Joining the SWP?

Seriously - there are. I could split this to a new topic actually? I'm an ex-member.

Please bear in mind that their politics are based on the Bolsheviks' theory and practice around the Russian Revolution, and Trotsky's subsequent ideas. If you don't know much about what happened in Russia - read this:

http://libcom.org/library/the-bolsheviks-and-workers-control-solidarity-group

It's not theory, it's a history of what effect the Bolsheviks had on working class democracy. Seriously, you should read it!

i hope you are right mate - because it is exactly the lack of "long run" that anarchists and libertarian communists are afraid of in SWP/trot politics. So on paper the road looks like it is leading to the same place, but in practise it is not (this is the anarchist position). Working class who get told even by their supposed liberators what to do and that they can't possibly run their own affairs will never be "ready" to govern. So we will be back in the situation of one man management and sending tanks to stop workers being unruly.

Sure this may sound all theoretical and far fetched, but judging from the past trot crimes they have to bear some fucking historical package for it!

you are very right about your analysis, but your conclusion will not help mate. It's like fighting a problem with a problem when you are trying to counteract the bourgeoise propaganda about our class not being able to run our own affairs by just saying exactly the same!

Anarchist position is exactly the opposite: we are trying to create the cultural and political change where our class gets experience and confidence in taking matters into our own hands. This process can be slow, and is done via things which may look small and trivial to start with, but might grow in significance quite quickly if conditions change.

perhaps without leninists/stalinists we would have some more succesful examples already It would be nice if we were all part of the "same struggle", but sadly historically leninists and stalinists have done almost more damage to anarchist and libertarian working class movements than ruling class has!

can't blame you for that. And if you look at the state of british anarchism, i dont blame anyone for getting involved in SWP. I mean, just look at these forums for instance, it is supposedly the "vanguard" of organised anarchists in the country, but still only about 30% of the active posters are members in any of the anarchist groups! Talk about herding cats!

As a result anarchists do not have an organised presence out there. You are from liverpool right? As far as i know neither AF or solidarity federation have a local there. SolFed have couple members there and hopefully will have a local set up there soon, but in all, i can understand why anarchists come across as a disorganised, unruly bunch without any clear goal or strategy.

Dom wrote:

What do you mean by that though? I've got to say I don't see anything the SWP do as engaging with revolutionary politics. You can have as many meetings and marches as you want, and the SWP are really good at keeping busy, but I don't see how any of that contributes towards the 'revolution', whatever that might be.

Part of the problem is that the anarchists in Liverpool aren't terrifically well organised, as you know, you've worked with us. There isn't a structure you can just join in with, but in some ways that's a good thing (in many, indeed, virtually all other ways it's a very, very bad thing). As I see it, the SWP are engaged in frenetic and constant activity aimed not at what they can achieve but at themselves. It's all about building the party, keeping the membership busy, growing and obedient without really considering anything beyond that. With the SWP I don't think it's even a problem of Leninist politics any more, it's just a shark that's got to keep moving because if it doesn't it will die. So you get front group after front group, initiative after initiative all absorbing massive amounts of energy, but all forgotten in a few years.

Alright, we're nowhere near as busy, but everything we do, whether it's shite or not and we've done some crap, is discussed by everyone involved and is owned by everyone involved. I'm not saying that we're more politically effective - I don't think we are at the moment, with the possible exception of Liverpool Defy-ID - but we do have the ability to recognise this and try stuff out. The core of the social forum as a small group is not doing the same things it was doing twelve months ago. Maybe we're doing the wrong things (the social centre's taking up an enormous amount of energy for what is a very small return - although I do think it's a return we need), but there is this space for reflection and for all of us involved to alter the outcomes and goals. That's the important difference, I think we've got enough to stop us turning in on ourselves, whereas the SWP is already self-devouring.

Anyway, I really hope that you don't feel that you have to stop working with us when we're doing something you're interested in. I'll always hold you in high regard and see you as someone I can trust, despite the political differences, and I'd be sorry to lose you as a comrade.

JDMF wrote:

That's pretty much what we are in Liverpool at the moment. The main anarchist focus at the moment is the social forum, and Dom's worked with us on and off for a while now. Clearly we are shite if the SWP's a better option. There is the nucleus of an AF local (I'm joining, and there are three other members so we might be able to do it), which might be a better option if we get it going, but as Dom points out, the theoretical bar on joining that's quite high.

Dom, if you're going to make the meeting tonight, I'd quite like to talk to you about this, or PM me. What are we doing wrong? What do you get from the SWP that you couldn't get from us lot, unruly and disorganised as we are, or one of the national feds?

if you are joining AF then 4 should be plenty for a local surely? At least to get things off the ground. Good luck with getting the local group going!

In SolFed 3 members are required to set up a local, and i believe there are 2 in liverpool already. Hopefully there will be a local there soon as well.

LOL! such small numbers we are talking about

LOL! We don't have an entrance exam you know!

hey but the entry level to anarchist groups is way higher than in SWP etc - you know that?

I mean no entry exams sure, but even when you skim through these forums you see that the level of political knowledge and understanding required not to be shot to pieces is really high. Perhaps the same reputation goes for SF and AF as well?

I guess it says something about common perception tho? This isnt meant as snipe btw

Dom - To what extent has your decision been based on the fact that joining the SWP is often a lot easier than joining an Anarchist group?

In particular I mean the fact that in your town there are not any established anarchist groups, and setting up one yourself is a lot harder work than merely telling the SWP - count me in!

mm. From the sound of it you've made serious efforts to experiement with different modes of and forums for activity. Perhaps the most important question is whether that sort of questioning, experimental and fundamentally open attitude towards politics will be suppressed or facilitated by membership of the SWP.

Admittedly that's a bit of a rhetorical question. I think the most healthy mode of activity is exactly that open attitude (acting commitedly based on what you think at the present but remaining open to change) which you have apparently been engaging in over the past year. All of the beardy stuff that gets chucked around these boards is important, but an intelligent, critical and non-ideological engagement with everyday struggles (which is exactly what is suppressed by a leninist leadership who declaim theory and practice every week in the paper) is the most important thing in engaging in politics.

You can still act with SWP members on all sorts of things, like you act with so many others, and learn through your collective struggle. What you evade by remaining outside the party is party discipline and the dehumanising fact of CC leadership...

hey perhaps this is worth another thread, but i have heard this comment about high level of theory required to join anarchist groups from several people.

This was not my experience in finland - for better and for the worse. But this was my experience here in the UK, which is why it took me a good few years to join SolFed.

Clearly this is an unsustainable situation highlighted by comrades like dom rather joining SWP than the (rightly or wrongly) remote and theoretically demanding AF and SolFed.

As food for thought, in the movie Libertarias, spanish anarchist women stormed into a local brothel to liberate the women.

One of the comrades gave a passionate speech about capitalism and patriarchy, explaining the theory and the vision of the future society. The women were silent and unimpressed, the whole thing just flew over their heads.

Another female comrade stepped in and said "basically its like this: do you want to suck cock 10 times a day just for some shitty stew?".

"NO" shouted all the women and joined the CNT.

That is cool. Right I'm off to Kings Cross 8)

Hmmm...but Dom has said they know the local AF members and they're not an anarchist. Now call me theoretically demanding but you really do need to be an anarchist if you want to join an anarchist organisation.

To clarify, the point i was making was:

1. You've met the local AF members.

2. You're not an anarchist.

They dont call them the Socialist Wankers Party for nothing!

In Belfast, everyone is just fed up by their antics of fronts, control etc, and the sooner their pushed aside the better as they are just parasites

Can I take the AF enterance exam? If possible can you send mw one over the internet? I don^t actually want to join, but I would like to know if I would pass.

Devrim

AF Entrance Exam:

1. Do you agree with our Aims and Principles? YES/NO

2. Will you work as part of the organisation? YES/NO

3. Have you met others in the AF? YES/NO

4. Have you had a chance to discuss our politics with other AF members? YES/NO

5. Is someone else prepared to vouch for you? YES/NO

That's it - 5 YES answers and you pass. Meeting others does not necessarily have to be face to face. Hardly difficult.

SWP Entrance Exam:

1. Will you do what you are told? YES/NO

2. Will you canvas for George Galloway? YES/NO

Even easier.

Dev, I'd welcome you with open arms.

SolFed entrance: Are you in a position to hire or fire or discipline anyone? YES/NO

(Preston supplementary) Are you a priest?

Is that it? Seriously?

there is also the small matter of agreeing with aims and principles

edit: heres a link to the membership application which says it all:

http://libcom.org/hosted/sf/application.htm

We used to have an ex-vicar who was thinking of joining the Red & Black Club, but AFAIK he never got round to it. He wasn't then a vicar and wasn't involved in any dodgy activities, though he was still a Xtian, which, while I find it odd, I don't see it as a barrier to membership.

And Steve, the A&Ps do need to be included, or you end up sounding like the IWW

regards,

martin

I know

Oh yes and a complete knowledge of the life of Rudolf Rocker and a detailed understanding of the history and politics of the CNT.

good command of spanish language does improve your chances as well.

Ay caramba!