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It doesn't seem to me like they violate any anarchist principles either
probably a few....
IWCA
oisleep wrote:
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It doesn't seem to me like they violate any anarchist principles eitherprobably a few....
for starters i think they stand in local council elections. also as a tactic, i don't know what their long-term goal is. i remember a while ago on another thread here someone (rightly) said that the IWCA's strategy will only ever end up as democratically-managed working class ghettoes.
The IWCA are passable but the ''community organising only'' approach that they seem to embody a lot of the time, their electoralism and the red action connection would be enough combined to put me off. That said they do quite a lot of good stuff on a day to day basis. That said I haven't heard much from them recently, it sees like they've run ut of momentum a little or something, oisleep can correct me if i'm wrong there but they've just seemed pretty quiet of late.
zarathustra wrote:
The Independent Working Class Association seem like a very interesting group. I agree with much of their ideology and their community approach seems practical and no-nonsense. It doesn't seem to me like they violate any anarchist principles either, particularly, seeing as they are not involved in the national state but just in local government.
As far as my experience of local government goes thats not a good thing, i mean local government still represents the capitalist class, sometimes in fact it does this in a far more direct way than national government does. Also i'm not convinced by the arguement that standing in local elections is practical either, i mean when we're talking about campaigns over amenities all too often standing in a local election is a death knell for that campaign.
this activity in birmingham sums up for me the proper IWCA approach
http://www.redaction.org/bulletins/community.html#75_1
a response to the political abandonment of the working class by new labour, a response to the implicit policy of containment of crime to working class estates, and shows how scared, and to what lengths, police and governing institutions (including local councils) will go to when it becomes clear their dominance is threatened by a collective solid response by people to the conditions they find themselves in
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an official committee was formed, representing a good cross section of the community, white, black and Asian. All with different backgrounds and different stories to tell, but with two things in common - a determination that something was going to be done, and a realisation that the fate of Newtown as a community lay not with the police or absentee Labour councillors or MP s but with the community itself.
up to you if you want to attack a group for only organising in the community, although given that's what it says on the tin and where we're active it gets done well it does tick a few boxes that are left unticked in regards to other groups that are out there, but given the dire state of the wider pro working class 'movement' i find it a little odd that people heap so much criticism at the iwca for doing what they have chosen to do, it's a small group with limited resources and therefore have to pick it's battles wisely and appropriately, and once done so it gets on with them with a focus that sticks to what it's set out to do, granted on paper the anarchists & leftists seem to cover it all though, global revolution, society run on a non hierarchial basis, production & distribution of modern day goods, needs & services somehow just magiced into existence - nope the iwca certainly doesn't offer all that, but what's the point as it's just words on paper and message boards, largely disconnected from the majority of ordinary people's needs, desires, wants and aspirations
i'm not sure how much you heard about them before cantdo, so i'm not unable to judge whether they have run out of steam in your opinion or not, it's true we lost two council seats in oxford the other week, what was notable about that campaign however was the resources that were pumped into those two wards by labour, in one the sitting MP's wife (who was also a county concilor) and the machinery of her husband's office was pumped into the campaign, and in the other a doctor in the community (who levearged of his 'trusted' role in the community) was given everything they required (students bused in to swamp the place during campaigning etc..) to get rid of the iwca presence in those wards - just like the story above in birmingham, it shows you must be doing something right when you are met with that level of fire power
ghandi used to say this - first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win
regardless of the sectarianism of this board and internet politics boards in general, it's fair to say the iwca are at stage three of the above, anarchism & leftists regretably are at stage one, i'd like them to be up a few stages as i do believe the class war needs to be fought on many fronts, and realistically given the lay of the land there's not any group barely able to fight it on one front at the moment
a lot of the iwca analysis from 12 years ago is only now beginning to be accepted as true by the mainstream, the folly of multiculturalism - it took them a while but they finally ended up with the view that the iwca has held for a decade and a half - the political abandonment of the working class by new labour, this has been talked about quite a bit in the mainstream news lately in light of the 10p tax debacle etc..although it's always been the cornerstone of the reason for the iwca's existence, although unfortunately the BNP have been the only group to really to capitalise on that and obviously under a different agenda
i don't want to get this dragged into the usual sectarian bollocks, but i do think it's fair to say that the iwca's objectives and approach are ones that are capable of resonating with ordinary people who have concerns about housing, crime, anti-social behaviour, inequality, access to services and entitlements etc..., i'm not saying these people all would blanketly rule out a pop at the type of dream conjured up by anarchists & leftists, but first things first you know, things in the day to day need dealing with and any form of effective organising which achieves this can't be bad, it deals with the immediate day to day issues on one hand but on the other it goes someway towards creating the types of solidarity amongst people in struggle (day to day) that is needed if we are to one day aim for more lofty goals
Thanks for the great reply oisleep.
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i find it a little odd that people heap so much criticism at the iwca for doing what they have chosen to do, it's a small group with limited resources and therefore have to pick it's battles wisely and appropriately
Fairly said indeed!
I think one of the thing you're pointing to is a tendency of what we might call the "leftist" psychology to have "positions" on this, that and the other thing, but who gives a fuck as no impact is made. The positions the IWCA does have -- against multiculturalism, for instance -- seem to have relevance and seem to be stuck by. The most important thing is being practical. Nobody respects a theoretical pointy-head.
I think that this idea of "communities of resistance" is great.
cantdocartwheels wrote:
...i mean local government still represents the capitalist class, sometimes in fact it does this in a far more direct way than national government does. Also i'm not convinced by the arguement that standing in local elections is practical either, i mean when we're talking about campaigns over amenities all too often standing in a local election is a death knell for that campaign.
Why should local government represent the ruling class? Dig back further enough and the borough is the folkmote -- the English equivalent of the European communes.
To quote Bookchin:
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Today, with the increasing centralization and concentration of power in the nation-state, a "new politics" ―one that is genuinely new― must be structured institutionally around the restoration of power by municipalities. This is not only necessary but possible even in such gigantic urban areas as New York City, Montreal, London, and Paris. Such urban agglomerations are not, strictly speaking, cities or municipalities in the traditional sense of those terms, despite being designated as such by sociologists.
http://www.democracynature.org/vol1/bookchin_libertarian.htm
oisleep wrote:
i do think it's fair to say that the iwca's objectives and approach are ones that are capable of resonating with ordinary people who have concerns about housing, crime, anti-social behaviour, inequality, access to services and entitlements etc..., i'm not saying these people all would blanketly rule out a pop at the type of dream conjured up by anarchists & leftists, but first things first you know, things in the day to day need dealing with and any form of effective organising which achieves this can't be bad, it deals with the immediate day to day issues on one hand but on the other it goes someway towards creating the types of solidarity amongst people in struggle (day to day) that is needed if we are to one day aim for more lofty goals
Irish republicans, the Black Panthers, and British fascists gained steady grass-roots support by doing just that. Part of the appeal of the National Front was that they got involved in community politics, community organising. Yes they were bastards, but they were pretty successful bastards. It's a bit hard getting "class consciousness" if people are getting mugged, raped, and car-jacked around you. People just get bitter often. I like the idea of an approach were we can make stuff better NOW in our communities and in our lives.
They believes it divides the working class and is discriminatory.
From a speech by IWCA councilor Stuart Craft:
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Our position – which simply argues that to divide people along ethnic and religious lines through segregated housing, youth clubs and schools etc runs contrary to the interests of the working class - is one which most people, black and white, would see as pure common sense. Yet much of the ‘educated’ middle class left seem incapable of grasping this obvious and simple concept.
http://thurrockiwca.wordpress.com/category/multiculturalism-race-immigration/
couple of other things in the interests of balance, i think the slogan 'working class rule in working class areas' is a bit pointless (i don't think there is a need for a slogan in the first place) and secondly in terms of electoralism, i can see why people criticise it, but on the other hand why should those involved in the iwca put in all the hard work on the ground in the areas that they are active in and then step aside every few years come elections for either the BNP or new labour to scoop up a false mandate in election week, and then afterwards the iwca gets back to work again on the ground, therefore buffeting up the elected councilors from other parties. i agree if it came to the point that the electoralism and the pursuit of council seats became the strategy in itself and not one, of many, tactics used in terms of the overall strategy then there would be ample and open grounds for criticism, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case from where i'm standing (i see the electoralism as a by product of the work done on the ground, whereas most councilors see work on the ground as a by product of indulging in elecotralism) - yes it does take up some time & resources that you could argue could be spent doing more work 'on the ground' but then again so does pontificating about the perfect strategy on internet message boards
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oisleep - isn't the problem with electoralism more that it's difficult to attack the council if you're part of it, rather than that it takes up too much time/effort/resources?
for example, just looking through that Craft speech:
Craft wrote:
In our time on Oxford City Council the IWCA has been alone in opposing cross party support for separatist schemes such as the Afro Caribbean Youth Project; the Asian young men only youth group; Muslim mothers swimming sessions and segregated ethnic minority housing. That the majority of Oxford’s citizens are excluded from these schemes and would view them as unfair is of no consequence to councillors desperate for their slice of the ‘ethnic vote’.
whilst I agree that top-down segregation of the working class along race lines is divisive and unproductive, by taking this position aren't the IWCA simply going the other way and opting for top-down denial of working class demands? It looks like out and out reformism to me - that it's not the fact that decisions are made by the council for the working class (instead of by the working class themselves) that is the problem, but rather that the wrong decisions are being made.
it seems to me that the same goes for the IWCA as it does for the Labour Party - once you get elected you stop being a member of the working class and start being a representative of it, with all the problems that that entails.
genuinely not being a sniping cunt, but what's the actual story behind iwca in oxford voting against a living wage motion?
The extent i know about this is a couple of trots saying this proved the iwca were shit etc etc, i think they got it off urban and had no source for it or owt. A quick google search just gets a troty looking trades council page and a pro new labour blog.
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i find it a little odd that people heap so much criticism at the iwca for doing what they have chosen to do
I don't think I've seen them mentioned on here for months - when they're brought up, they get criticised - their members have spent a lot of time criticising everyone else as well I don't think any of this is unusual.
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anarchists & leftists [..] largely disconnected [...]
Do you have a macro set up for this one?
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it's true we lost two council seats in oxford the other week, what was notable about that campaign however was the resources that were pumped into those two wards by labour, in one the sitting MP's wife (who was also a county concilor) and the machinery of her husband's office was pumped into the campaign, and in the other a doctor in the community (who levearged of his 'trusted' role in the community) was given everything they required (students bused in to swamp the place during campaigning etc..) to get rid of the iwca presence in those wards - just like the story above in birmingham, it shows you must be doing something right when you are met with that level of fire power
I was involved with Hackney Independent up until a few months before they ran three candidates for Hackney Council (ceased involvement for different reasons and before that decision was taken) - they got a decent number of votes (around 600 each iirc) but also had the full Labour Party apparatus chucked at them (who got more like 900 to win). I don't think this shows that you're doing something right - it shows you're choosing the wrong battles.
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(i see the electoralism as a by product of the work done on the ground, whereas most councilors see work on the ground as a by product of indulging in elecotralism) - yes it does take up some time & resources that you could argue could be spent doing more work 'on the ground' but then again so does pontificating about the perfect strategy on internet message boards
Regardless of what you think of absentionism, on a purely pragmatic level the electoral system at all levels is set up to exclude marginal political groups via a number of means, making the bussing in of activists to wipe out a bit of local opposition pretty routine.
HI split from the IWCA, at least in part due to the IWCA running in the London Mayoral Elections.
Post split, the IWCA ran a parliamentary candidate in Oxford as well. Regardless of views on electoralism in general - it shows they haven't stuck to a purely local council strategy and 'work on the ground' - and have pumped a decent amount of cash into running for these positions with no chance of winning. The 'publicity' angle which is pushed on this is wrongheaded, given no one reads election leaflets. I don't think it would ever be possible for a Mayoral or Parliamentary candidate to emerge from 'work on the ground', do you?
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regardless of the sectarianism of this board and internet politics boards in general
I'm confused by this statement. You tend to be one of the more sectarian posters on here, and you helped set up an internet politics board that's far worse than this one in terms of tone. Do you claim to be outside this 'internet sectarianism' or was it just a general comment?
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it's fair to say the iwca are at stage three of the above, anarchism & leftists regretably are at stage one
No, I think everyone's pretty much at stage one, especially if you couch it in terms of political groups, as you have. I'm sure some anarchists count getting ringed in by the police at demos as 'now they fight you'.
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i'd like them to be up a few stages as i do believe the class war needs to be fought on many fronts, and realistically given the lay of the land there's not any group barely able to fight it on one front at the moment
The class war isn't fought by political groups, it's fought by classes.
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a lot of the iwca analysis from 12 years ago is only now beginning to be accepted as true by the mainstream
Again, I'm not sure how this is a good thing - as with the rest of your post it situates the IWCA entirely within the realm of politics, public policy, the media.
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the view that the iwca has held for a decade and a half - the political abandonment of the working class by new labour, this has been talked about quite a bit in the mainstream news lately in light of the 10p tax debacle etc..although it's always been the cornerstone of the reason for the iwca's existence
Now this is more interesting. It's my view that New Labour was never in a position to abandon the working class, because it never was a 'party of the working class' or whatever to begin with. What it's doing is fulfilling it's social role - one which it also filled when in power pre-Thatcher (given that Callaghan's government prefigured much of Thatcher's measures anyway for just one example). This idea that the working class has 'lost' political representation via the Labour Party some time between the '80s and '90s and that groups need to fill that gap (and these groups could be from either the IWCA or the BNP) does indeed seem to be central to the IWCA but it's also very much flawed.
it's all flawed isn't it catch, yawn...
i can't be arsed going throught the motions on this, i've said my piece, there's not much to gain from pontificating on here, i have no desire to convince or win over anybody here, i was asked my opinion on it and gave it, i'll leave the anarchists to find the perfect solution (lol)
jack the reason they voted against it was because they wanted a redistribution of earnings from the higher paid executive etc.. to fund the living wage, all the other parties voted against this and wanted to fund it by an increase in council tax and the iwca opposed this
oisleep wrote:
couple of other things in the interests of balance, i think the slogan 'working class rule in working class areas' is a bit pointless (i don't think there is a need for a slogan in the first place) and secondly in terms of electoralism, i can see why people criticise it, but on the other hand why should those involved in the iwca put in all the hard work on the ground in the areas that they are active in and then step aside every few years come elections for either the BNP or new labour to scoop up a false mandate in election week, and then afterwards the iwca gets back to work again on the ground, therefore buffeting up the elected councilors from other parties. i agree if it came to the point that the electoralism and the pursuit of council seats became the strategy in itself and not one, of many, tactics used in terms of the overall strategy then there would be ample and open grounds for criticism, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case from where i'm standing (i see the electoralism as a by product of the work done on the ground, whereas most councilors see work on the ground as a by product of indulging in elecotralism) - yes it does take up some time & resources that you could argue could be spent doing more work 'on the ground' but then again so does pontificating about the perfect strategy on internet message boards
I don't see how not participating in elections is stepping aside, they should be undelrining how little the parties actually do. What do you mean by 'buffeting up'? If the IWCA is active on the ground and getting things done then they need to make sure people know about it and if they're failing to do that then councillor or not they need to work on that strategy.
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it's all flawed isn't it catch, yawn...i can't be arsed going throught the motions on this, i've said my piece, there's not much to gain from pontificating on here, i have no desire to convince or win over anybody here, i was asked my opinion on it and gave it, i'll leave the anarchists to find the perfect solution (lol)
It's hardly as if I'm 'pontificating' - I'm writing from the perspective of someone who's spent many, many days delivering newsletters, knocking on doors, organising kids cinemas etc., for well over a year with a group that split from the IWCA shortly before I joined it. If all you've got to offer is one liners, insults and unsupported assertions why bother posting at all?
oisleep wrote:
jack the reason they voted against it was because they wanted a redistribution of earnings from the higher paid executive etc.. to fund the living wage, all the other parties voted against this and wanted to fund it by an increase in council tax and the iwca opposed this
the people I was arguing with said this, and I said they were talking shit and it was obviously ridiculous.
I'm genuinely shocked, and obviously from a personal perspective think this is pretty shitty. At a local level, our branch could possibly pursue 'brighton weighting' - as Brighton cost of living is as much as (if not more) than London. One of the main arguments against this is it'd lead to a council tax rise. While we'd obviously prefer no rise (if nothing else, most of our members live in B&H and so would be affected by it, I'd strongly support the claim, whether it's paid for out of council tax rises or not.
This aside tho, it just seems really bizare. Assuming the motion was the standard TUC living wage of £6.70 an hour, this is not going to affect many workers. On a quick work out, this is just workers on Scale 1, in the bottom 5 Spinal Column points - so only people in the lowest paid jobs, who have been there less than 5 years. In a city the size of Oxford (approx 120,000 people) this can be at most, what 500 people at best? At a maximum of about 70p an hour increase - £1300 a year roughly if we were to assume they were all full time. Which they wouldn't be since most scale 1 jobs are cleaners, "dinner ladies" etc. and so overwhelmingly on low hours contracts.
I can't see if being that much extra on council tax then even if it was entirely funded this way?? Just seems a really bizare decision to have taken.
catch wrote:
If all you've got to offer is one liners, insults and unsupported assertions why bother posting at all?
yep a brief review of this thread (and my postings here over the last 6 months) shows that's all i've done - one liners, insults and unsupported assertions - well done for spotting this
i've already said i've no desire to go through the motions with toytown anarchists on this so i've no need to bother posting at all now anyway, which was exactly what i said above - well done again for spotting this
and i find it delicious that you point to MATB, a board on which loony anarchists, class struggle anarchists, trots, stalinists, liberals, religious nuts,and iwca supporters all post on and generally get along ok, as sectarian, yet hold this place up as something supposedly less sectarian - once again, well done for spotting this
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...i mean local government still represents the capitalist class, sometimes in fact it does this in a far more direct way than national government does. Also i'm not convinced by the arguement that standing in local elections is practical either, i mean when we're talking about campaigns over amenities all too often standing in a local election is a death knell for that campaign.Why should local government represent the ruling class? Dig back further enough and the borough is the folkmote -- the English equivalent of the European communes.
Were not talking about medieval times we're talking about local government in the context of a modern capitalist state. Try goingto a local council meeting like, its got bugger all to with this mythical concept of ''folkmote'', A local council is about as democratic as Tescos Chief executive smacking you over the head with a brick,
oisleep wrote:
up to you if you want to attack a group for only organising in the community, although given that's what it says on the tin and where we're active it gets done well it does tick a few boxes that are left unticked in regards to other groups that are out there, but given the dire state of the wider pro working class 'movement' i find it a little odd that people heap so much criticism at the iwca for doing what they have chosen to do,
Calm down mate i don;t think anyones attacked you or the IWCA on here. The only person who'd lay into them here is probly revol (and lets be honest no-one taks revol seriously any more) i haven't seen anyone else on here be sectarian or offensive towards them. Nobody has ''attacked'; them for organising in the community, people have put forward a few criticisms of it but coming over all defensive like this seems a little unwarranted.
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i'm not sure how much you heard about them before cantdo, so i'm not unable to judge whether they have run out of steam in your opinion or not, it's true we lost two council seats in oxford the other week
I didn't actually know about those council seats, i was just referrin to you guys being a bit quiet of late, like i didn't hear anything about the mayoral elections this year form you guys and so on.
I mean i don't know if you lot produce a newsletter or not, id genuinelly be interested in obtaining a copy or two if you do atm. I mean since like most people in the UK i don't live in an IWCA constituency and you obviously aren't going to get any coverage in the national press i have to take my views of you solely based on your internet presence like and a lot of the local websites seem porrly updated compared to a couple of years back.
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, what was notable about that campaign however was the resources that were pumped into those two wards by labour, in one the sitting MP's wife (who was also a county concilor) and the machinery of her husband's office was pumped into the campaign, and in the other a doctor in the community (who levearged of his 'trusted' role in the community) was given everything they required (students bused in to swamp the place during campaigning etc..) to get rid of the iwca presence in those wards - just like the story above in birmingham, it shows you must be doing something right when you are met with that level of fire power
Yeah true,we've al seen the way local councils group together when any mildly radical campiagn gets off the ground. And the labour party generally seems to froth at the mouth whenever the IWCA is mentioned. Although in fairness thats mostly because local councillors are worried about their jobs, i don;t think they perceive you as any sort of threat on a national level like.
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i don't want to get this dragged into the usual sectarian bollocks, but i do think it's fair to say that the iwca's objectives and approach are ones that are capable of resonating with ordinary people who have concerns about housing, crime, anti-social behaviour, inequality, access to services and entitlements etc.
.., i'm not saying these people all would blanketly rule out a pop at the type of dream conjured up by anarchists & leftists, but first things first you know, things in the day to day need dealing with and any form of effective organising which achieves this can't be bad, it deals with the immediate day to day issues on one hand but on the other it goes someway towards creating the types of solidarity amongst people in struggle (day to day) that is needed if we are to one day aim for more lofty goals
No offence but like a large chunk of this towns on average fairly young population my ''day to day issues'' generally involve working in a call centre. I'm not saying that the IWCA doesn't deal with other issues quite well, i'm sure it does but just speaking on a personal level here to me its generally quality of job that is the biggest contributer to my quality of life.
oisleep wrote:
catch wrote:
If all you've got to offer is one liners, insults and unsupported assertions why bother posting at all?yep a brief review of this thread (and my postings here over the last 6 months) shows that's all i've done - one liners, insults and unsupported assertions - well done for spotting this
More of the same then.
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i've already said i've no desire to go through the motions with toytown anarchists
I'm not an anarchist.
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and i find it delicious that you point to MATB, a board on which loony anarchists, class struggle anarchists, trots, stalinists, liberals, religious nuts,and iwca supporters all post on and generally get along ok, as sectarian, yet hold this place up as something supposedly less sectarian
This isn't what I said at all. However feel free to keep throwing those bricks at your glass house.
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Calm down mate i don;t think anyones attacked you or the IWCA on here. The only person who'd lay into them here is probly revol (and lets be honest no-one taks revol seriously any more) i haven't seen anyone else on here be sectarian or offensive towards them. Nobody has ''attacked'; them for organising in the community, people have put forward a few criticisms of it but coming over all defensive like this seems a little unwarranted.
fair enough although given that all i said was 'i find it a little odd that people heap so much criticism at the iwca for doing what they have chosen to do' - i hardly think that's coming over all defensive
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I didn't actually know about those council seats, i was just referrin to you guys being a bit quiet of late, like i didn't hear anything about the mayoral elections this year form you guys and so on.
I mean i don't know if you lot produce a newsletter or not, id genuinelly be interested in obtaining a copy or two if you do atm. I mean since like most people in the UK i don't live in an IWCA constituency and you obviously aren't going to get any coverage in the national press i have to take my views of you solely based on your internet presence like and a lot of the local websites seem porrly updated compared to a couple of years back.
running in the 2004 mayoral election was essentially a profile raising exercise, i don't think there's any desire to do it on a regular basis.
there is a danger i suppose of taking the amount of 'noise' that's made by a group on the internet as a benchmark for what they actually do in real life, and fair enough if that's how people want to set their benchmarks then clearly the iwca is failing quite badly, as i agree the local websites are not updated that much, but again that goes back to the point i made above, the iwca in terms of activity effectively only constitutes a small number of groups with limited time & resources, as such they choose how the expend those resources wisely and do so to make the most effective use out of them - as the groups are organised locally they obviously don't see the internet as being that critical as a tool for their work, all the areas produce regular newspapers that are distributed in the area where they are active, and that's seen as more key than relying on the internet (which can often leave you with a very specific group/type of people being targeted which can be quite exclusive in its self) - so as far as the local websites not being up to date, the only downside to that is that folk outwith those areas or those not close to the iwca don't really know what's going on, but i don't really see that being much of a concern for the local groups as their focus is on where their active and i doubt they'd really give a shit about not being able to impress people on the internet (not aiming this at you, just in general). I do believe the national website could and should be more proactive in this area however as there is a bit more need for that at the national level
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Yeah true,we've al seen the way local councils group together when any mildly radical campiagn gets off the ground. And the labour party generally seems to froth at the mouth whenever the IWCA is mentioned. Although in fairness thats mostly because local councillors are worried about their jobs, i don;t think they perceive you as any sort of threat on a national level like.
well the two wards i mentioned were IWCA held seats, so not sure about your point about local councilors concerned about their seats as they didn't have any to lose going into that one, re national level i don't think anyone has put forward the case that the iwca is seen as a threat at the national level, however they are clearly seen as a threat at the local level where they are active, and there is a marked difference in the resources that labour have put in to lots of other working class areas (i.e. very little as they just complacently rely on a trapped target labour voter or realise that huge chunks of working class people don't bother to vote anyway so they can target a slither of middle class middle england types to carry an election victory) and those areas where the iwca has been active, so obviously they seem to think there is something there that is worth fighting, clearly at present the few local areas that they are active in is not enough to mount any threat beyond the immediate locality, but i do believe there is a fear of that type of movement/activity spreading (not necasirly the iwca itself, but more in general communities trying to take things into their hands like the birmingham link i posted above) which is why they seem to be doing so much to nip it in the bud now locally, obviously this may be seen by some as the iwca trying to turn losing (an election) into a victory of sorts
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No offence but like a large chunk of this towns on average fairly young population my ''day to day issues'' generally involve working in a call centre. I'm not saying that the IWCA doesn't deal with other issues quite well, i'm sure it does but just speaking on a personal level here to me its generally quality of job that is the biggest contributer to my quality of life.
i've no idea what your first sentence means sorry, although i get your point, all i can say is what i said above, the class war is fought on many fronts, the iwca have chosen theirs and given the limited time & resources that members have it would be foolish to try and cover all bases, if you personally feel that the quality of your job is the biggest contributer to your quality of life (and not things like access to decent housing and healthcare, crime, drug activity, anti social behaviour, living in atomised communities etc..) then it's clear you need to be fighting the class war on a different front to that chosen by the iwca, and all the very best in that regard cantdo
Thank you for your excellent and informative replies "oisleep", and thanks to everybody for remaining polite and non-sectarian.
cantdocartwheels -- I agree. But the IWCA strategy, as far as I can tell, is to control local government to rubber-stamp what is being done in the community by the grassroots. And i'm arguing that, unlike parliament, local government may well to usable for these ends.
zarathustra wrote:
But the IWCA strategy, as far as I can tell, is to control local government to rubber-stamp what is being done in the community by the grassroots.
that sounds like almost exactly what the socialist parties argued at the end of the 19th century - that and that running for parliament would be profile-raising.
I'm sorry, but the IWCA does increasingly sound like an attempt to create a 'real' Labour Party
A couple of brief points:
I wouldn't put my time and effort into electoralism, but I don't think it's fair to say the IWCA are trying to recreate the Labour Party. Their determination to only do this on a grassroots level, their relcutance to set up IWCA branches without the resources and their discomfort at electoral stunts like the London Mayoral elections point to something different. I think time will tell, but I can't see that changing until they start winning councils, and that's a very long way off as there appear to only be 3 branches. (The Red Action connection seems to be only one branch as well, not sure what happened to those RA members outside Islington, but the IWCA is hardly dominated by them).
oisleep - yourself and presumably others on MWATB are IWCA supporters without a branch - a logical division of labour would be for some of those people to take on doing things like the website and publicity. I appreciate that most of your target audience aren't regularly on the net, but if someone should want more info from something they see or get given, they'll find less than they probably need. It might also get you more members in other places.
I think the Living Wage in Oxford thing was a mistake. Argue that it should come from redistribution, fine. But do people earning less than £12890 a year for a full time job don't deserve to be paid more? Mind you, I read today the whole idea of living wages is threatened by EU law for being uncompetitive. Apparently it's unfair to companies based in low-wage areas to expect them to pay a wage reflecting the cost of where the work is. 
Regards,
Martin
Django wrote:
Do the IWCA have an anticapitalist agenda?
http://www.iwca.info/manifest.htm
Specifically they don't seem to. But then the point is i guess they see themselves as a unitary organisation of the class or a trade union of the community as i beleive they put it so it doesn't neccesarily follow they would be explicitly socialist or anti-capitalist in their rhetoric.
The Independent Working Class Association seem like a very interesting group. I agree with much of their ideology and their community approach seems practical and no-nonsense. It doesn't seem to me like they violate any anarchist principles either, particularly, seeing as they are not involved in the national state but just in local government. It reminds me of Bookchin's libertarian municipalism. Most of all, you have to appreciate people getting stuff done in the here and now, being practical and hard-nosed!
Any thoughts? Impressions? Criticisms?