparison here.

So "not the IAWM" then.

I see it as a continuation of the WSM's obsession with orientation towards "the left".

Ahh, back to "unpractical[sic]" again. Joining stalinist front groups and calling for nationalisation of natural resources.

If they stopped with the supporting-whatever-dictator-speaks-against-the-US shit we might find ourselves in coalitions that they happen to be in. The HOPOI statement seems solidly internationalist. I'm open to the idea that this coalition is a "front" but nobody has demonstrated this to me (and I even made a new topic 6 or so months ago, asking if it were their front, and nobody had a solid answer).

I'm across an ocean, and I don't know a lot of the groups and individuals on that list, so if someone were to break it down for me and explain what the problem actually is I would really appreciate it.

Thanks.

Dust was talking about left wing groups in Iran, and I can name several without having to consult 'the fucking Internet'.

Did you miss the bit where it's a different country? CPGB have one member in Ireland. The English organisation has no say in the decisions etc of the Irish one. How is it a front in Ireland?

In relation to the striking bus workers etc a branch motion passed has little impact on the Iranian regime but it may give the strikers a bit of support. No harm in it anyway. Has also the possibility of organising funding through the union or a least getting a social or whatever organised to raise money.

In relation to the anti war aprt itself. Workers in Shannon airport, suppliers etc would feel more comfortamble going on strike or refusing to transport or aid the US military in Ireland if the have the full backing of their union.

yeah i agree. They are very similar. It was just a minor point that it doesn't help your authorative pronouncements on the situation in Ireland when you don't know the name of what was the largest anti war group. It might just have been a slip either.

i am not sure what you mean here by repeating this all the time. Is it a short hand for an identical lefty group to be set up with a different range of acronoms behind it without any differing political content?
if that is what you mean by it you would be wrong. The IAWM here is ridiclously soft on Islamic Resistance and often falls in the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" style of politics. Clearly HOPI doesn't. If you check Indymedia Ireland at the moement there are about 5 or 6 threads in the last two weeks where HOPI members are arguing against those presenting the dicatomy of the imans or Bush.

Sorry, what? The idea that a anti war group/movement/whatever can be active on a union front and also enage in direct action is orientating towards the Left.

It's not a bunch of masked up kids attacking a fence while tankies write letters about it to their union leader.

The last time around there was a mas anti war movement in ireland. unfortunately the IAWM leadership stifled discussion of direct action, behaved undemocratically and hamstrung the movement. We are attempting to prevent this happening again.

.Catch your last post creates the impression that the british HOPI and the Irish HOPI are the same organisation. As you know thery aren't

double post

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/673/hopi.htm

Are you claiming they're not the same organisation but just happen to have the same name? And if so why all those Irish groups and (two) trade unionists on their list of supporters?

http://libcom.org/forums/news/u-k-stop-war-coalition-bans-critical-voices-14102007

guydebordisdead seems to think it's the same group too. It might not be formally the same organisation in the sense it'll be an Irish section with it's own leadership structure etc., but it's not a 'different' group to the British HOPI is it?

Who are the suppliers in question.

Really? I missed that argument.

I don't think industrial action against military re-fueling is likely in Shannon as:
(a) there isn't really much in the way of publically expressed opposition in the area.
(b) I could have missed it but there seems to have been none, or very little, strike action among groundstaff in Shannon about the Aer Lingus re-location, or the ending of the Shannon stopover. Hasn't there generally been a division with the Aer Riannta workforce, with more militancy in Dublin, and markedly less in Shannon.

It being likely that smaller numbers going further than other folk would be reflective of a wider mood, and up till now anything like that mood doesn't seem to have existed, in fact the contrary has.

Sure it is possible, doesn't seem very likely though. Seems to have been introduced, in this context, originally, purely as an argument against people not employed in the airport taking direct action (not on this thread, in the real world).

Helping create the preconditions seems sensible enough, but would surely require a presence in Shannon, really to be talked about, and the anti-war groups have next to no presence there. The people who were working on building a presence there at one stage, generally seemed to think the goal of direct action (ie from people outside of the workforce), was, in the short term at least, in contradiction with 'building a movement' in the local area.