How much start up money?

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BrazillianJiuJitsu1992's picture
BrazillianJiuJi...
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Jan 10 2012 10:15
How much start up money?

If someone wanted to start like some community programs where they live how much money would they need?

I make like 400 kwid a month and half of that goes to gyms and trainfare.

I figuired the best type of thing is something geared to helping older people round the area, i mean people might be like I'm not fucking anarchist but if were helping their nana or doing something positive where they live then I think it can only be seen in a good light.

Say if someone wnated to do like a program to make sure all the older folks, especially the ones living on their own no family etc have heating, electric one if nessescary, food and some real human interaction I knew an old guy on my street and he seemed really lonely in his last few months.

I also feel like a cunt when I see so many homeless people on the precinct or on my way home from the gym and sometimes like buy two coffees and sit and chill with em for abit but thats pointless, how much would it be to get like some old houses squatted and get heaters and food beds etc and try and get a friendly place for homeless people to be able to chill.

I had to live in a hostel for a few days once and it was spooky people screaming at themself in the room next to me etc not the most relaxing enviorement haha, not very conductive to getting people to come together everyone seems paranoid in them places.

Before anyones a massive cunt I know this is not revolutionary but atleast it would give anarchists some basis in their own communities.

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Jan 10 2012 11:12

Rather than forking out from your own pocket, I would be looking into ensuring that people who don't have the basics are getting all the help they can get from existing structures. Are they claiming and receiving all the benefit they are entitled to? Are they taking advantage of schemes which are supposed to help them - I'm thinking specifically of the "free insulation" schemes currenlty operating e.g. https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/in-your-area/housing-services/environmental-sustainability/free-insulation-scheme/eligibility.html but there may be other similar things.

This approach might not have much to do with libertarian communism, but so what. One problem with schemes like these is that not everyone is able to take advantage of them because they are either not aware of them or they need help following the process.

If tenants do not have appropriate heating facilities then landlords should be pressed into providing it. There may be more opportunities for libcom action in this arena.

There is nothing pointless about sharing some time and coffee with a homeless person. I'm sure it can be a lonely existence and a friendly chat won't go amiss.

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Jan 10 2012 16:20

Yeah it may not be revolutionary but helping people's never bad. Tbh startup cash needs depends on what you're hoping to do - visiting the homeless with tea and biscuits is pretty cheap but providing a sustainable safe space for the night is likely to be way beyond your means.

If there's a partiular gap you want to fill (say a project for a warm community cafe for people to stay in during the day) the key thing'll be who you know and how many people you can galvanise, so start grabbing potential allies early. A mate of mine once set up a community space in the village hall, took him five years and a team of a dozen folks from round the way to make it happen - so for any bigger projects you might want to bear in mind it'll take a while!

He also cultivated good contacts on the local council which is invaluable for the sake of funding applications, finding potential council properties to get a peppercorn rent on and to avoid getting them in the frame of mind to shut you down. Sadly, playing the game is the order of the day with any bigger project work unless you have some serious community leverage. Be careful though - anything smacking of Big Community is likely both to draw the political vultures and the little Hitlers, the best defence will be community influence - don't sign your autonomy away!

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Jan 10 2012 16:39

You could hold Food not Bombs type events. They're a way to combine social interaction with yummy nutrition (also a great way to "evangelize" if you are so inclined though I think some may take that as patronizing).

The only thing you'd need is a place to cook and eat - maybe nearby community centres will help you out with that. Well, you need food too, obviously.

Whether you dive dumpsters for food is another question, however (and largely depends on availability of "free" food "lying around", over here stores padlock their garbage), but it's theoretically a way to keep this as low-cost as possible, practice may turn out quite different however.

The way FNB is meant to work from what I understand is that the people eventually take over the organizing and cooking to blur the line between givers and receivers.

I think squatting is a great idea too, if you're really badass you could use that house as the community center itself.

However, as others have pointed out, no one can give you a shopping list without enough info, and even then we'd struggle with it because we lack proper context (as in, we don't know all details of the situation, that to me is something impossible unless you're directly involved)

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Jan 10 2012 17:36
BrazillianJiuJitsu1992 wrote:

I make like 400 kwid a month and half of that goes to gyms

on my way home from the gym

We get it BJJ, you go to the gym. Lots smile

Also, my gym is 16 pounds a month. No joke.

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Jan 10 2012 17:38

lol well my penis size wont wow you so had to make it known I am a beast grin

goes to do some beasty stuff

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Jan 10 2012 17:55

Choccy v. BJJ in a libcom battle royale?

Who's up for it? Who knows, might make enough to get you that start up money... wink

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Jan 10 2012 19:20

Of course helping people is a good thing in itself.

However as an anarchist/libcom I think it's more important for our primary focus to not be on trying to set up some sort of charitable enterprise to help people, but on trying to fight with others to defend the services which we already have. And in particular fight to defend services which the state currently provides and which the government is currently trying to replace with well-meaning people like you - unpaid volunteers or "The Big Society".

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Jan 10 2012 19:31
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Choccy v. BJJ in a libcom battle royale?

Who's up for it? Who knows, might make enough to get you that start up money... ;)

I would blag and say I would take it however I am pretty sure the danger of him seeing red, coming to my gym, which i unwittingly told him i attend and armbaring the shit out of me for 2 hours is too high to allow me to do that.

So I am going to be the bigger man and walk away, which may turn into a run as i see a blue stripe glingting in the distance grin

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Jan 10 2012 19:34
Steven. wrote:
Of course helping people is a good thing in itself.

However as an anarchist/libcom I think it's more important for our primary focus to not be on trying to set up some sort of charitable enterprise to help people, but on trying to fight with others to defend the services which we already have. And in particular fight to defend services which the state currently provides and which the government is currently trying to replace with well-meaning people like you - unpaid volunteers or "The Big Society".

This is very true, but I feel the fact I know this is not a force for social change is important, it is jsut a way of gaining a presence where I live.

Your average person couldn't give a flying fuck about a rally or an occupation but care when your with them fighting the horrible little things that make life suck.

Like huey newton said J edgar hoover correctly said the free breakfast for schoolchildren program was the number one threat to the internal security of the united states bcause it engendered a certain following in the community, wether someones a capitalist, socialist or apolitical you can't argue with free grits, especially if its your kids eating them.

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Jan 10 2012 19:55
Steven. wrote:
Of course helping people is a good thing in itself.

However as an anarchist/libcom I think it's more important for our primary focus to not be on trying to set up some sort of charitable enterprise to help people, but on trying to fight with others to defend the services which we already have. And in particular fight to defend services which the state currently provides and which the government is currently trying to replace with well-meaning people like you - unpaid volunteers or "The Big Society".

I've always wondered, isn't that essentially a reformist type of action?

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Jan 10 2012 20:14
Chilli Sauce wrote:
We get it BJJ, you go to the gym. Lots smile

Also, my gym is 16 pounds a month. No joke.

To be fair, BJJ you pay for the instruction, sparring partners, insurance etc so it's always a stack more. I train at one of the best in the world and it's 75quid a month, London was even more! That said it's obviousl ystill a fucking rip off.

My 'gym' costs me nothing now - got olympic bar in the garden smile

Steven. wrote:
Of course helping people is a good thing in itself.

Back on topic , sorry. Yeah someone said this about trhe 'free universities' meeting at the bookfair. I didn't make that meeting but my old workmate's partner went and he said that, although well-meaning, and coming from a good place, it all sounded exactly what 'the big society' wants. Basically take all the top provisions best resources, cream it off and give it to those who can afford it, and let the rest of us scramble to build our own.
While of course as you say we shouldbe figthing to take back what we already built and gained, but are now losing again.

That said, I could see an emergence of community/worker/self-education intiatives happening given no one can afford uni, certainly not most kids I teach.

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Jan 10 2012 20:26

@Jimclarke:The idea of people revolting without any leadership or action by those of us already seeing things in a revolutionary prespective is such a lame cop out.

People literally have no idea about politics or the ideas of anarchism, autonomy, they have no anti state incilng and the rose tinted view that people will rise up is ridiculous to those of us who actually try and put forth revolutionary ideas.

For example my dad and all the workers at his factory were layed off, yet they did not rise up and they were losing their jobs, so what are the odds people will rise up over anything unless the parts of the working class already radicalised are in the community doing things to bring them round to our way of thinking.

People say the panther programs were reformist and talk as armchair revolutionaries always do, but what were anarchist groups doing when the panthers were organising and building broad support, nothing, the only anarchists of that time doing anything were Anarchists in the bpp who later were involved with the BLA, while the white middle class revolutionaries were establishing eliteist "guerrilla" groups and bombing shit doing nothing to improve or build on the workers conditions.

Its not reformism its called doing something possible not sitting round debating about marxist economics while poor people stay poor and without the education they need, i needed before I became an anarchist and what every worker needs.

The only way they get this is through us anarchists already here.

Suppose its easier to critisize realistic organising though.

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Jan 10 2012 20:59
Tommy Ascaso wrote:
We're not trying to win any reform, we're trying to actually win improvements in our living condition, not because we want life under capitalism to be any better, but because we want to build up the collective power of the working class to a point where it can actually abolish the social relationship with capital.

Note that I'm not against this kind of action, just a bit suspicious of it (which I consider a healthy approach to everything one encounters)

The point I'm kind of struggling with is what happens after a successful struggle. I can see lots of people going back to their old lives, and when another issue pops up, they attempt the same course of struggle again (hopefully).

Now its already in itself valuable that people learn to fight for themselves, but I'm not sure how one bridges the gap between "just" that (effectively struggle reduced to single incidents) and actively encouraging class consciousness and class struggle on a wider front.

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Jan 10 2012 21:14

Workers not radicalised by people who already hold radical political views will not come to revolutionary conclusions about what action to take.

It takes along time to go from non political to revolutionary, when people fail to see this its just ignoring reality and saying reform wont end capitalism is a strawman, the point of community programs isnt that these programs will end capitalism, but rather the unity and consciousness they can produce will, hopefully lead to an organised united working class rising up together.

Again when my dad and all the workers at his factory were layed off, why didn't their conditions trigger a revolt, an occupation of the factory, or a strike in the year or two when they were getting ready to set up a factory in poland?

Because the people being fucked over did not understand the nature of their oppression or how they could combat it.

My father didn't come home, break the news and go, well better form a workers council and occupy the fatory. He came home and said for fucks sake, ahd a brew and hoped his uniopn could do something.

Could you maybe outline what should be done if doing anything bar open revolt is pointless?

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Jan 10 2012 21:28

but to see what we need to do, aka control the means of production, abolish the state hierachy, create an economy that is non monetary, have a federation of councils etc etc you need to have read some books, had marxists/anarchists discuss this stuff with you, I didn't know what capitalism was, what communism was just a couple of year ago, My dad still does not and even defends people making profit, buisness as he has this idea that the rich ahve "overheads" and work more.

I explain the fact he made commodities to the value of thousands a day, the capitalist then paid him a wage, sold his produce and made surplus value off of it,he then says yeah they are all abstards and moves on to some other conversation.

You have this idea people know whats revolutionary, they don't why would they sieze their workplace or form a workers council if they don't understand what these things are and why they are needed.

Why do people not get you can't support an idea or ideology youve never heard of and don't you think if maybe We could get ssome sort of popular support and people geting involved in community programs ran by the people who live there for themselves and other people who live there then they might become radicalised through the dicusion and practical work we do together.

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Jan 10 2012 21:43

This debate seems to get raised again and again, but taking action in the workplace is about having confidence, not politics. In fact, oftentimes "action precedes consciousness" with the ostensibly non-politicised workers taking more militant action than than supposedly radical ones. As always, I recommend Brecher's Strike! on this.

In my experience organising, the worst thing we can attempt to do is attempt to organise workmates politically. Instead, we have to relate to the materially, about real life grievances that they're willing to take action on. From those little victories, people will be ready to tackle larger battles--eventually up to whole factory closures. It's struggle that creates the place for politics and, emphatically, not the other way around.

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Jan 10 2012 21:43
Tommy Ascaso wrote:
While that might have worked well for the Black Panthers, we're not trying to get a following, we want people to act for themselves.

Controversial depiction of the panthers right there wink

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Jan 10 2012 21:47

when i say political I dont mean in the sense like that, what I am saying is that while unconsciouss workers may strike or take some sort of action, they don't have the full knowledge of what to do to end the current system or even the want to, just being angry at something does not make you for something.

Unless workers understand the nature of oppression as a wage slave, striking for beter pay, defence of current pay etc is just a bandaid and won't result in a real change, which is why I think its so important to do these small programs etc to raise consciousness and to get people to see its not individual gripes or problems but the system itself and our class position in it.

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Jan 10 2012 21:51

wait so your saying if i ask my brother, father, mother, cousin, auntie who all work what the ultimate goal we as a class should be aiming for they would say to take control of the place they work etc, trust me thats not.

Again I have never heard a worker who wasnt already into radical politics ever say we need a different system etc, just heard them say how shit life is, not that a new way of running society is needed, or is even possible.

What kind of people live near you, i need to get me some neighbors or workmates liek that lol.

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Jan 10 2012 22:05

no they do it when they are consciouss and organised, hence organising workers in our communities... bah nevermind.

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Jan 10 2012 22:25
Tommy Ascaso wrote:
What we want to do is give workers the confidence to act again, we do this by organising small struggles and eventually they build up.

Would you say having oratory (or better, rhetoric) skills is a valuable asset for us then, to ignite the spark of inspiration to act for oneself/ourselves?

Because I don't have any. And I guess this sort of thing would be seen as quite manipulative by some...

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Jan 10 2012 22:39

Id be an awesome public speaker man, I would be a combination of H rap Brown and the chuckle brothers.

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Jan 11 2012 00:11

Yeah, like Huey Freeman in The Boondocks who in one episode tried to get the cinema workers unionized which only got them laid off and they were like, fuck you and thanks for nothing.

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Jan 11 2012 09:35

Nah I would get them to strike for their right.... to parttyyy!

Sorry, I have shamed my ancestors sad

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Jan 15 2012 19:09
Quote:
Workers not radicalised by people who already hold radical political views will not come to revolutionary conclusions about what action to take.

Radical workers have to come from somewhere, workers can radicalise themselves by their response to their conditions.

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Jan 15 2012 21:21
jef costello wrote:
Quote:
Workers not radicalised by people who already hold radical political views will not come to revolutionary conclusions about what action to take.

Radical workers have to come from somewhere, workers can radicalise themselves by their response to their conditions.

Is the outcome of this self-radicalization always positive? I'm not going to use any specific examples, but there have been times when the working class was both debased and co-opted, in response to miserable conditions.

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Jan 15 2012 21:53
no.25 wrote:
Is the outcome of this self-radicalization always positive? I'm not going to use any specific examples, but there have been times when the working class was both debased and co-opted, in response to miserable conditions.

It's not necessarily positive, I just felt that BJJ seemed to be saying that radicalisation was something that needed to be done by radicals.

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Jan 15 2012 22:18

If its not then workers will take concessions and sell other workers out as if their justfighting for better pay and conditions not an end to wages and capitalism why wouldnt they go back to work when they get better pay because their government is imperialist and can give us more due to thirdworld super exploitation. Unless workers have a radical stance the unions get deals for some workers and the militancy ends. No doubt im noy coherent as its late

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Jan 15 2012 22:24

Also look at half the population deamonising striking teachers, and even those teachers never showed any solidarity with my dad when he was fucked over. Unless workers have radical ideas they wont unite and struggle together for anything than a better deal, capitalism ca,t give us all a "good" wage so by its very nature striking without radical intentions is being out for yourself and not really giving a fuck about other workers.

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Jan 16 2012 08:05

I don't think it's that simple BJJ. I mean if you remember the BA cabin crew strike--one of the most militant we've seen in past years--the workers (not the union) were publicly saying "we're not militants". Obviously, they had militants ideas, but they weren't vocalising them.

And I guess that the point I've been trying to make: often the militancy and radicalism comes before it's articulated. It's the struggle itself that opens up the space for radicals to begin having conversations about things like class and capitalism.

It's also probably worth noting that it's been governments' and capitals' policy to divide up the workforce (often with the help of the trade unions) since capitalism first began. That basic solidarity of sympathy strikes and strikes spreading across and between industries was the norm in early capitalism.

Once again, I can't recommend Brecher's Strike! enough.

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