NIHILIST — Ukrainian anarchist online zine

69 posts / 0 new
Last post
jura's picture
jura
Offline
Joined: 25-07-08
Mar 3 2018 17:42

2C-B, if I may, I have a few questions from across your Western border. What is your attitude toward deserters and draft dodgers? Do you support disciplinary action against them? What would be your attitude towards a strike or sabotage in armament or munition factories, or in transport, that would disrupt the Ukrainian war effort? Would you support disciplinary action against strikers?

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 13 2018 21:42
Noa Rodman wrote:
In case of the (for now unlikely) scenario that the Ukrainian government at some point in the future will accept the situation of Donbass autonomy/loss of Crimea, and cease the war/mobilisation, what will your position be then?

If Ukrainian military command capitulate at eastern front and the government stop all the claims about Crimea that means two scenarios:

1) Ukraine is crushed. In this case there is no reason to continue conventional war - the better way is the guerrilla warfare against the occupants.
2) The power in Ukraine is usurped by the coalition loyal to Russia. This is one of the possible scenarios - in this case we can face the real civil war. Of course we will take part at the side of the constitutional order because it will gather the most progressive parts of Ukrainian society.

Anyway, I'm not sure that current status quo will change soon, so these scenarios are more hypothetical than real.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 13 2018 22:09
jura wrote:
2C-B, if I may, I have a few questions from across your Western border. What is your attitude toward deserters and draft dodgers? Do you support disciplinary action against them?

We stand for volunteer army type. It means that compulsory military conscription should be abolished. But we can face the situation when the enemy declares a total war - in this case mobilisation is the only way to hold the positions. No difference - is this an anarchist project or common capitalist society.
I'm sure that discipline is the main mean of military force so desertion is a serious misconduct (I can say it only in the context of current military defence).

jura wrote:
What would be your attitude towards a strike or sabotage in armament or munition factories, or in transport, that would disrupt the Ukrainian war effort? Would you support disciplinary action against strikers?

The same thing. The war is the most antianarchist action, but violence is necessary for survival. I don't know any type of modern society that can survive in a war while not using violence and power. It's no other way, so I understand Syrian curds.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 14 2018 08:43

I think that the formula is simple: if you hold a defensive war, everybody who threats your positions against the invaders is your enemy and should be stopped. Of course, it will be better to satisfy the demand of striking workers in the defence industry rather then crack them down. But there are no real threats of such kind of situation in reality - Ukrainian workers mostly disappoint by classic strike methods.

There was such kind of situation in Ukrainian history, when socialist government of Ukrainian people's republic cracked down the strike on the Arsenal military factory in 1918. People wanted the solution of the land issue, and government delayed the decision. As the result the UPR lost it's popularity and Ukraine entered the long going civil war.

By the way, our syndicalist organisation was involved in the "Italian strike" at local machine gun factory in 2011. The factory management solved the wage issue so the workers had won that strike.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 14 2018 08:47

Ukrainian far-rightists: doomed to be Russian

Quote:
The remains of the far-right ideologies are being dumped by the whole world into wastewater. Ukrainian traditionalists, racists, ethnicists etc gratefully collect this garbage to raise it later as a banner. They haven’t learned to have their own meanings. Actually they have, but the problem is that everything that is meaningful and viable naturally stops being far-right and moves towards a more decent policy. And this is good.

Do you know what is even better? However this may sound ridiculous, geopolitics has placed the Ukrainian far-rightists before a very unpleasant fact. All their degenerate Western friends don’t give a fuck about dealing with Ukraine — for them there are no independent Ukrainians who have any of their desires. The idol of the new-fashioned Alt Right is Vladimir Putin, the public ideal is the Russian Federation, in which it is always cold and nothing can be done, and favorite philosopher — the Eurasian Alexander Dugin, who has recently urged to kill Ukrainians. In fact, Ukrainian far-rightists also love Dugin, but can not openly admit it. Ukraine has suffered from Russian «spiritual joints», reinforced by «Grad» rockets.

Their love to everything Russian is so obvious that it’s too lazy to repeat it. But, obviously, it is necessary.

jura's picture
jura
Offline
Joined: 25-07-08
Mar 14 2018 09:29

So your position is that of the defense of Ukraine (and its constitution etc.) against the pro-Russian forces/Russian occupiers. Do you see any parallel between this and, for example, the defense of the French Third Republic against the German Empire in WW1?

Purely hypothetically: don't you think it would make more sense for anarchists to organize, in whatever limited way, resistance to the war on both sides? (E.g., by helping people avoid the draft, by spreading defeatist propaganda, by supporting struggles that threaten the war effort, if there are any such struggles...?)

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 18 2018 12:40
jura wrote:
So your position is that of the defense of Ukraine (and its constitution etc.) against the pro-Russian forces/Russian occupiers.

Correct

jura wrote:
Do you see any parallel between this and, for example, the defense of the French Third Republic against the German Empire in WW1?

No, I don't see because of 2 facts:
1. Ukraine isn't an imperialist state with colonies and aggressive foreign policy;
2. Ukraine was a post-revolutionary country with a big of window of opportunity while it had become a victim of military aggression.
No similarity with WW1 French Republic at all.

jura wrote:
Purely hypothetically: don't you think it would make more sense for anarchists to organize, in whatever limited way, resistance to the war on both sides?

What do you mean "on both sides"? Who is the second side? Ukrainian government? Ukrainian anarchists do oppose the government, but it doesn't mean to oppose the army and it's positions. Government and army aren't the same - the Armed forces of Ukraine are the most popular institution that has a lot of people's support and represents people's aspirations. The government has to support the army with gifts and privileges. It doesn't mean that the army is it's self-sacrificing servant - it serves the people, and it's not a propagandist cliché.
The major enemy of Ukrainian people is the Russian military/proxy force. The minor enemy is Ukrainian government. While there is no guarantee that Ukrainian army will be able to hold the front while the revolution will smash the government, there is nothing to talk about. Anarchism is not about 24/7 riot - it's about people's freedom. During the war we have no choice but to choose a side that will ensure more freedom or less slavery.

jura wrote:
(E.g., by helping people avoid the draft, by spreading defeatist propaganda, by supporting struggles that threaten the war effort, if there are any such struggles...?)

Defeatist propaganda? For what reason? To be smashed by Russia and get a far-right pro-Russian regime?

Uncreative's picture
Uncreative
Offline
Joined: 11-10-09
Mar 18 2018 13:57
2C-B wrote:
Ukrainian anarchists do oppose the government, but it doesn't mean to oppose the army and it's positions. Government and army aren't the same - the Armed forces of Ukraine are the most popular institution that has a lot of people's support and represents people's aspirations. The government has to support the army with gifts and privileges. It doesn't mean that the army is it's self-sacrificing servant - it serves the people, and it's not a propagandist cliché.

Thats a really strange thing to read from someone who calls themself an anarchist. Out of interest, would you be pleased if the army took over the running of the country? Imagine how effectively the generals could serve the people then, wow!

2C-B wrote:
The major enemy of Ukrainian people is the Russian military/proxy force. The minor enemy is Ukrainian government. While there is no guarantee that Ukrainian army will be able to hold the front while the revolution will smash the government, there is nothing to talk about. Anarchism is not about 24/7 riot - it's about people's freedom. During the war we have no choice but to choose a side that will ensure more freedom or less slavery.

Do you envisage a day that the Ukrainian government will not be saying that Russia (or someone else) is a threat to itself and to the freedom of Ukrainians, and when you may be able to resume any form of political activity that is anarchist without fear of undermining the national interest?

Spikymike
Offline
Joined: 6-01-07
Mar 18 2018 14:02

So, some honest if obvious answers from 2-CB based on their earlier longer linked posts, but then ....Ukraine was, and still is, a pawn in bigger imperialist games - outlined here back in 2015 with not much change today despite the confusions of the USA states foreign policy following the election of Trump:
www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2015-02-22/ukraine-torn-apart-by-imperialist-conflict

jura's picture
jura
Offline
Joined: 25-07-08
Mar 18 2018 14:43
2C-B wrote:
1. Ukraine isn't an imperialist state with colonies and aggressive foreign policy;
2. Ukraine was a post-revolutionary country with a big of window of opportunity while it had become a victim of military aggression.

Well, obviously colonialism is over, so states no longer have colonies. I asked about France and Germany because some on the left (including Kropotkin) argued for the defence of the French state as the bearer of democratic traditions of the Enlightenment, as opposed to the junkerist, backward and conservative German Empire. They also argued for a purely defensive war. It seems to me that your reasoning is similar. Fortunately there were anarchists and other socialists who remained on internationalist positions in 1914, as I'm sure there are today in Ukraine.

2C-B wrote:
What do you mean "on both sides"? Who is the second side? Ukrainian government? Ukrainian anarchists do oppose the government, but it doesn't mean to oppose the army and it's positions.

By "both sides", I meant Ukraine and Russia (including Russia-occupied territories of Ukraine).

So do you support defeatism on the part of Russian anarchists and defencism on the part of Ukrainian anarchists? What do you think Russian anarchists should be doing?

2C-B wrote:
Government and army aren't the same - the Armed forces of Ukraine are the most popular institution that has a lot of people's support and represents people's aspirations. The government has to support the army with gifts and privileges. It doesn't mean that the army is it's self-sacrificing servant - it serves the people, and it's not a propagandist cliché.

Since the 1980s, the US military regularly comes up in Gallup polls as the most trusted institution. It does represent many people's aspirations. It provides many poor working class people with a route to a good education, housing etc. This doesn't mean US anarchists should support the military.

2C-B wrote:
Defeatist propaganda? For what reason? To be smashed by Russia and get a far-right pro-Russian regime?

The goal would obviously be to cause a major disruption of the war effort in both Ukraine and Russia, the cessation of hostilities, and ultimately (although unlikely) a proletarian revolution.

I'm sorry to say this but it seems that, as the saying has it, you've "excluded yourself from the proletarian camp".

bastarx
Offline
Joined: 9-03-06
Mar 19 2018 09:24
2C-B wrote:
jura wrote:
(E.g., by helping people avoid the draft, by spreading defeatist propaganda, by supporting struggles that threaten the war effort, if there are any such struggles...?)

Defeatist propaganda? For what reason? To be smashed by Russia and get a far-right pro-Russian regime?

Which is obviously way, way worse than the current far-right pro-US regime.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 20 2018 10:24
Uncreative wrote:
Thats a really strange thing to read from someone who calls themself an anarchist. Out of interest, would you be pleased if the army took over the running of the country? Imagine how effectively the generals could serve the people then, wow!

Hahaha, very funny. Where do you live? Did you ever faced the militarised reaction while having no professional army?
Do you know any recipe how to survive as an individual and as an anarchist while not sitting at home and saying that everything around is fascist, authoritarian, capitalist, nationalist and nothing can be done except of pure proletarian revolution led by anarchist syndicates? Honestly, I'd like to hear about that!

Uncreative wrote:
Do you envisage a day that the Ukrainian government will not be saying that Russia (or someone else) is a threat to itself and to the freedom of Ukrainians, and when you may be able to resume any form of political activity that is anarchist without fear of undermining the national interest?

Actually we spotted Russian aggression and opposed it even before the legitimate government of Ukraine had established in winter-spring 2014, when the first Russian infiltrators revealed in the eastern cities.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 20 2018 10:31
Spikymike wrote:
Ukraine was, and still is, a pawn in bigger imperialist gamest

Anarchist Geopolitics? Hahaha.
Ok, let's imagine that Ukraine is "a pawn in bigger imperialist games". What should honest anarchist do then if pro-Russian proxy establish military far-right juntas and violate the basic human rights? Sit at home and repeat what wise anarchist gurus from the West say? Run away from the country and get a discriminated refugee, for not to stain hands while having disputed occupations? Please, give some workable advice about how to survive and defend basic human rights.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 20 2018 11:12
jura wrote:
Well, obviously colonialism is over, so states no longer have colonies.

Alright then, how would you call the circumstances in which one new-born country is under political and economical pressure (and after 2014 under military pressure) from the bigger and stronger imperialist country? No matter how, the reason is that a weak and poor democratic state is under attack. You may not join our struggle but you have no moral right to judge.

jura wrote:
Fortunately there were anarchists and other socialists who remained on internationalist positions in 1914, as I'm sure there are today in Ukraine.

During the WW1 internationalist acted within imperialist states. This example is not relevant for current Ukrainian-Russian war. In 1914 anarchists from France and Germany counted on solidarity to oppose the interimperialist war. Today's Ukrainian and Russian anarchists have no mutual solidarity, because one reasons: Russian anarchist are the one's who's state began the imperialist war against post-colonial Ukraine so they have to provide anti-war and pro-Ukrainian agenda, but the don't. We were ready to "antiwar" actions if they take place in both countries, so then Russian military could be removed from Crimea and proxy - from Donbass. It was the guarantee of peace. But Russian anarchists mostly decided to blame on Ukraine because of conscious or unconscious Russian state propaganda about fascist putsch in Kiev.
So why should we demonstrate the Christian virtues?

jura wrote:
By "both sides", I meant Ukraine and Russia (including Russia-occupied territories of Ukraine).

What is the reason? What benefit could we get?

jura wrote:
So do you support defeatism on the part of Russian anarchists and defencism on the part of Ukrainian anarchists? What do you think Russian anarchists should be doing?

Because their government started this war, they haven't done nothing to prevent it before and stop it after. If there was no Russian imperial interest, there wouldn't be any war in Ukraine.

jura wrote:
Since the 1980s, the US military regularly comes up in Gallup polls as the most trusted institution. It does represent many people's aspirations. It provides many poor working class people with a route to a good education, housing etc. This doesn't mean US anarchists should support the military.

Do you really compare an imperialist army and post-colonial revolutionary army? Maybe you think that proto-anarchists in the First French republic shouldn't fight against the royal absolutist reaction alongside French army? Or maybe you think that Rojava doesn't deserve solidarity in the war against "Islamic State" because it's... not very anarchistic?

jura wrote:
The goal would obviously be to cause a major disruption of the war effort in both Ukraine and Russia, the cessation of hostilities, and ultimately (although unlikely) a proletarian revolution.

How would you provide the secure anti-war policy that doesn't lead to risk of occupation of Ukraine and violation of all human rights here? I have no recipes and guess that there are such recipes. There is a vital need to oppose the intervention at all fronts including the military front. I still can use basic citizen and political rights because Russian proxy in the east faced the strong defence. If I work for undermining this defence, I will be a disfranchised peace of meat under Russian military control.

jura wrote:
I'm sorry to say this but it seems that, as the saying has it, you've "excluded yourself from the proletarian camp".

It's some kind of anathema? Ok, I even wasn't a part of your church.
But anyway, before you judge on me or my comrades for being "not very proletarian-oriented" move to Ukraine and raise a political movement that you talk about. Then you'll have a moral right for excommunication etc.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 20 2018 11:08
bastarx wrote:
Which is obviously way, way worse than the current far-right pro-US regime.

Hell yeah! The uncompromising struggle against Banderite Fascist Kyiv Junta that kills innocent Russian-speaking babies for glory of world's gendarme USA!

jura's picture
jura
Offline
Joined: 25-07-08
Mar 20 2018 16:07
2C-B wrote:
Alright then, how would you call the circumstances in which one new-born country is under political and economical pressure (and after 2014 under military pressure) from the bigger and stronger imperialist country? No matter how, the reason is that a weak and poor democratic state is under attack. You may not join our struggle but you have no moral right to judge.

I think it's simply imperialism. The idea that anarchists should jump to the defense of weaker or poorer capitalist states based simply on these criteria is ludicrous. There's a weaker and poorer state in any war. (And this is in fact the logic of traditional "anti-imperialism", but I'm quite surprised to see this coming from anarchists.)

2C-B wrote:
We were ready to "antiwar" actions if they take place in both countries, so then Russian military could be removed from Crimea and proxy - from Donbass. It was the guarantee of peace. But Russian anarchists mostly decided to blame on Ukraine because of conscious or unconscious Russian state propaganda about fascist putsch in Kiev.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that you would rather be organizing against the war (and against the war effort), and that you were ready to start doing just that, but then decided not to, because there was no solidarity from anarchists on the Russian side? And that this ultimately led you to supporting the Ukrainian war effort? That would be a pretty tragic story (no joke), but I'd still disagree with you (see below).

2C-B wrote:
What is the reason? What benefit could we get?

Again, I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but above you implied that you know that a joint effort of Ukrainian and Russian anarchists or socialists against the war would make sense (so you know "what benefit" you could get), but eventually you decided against it since the Russian anarchists were not doing anything against the war.

2C-B wrote:
Because their government started this war, they haven't done nothing to prevent it before and stop it after.

Well it's not like it's "their" government. Anyone worthy of the "anarchist" label in Russia is surely against the Russian government. It seems like you simply identify the Russian population with the Russian state. That would be quite shocking for an anarchist.

Note that the internationalists during WW1 didn't apply this "tit-for-tat" reasoning. They didn't base their internationalism on what socialists on the other side of the front were or were not doing – for them, it was a matter of principle, based on a class analysis of the war.

2C-B wrote:
Do you really compare an imperialist army and post-colonial revolutionary army?

I don't think Ukraine is a post-colonial country with a revolutionary army. In my view, there was no war of national liberation in Ukraine. There is actually a continuity in the army that stretches back to pre-1991 times. There was certainly no "progressive" national liberation movement in Ukraine of the sort that some Marxists (and anarchists) talked about in the period of decolonization. So yes, I am comparing two capitalist nations and their armies. The army is a respected instution in many bourgeois democracies, even within the working class. That doesn't mean revolutionaries should defend it.

2C-B wrote:
How would you provide the secure anti-war policy that doesn't lead to risk of occupation of Ukraine and violation of all human rights here?

There are no guarantees, just as there no guarantees that Ukraine will not lose a (potential) larger conflict with Russia. Even if anarchist battalions participate...

2C-B wrote:
But anyway, before you judge on me or my comrades for being "not very proletarian-oriented" move to Ukraine and raise a political movement that you talk about. Then you'll have a moral right for excommunication etc.

It's not a matter of morality, just class analysis.

But anyway, I'd be interested in the actual activities that your group is involved in. Are any of the people in or around Nihilist involved in actual fighting? Or do you concentrate more on spreading your ideas by means of articles, leaflets etc.? Do you agitate for joining the war effort?

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that your group is rather small and without any real influence on what goes down (no offense intended – this would be just like any of the groups that I was ever involved in, and many other people on these forums as well). Being "pro-war" (in the defencist sense) probably means that you are left alone by the authorities, seen either as low-risk or even beneficial (for the time). Honest question: isn't it really the more convienent alternative, as opposed to being defeatist?

Uncreative's picture
Uncreative
Offline
Joined: 11-10-09
Mar 20 2018 16:15
2C-B wrote:
Uncreative wrote:
Thats a really strange thing to read from someone who calls themself an anarchist. Out of interest, would you be pleased if the army took over the running of the country? Imagine how effectively the generals could serve the people then, wow!

Hahaha, very funny. Where do you live? Did you ever faced the militarised reaction while having no professional army?
Do you know any recipe how to survive as an individual and as an anarchist while not sitting at home and saying that everything around is fascist, authoritarian, capitalist, nationalist and nothing can be done except of pure proletarian revolution led by anarchist syndicates? Honestly, I'd like to hear about that!

I have at no point declared "everything around is fascist, authoritarian, capitalist, nationalist and nothing can be done except of pure proletarian revolution led by anarchist syndicates". I think perhaps there may be some other position, besides sitting round declaring things to be whatever, and joining the armed wing of your state and declaring it to be a progressive force thats nothing to do with the government and which serves the people and opposing any working class political activity that might disrupt the state waging war. I'm not really in a position to give you advice on what you should be doing (and who would make life or death political decisions based on what some guy said on an internet forum?!), i just thought it was really strange how deeply you support your governments military whilst still regarding yourself as anarchists.

My question about how you would feel about the military and the generals taking over running Ukraine was a serious one, in light of your belief that they are a popular force serving the people and are nothing to do with the government or state. Would you oppose this, and if so why?

And I dont have a professional army to defend me, no - I haven't got the money, for one thing. The state in my country has one though, and they of course do what the government say.

I'm in the UK for what its worth, but im fairly confident that my stance on joining the governments army is not some new thing invented by a decadent, soft Western European with no understanding of the reality of international conflict, and in fact has numerous precedents in anarchist politics since forever.

2C-B wrote:
Uncreative wrote:
Do you envisage a day that the Ukrainian government will not be saying that Russia (or someone else) is a threat to itself and to the freedom of Ukrainians, and when you may be able to resume any form of political activity that is anarchist without fear of undermining the national interest?

Actually we spotted Russian aggression and opposed it even before the legitimate government of Ukraine had established in winter-spring 2014, when the first Russian infiltrators revealed in the eastern cities.

My point was that if you're waiting for your state to no longer have any threats to it before you do anarchist politics, you're going to be waiting forever. Although your response is interesting, nonetheless.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 21 2018 12:02
jura wrote:
I think it's simply imperialism... And this is in fact the logic of traditional "anti-imperialism", but I'm quite surprised to see this coming from anarchists.

Well, it might be comfortable to live somewhere far away from imperialist war and argue about acceptability of anti-imperialist concept. But we live beside the real imperialist war and have no such privilege. We see how the human lives are depreciating within Russian-occupied territories. So there is no questions about acceptability of anti-imperialist struggle for us - there is a vital need to protect that freedom that we already have.

jura wrote:
Are you saying that you would rather be organizing against the war (and against the war effort), and that you were ready to start doing just that, but then decided not to, because there was no solidarity from anarchists on the Russian side? And that this ultimately led you to supporting the Ukrainian war effort?

We were ready to organise anti-war actions if we had the guarantees: solidarity actions in Russia, it's troops withdrawal and removing the far-right juntas in Donetsk and Luhansk. Nothing of these happened and the large war for independence had begun. So from May-June 2014 all dreams about anti-war strategy were vanished and our community understood that there is no more options except of supporting of Ukrainian military.

jura wrote:
Again, I'm not sure I understand you correctly, but above you implied that you know that a joint effort of Ukrainian and Russian anarchists or socialists against the war would make sense (so you know "what benefit" you could get), but eventually you decided against it since the Russian anarchists were not doing anything against the war.

That's right, the benefits were visible in March 2014. Beginning from June 2014 there is no such possibility. The war has started and there is no "political" mechanisms to stop it. The only political way is to push Putin's authority, but western imperialist states won't do it.

jura wrote:
Well it's not like it's "their" government. Anyone worthy of the "anarchist" label in Russia is surely against the Russian government. It seems like you simply identify the Russian population with the Russian state. That would be quite shocking for an anarchist.

If you live in an imperialist state and use citizen privileges, you are responsible for the government actions. If you are doing nothing for stop your government's crimes - it's "criminal omission". Russian anarchists could be radically against Russian government but they do nothing to stop the anti-Ukrainian propaganda (Russian state media blame Ukraine as fascist junta) and military invasion. It's like "not their business". So yes, they are also responsible for it while they live in Russia and use it's citizenship privileges.

jura wrote:
Note that the internationalists during WW1 didn't apply this "tit-for-tat" reasoning. They didn't base their internationalism on what socialists on the other side of the front were or were not doing – for them, it was a matter of principle, based on a class analysis of the war.

Did it worked? I don't see any results. Maybe it's not the best strategy if it failed once and never came back to implementation.

jura wrote:
I don't think Ukraine is a post-colonial country with a revolutionary army.

It's your right to think what you want, but I live here and see it.

jura wrote:
In my view, there was no war of national liberation in Ukraine.

In my opinion several liberation processes started in 2014. Ukrainian nation wasn't oppressed culturally because Ukrainians had their own national state since 1991, freedom for national culture and it's budget support. So those liberation processes include civil society kind growth and political dependence denial.

jura wrote:
There are no guarantees, just as there no guarantees that Ukraine will not lose a (potential) larger conflict with Russia. Even if anarchist battalions participate...

French pre-war pacifists had such illusions and we all know how it was in the end.

jura wrote:
Are any of the people in or around Nihilist involved in actual fighting? Or do you concentrate more on spreading your ideas by means of articles, leaflets etc.? Do you agitate for joining the war effort?

Nihilist editorial board consists of people who fought at the eastern front, joined territorial defence institutions or paramilitary forces, spread ideas and teach people in civic paramilitary groups. We agitate for being ready to the guerrilla warfare and conventional war if the frozen conflict in the east becomes hotter.

jura wrote:
Being "pro-war" (in the defencist sense) probably means that you are left alone by the authorities, seen either as low-risk or even beneficial (for the time). Honest question: isn't it really the more convienent alternative, as opposed to being defeatist?

Authorities disturb left radical groups in a co-working with far-rightists despite of their position in war conflict. Earlier the special services and far-right gang "c14" fabricated "evidence" of terrorist activities for local left nationalist group. Only the media efforts made this case cool. What about the defeatist position - it's rather stupid and senseless then dangerous. But even the defencist position isn't an antidote for conflicts with the state or far-right groups.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 21 2018 13:52
Uncreative wrote:
I think perhaps there may be some other position, besides sitting round declaring things to be whatever, and joining the armed wing of your state

Within this war conflict there is no other solution but supporting the regular army and irregular paramilitary forces. Only this two institutions have a force to end with Russian occupation that threatens our rights and lives.

Uncreative wrote:
declaring it to be a progressive force thats nothing to do with the government and which serves the people and opposing any working class political activity that might disrupt the state waging war.

Actually there is no working class activity that might disrupt the defensive war so I don't see any sense in theorising this.

Uncreative wrote:
i just thought it was really strange how deeply you support your governments military whilst still regarding yourself as anarchists.

Well, we could simply pretend that we have nothing to do with it and continue our syndicalist, anticlerical, pro-feminist etc. activities that are still possible just thanks to the strong defence. We all are in the same boat here in Ukraine - anarchists, liberals, people with no classified views and even nationalists. It would be hypocritically to use the privileges of peace within Ukraine and see no merits of the military defence.

Uncreative wrote:
how you would feel about the military and the generals taking over running Ukraine was a serious one, in light of your belief that they are a popular force serving the people and are nothing to do with the government or state. Would you oppose this, and if so why?

Military junta means the violation of freedom in it's most concentrated form. There was the only case when the putsch brings towards democracy and liberation (check Capitães de Abril). I'm not sure that it could be repeated without mass socialist mood in society. So I strongly oppose all of military junta ideas.

Uncreative wrote:
And I dont have a professional army to defend me, no - I haven't got the money, for one thing. The state in my country has one though, and they of course do what the government say.

You don't have any vital need for military defence in imperialist UK. You have more rights and privileges that average Ukrainian could imagine and you have no risks to loose them. And we face the risc to loose the basics.

Uncreative wrote:
My point was that if you're waiting for your state to no longer have any threats to it before you do anarchist politics, you're going to be waiting forever. Although your response is interesting, nonetheless.

We are doing anarchist politics while having military/paramilitary activities. We still have a possibility to do both of them.

Spikymike
Offline
Joined: 6-01-07
Mar 21 2018 13:23

Anarchists in Russia are a tiny minority who continue to do their best to oppose the Russian State but in the harsher conditions which 2C-B recognises and doubtless these kind of reports:
https://freedomnews.org.uk/several-tortured-anarchists-flee-russia/ will tend to reinforce 2C-B's defence of the Ukrainian States's limited democratic rights and it's military front line within the Ukrainian East and (or has it been abandoned) Crimea. But unlike Russian anarchists and some other radical opposition in Russia 2C-B provide practical and theoretical support to 'their' Ukrainian state and it's nationalist ideology in the process reinforcing the view common in Russia of a Ukrainian and 'Western' anti-Russian offensive that can only be a disservice to any current or future Russian opposition. Understandable as the immediate political and psychological pressures on anarchists and communists in the Ukraine are to join in the 'national effort', working class internationalism cannot be just for peacetime. It is sadly the case that internationalist anarchists and communists are presently too small and ineffective to alter the major course of events in these situations (anymore frankly than 2C-B) but we need to stand firm to that internationalist (or anti state nationalism) if we are to have any influence on the potential growth of an independent working class across national frontiers.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 21 2018 14:43
Spikymike wrote:
Anarchists in Russia are a tiny minority who continue to do their best to oppose the Russian State but in the harsher conditions

That tiny minority could honestly say it can't do anything to stop the invasion. But it (in mass) writes manifestos about two-front resistance and blames Ukraine as a beginner of the military conflict. Globally it legitimates Russia's military occupation of Crimea and proxy invasion in Donbass among world's left movements. Also there still is a tendency to blame on Ukrainian anarchists that argued their point of view.

Spikymike wrote:
But unlike Russian anarchists and some other radical opposition in Russia 2C-B provide practical and theoretical support to 'their' Ukrainian state and it's nationalist ideology

Sad but true - the defedist position goes alongside with civic nationalism and nothing could be done here. We don't know any other ways to support the resistance and not to feed nationalism (don't confuse civic nationalism with far-right, fascist nationalism; they're separate in Ukraine).

Spikymike wrote:
the process reinforcing the view common in Russia of a Ukrainian and 'Western' anti-Russian offensive that can only be a disservice to any current or future Russian opposition

Even Russian honest liberals stand against the Russian state and deserve it's disintegration unlike Russian leftists and most part of anarchists. Nationalist liberals/right liberals as Alexei Navalny and his party don't plan to de-occupy Crimea, empower Crimean Tatars' rights and leave Ukraine alone (he stated this many times in public speeches, talk-shows and interviews).
In other words we can't sacrifice our vital interests to help Russian opposition to take power. In addition it doesn't guarantee the withdrawal of Russian forces from Crimea and Donbass.

Spikymike wrote:
Understandable as the immediate political and psychological pressures on anarchists and communists in the Ukraine are to join in the 'national effort', working class internationalism cannot be just for peacetime.

Well, if militarised Russian reaction causes political and psychological pressure then you're right. Usually there is no mass joining to the armed forces without the fear of being oppressed by reactionary intervention.
What about working class internationalism - I think it could work only when both nations' working classes are in same conditions, have common tasks and interests. I haven't seen any working class solidarity when Ukraine was attacked - only few manifestos against Russian invasion from minor anarchist groups that even wasn't Russian.

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 21 2018 14:50

Why people leave anarchism, and how to make anarchism work

Quote:
An unusually wise and rich political philosophy of anarchism is encountering with serious simplification and dogmatization nowadays, turning into a clichéed and self-centered naivete. Most often, people «outgrow» anarchism, based on the representations of some local talking heads and hangouts. On the one hand, they realize its insolvency and inability to influence the situation, and on the other hand, they face political challenges, to which anarchism has no answers.

Most anarchists are generally more interested in how to declare something hostile, unnecessary and contrary to anarchism than to find answers to topical questions. When reality shows that this approach does not work — anarchism is ditched.

jura's picture
jura
Offline
Joined: 25-07-08
Mar 21 2018 14:54

Thanks, I think I've seen enough. Just one more thing:

2C-B wrote:
Did it worked? I don't see any results. Maybe it's not the best strategy if it failed once and never came back to implementation.

How do you think WW1 ended, if not by means of two proletarian revolutions, first in Russia, then in Germany?

2C-B
Offline
Joined: 7-05-14
Mar 21 2018 16:36
jura wrote:
How do you think WW1 ended, if not by means of two proletarian revolutions, first in Russia, then in Germany?

I think that the revolutions weren't the result of international working class concerted actions. Both Empires - German and Russian - fell under the weight of internal contradictions.

Also the western front didn't fall after the Russian imperial government dismantling in February 1917 and the war de facto stopped in march 3, 1918 - a year after. By the way, the Bolshevik government, established after November 1917, didn't wanted nor peace neither war with Germany. German imperial government was dismantled in November 1918 - in a half year after. So I wouldn't call it a plan.

Spikymike
Offline
Joined: 6-01-07
Mar 22 2018 13:08

Since 2C-B have continued providing directly and indirectly a substantial listing of their extended texts via this discussion thread perhaps I can even this up a bit by recommending as alternatives the following few links from a variety of different sources on the libcom site here:
https://libcom.org/blog/nation-or-class-31052017
https://libcom.org/library/against-nationalism
https://libcom.org/library/against-patriotism-against-nationalism-down-national-boundaries-humanaesfera
https://libcom.org/library/nation-state-nationalism-oiseau-temp-te-andr-dr
There are lots more which contest the approach of 2C-B who's tortured logic against 'anarchist dogma' just leads them back to a voluntary and enthusiastic compromise with the capitalist nation state.
And presumably 2C-B didn't attend this gathering:
https://libcom.org/news/over-walls-nationalisms-wars-statement-participants-8th-balkan-anarchist-bookfair-19092014

Uncreative's picture
Uncreative
Offline
Joined: 11-10-09
Mar 22 2018 12:36

They were on the front with Azov battalion, presumably. All Ukrainians, in it together, etc. It would be wrong for us foreigners to criticise of course.

Raja Otek's picture
Raja Otek
Offline
Joined: 26-09-15
Mar 29 2018 13:09
2C-B wrote:
Civic nationalism of liberal kind is the common idea in Ukraine, that's true.
Are you trying to teach us? Well, you can settle in Ukraine and show us, what the real radical politics is.

I have seen so many suggestions made by those so-called industrialised and western lefties, but they always, take the context of their living conditions and without the real knowledge of local context, and trying to teach others. Fuck them and they need to listen more. Long live anarchist of ukraine. Do whatever you think suits for your condition, and good for you to ask them to live in Ukraine.

From Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia!

Uncreative's picture
Uncreative
Offline
Joined: 11-10-09
Mar 29 2018 14:03
Raja Otek wrote:
2C-B wrote:
Civic nationalism of liberal kind is the common idea in Ukraine, that's true.
Are you trying to teach us? Well, you can settle in Ukraine and show us, what the real radical politics is.

I have seen so many suggestions made by those so-called industrialised and western lefties, but they always, take the context of their living conditions and without the real knowledge of local context, and trying to teach others. Fuck them and they need to listen more. Long live anarchist of ukraine. Do whatever you think suits for your condition, and good for you to ask them to live in Ukraine.

From Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia!

Yup, anarchism means nothing - join your states army, literally fight alongside actual neo-nazis for the national cause, stand for parliament, join the police, whatever. Its all local context, right? Foreigners can fuck off with their criticism, they don't know anything about the great nation of Whereverland.

Btw, I heard Putin is actually an anarchist, he's just adapted it for Russian conditions. Great to see how succesful the anarchist ideal has been over there! I have some nagging doubts, but I'll keep them to myself, as a good foreigner should.

Raja Otek's picture
Raja Otek
Offline
Joined: 26-09-15
Mar 29 2018 17:17
Uncreative wrote:
Yup, anarchism means nothing - join your states army, literally fight alongside actual neo-nazis for the national cause, stand for parliament, join the police, whatever. Its all local context, right? Foreigners can fuck off with their criticism, they don't know anything about the great nation of Whereverland.

Btw, I heard Putin is actually an anarchist, he's just adapted it for Russian conditions. Great to see how succesful the anarchist ideal has been over there! I have some nagging doubts, but I'll keep them to myself, as a good foreigner should.

Nope. anarchism means try to listen and understand other people context first, and do not inherit your imperialist forefathers narration whose trying to enforce other people to follow you and worship you as a master.

join your states army, literally fight alongside actual neo-nazis for the national cause, stand for parliament, join the police, whatever. ----- who?

Btw, i heard Queen Elizabeth is returning back all the wealth her forefathers robbed from the people of south east asia and turn herself as an anarchist. Great to see how successful the work of anarchist there! Good for you to keep it to yourself but then write it up...

Spikymike
Offline
Joined: 6-01-07
Mar 29 2018 17:13

Just to be clear the Ukrainian NIHILIST group's strategy and tactics are not shared by other anarchists in Ukraine or those of other of the adjoining industrialised countries of the ex-Eastern bloc, quite apart from the criticism made by others within the wider libertarian communist milieu.