Printed and online libertarian media - discussion

Whilst recognising the importance of using the Internet to spread ideas, to talk about just concentrating on that and dropping propaganda on the street seems incomprehensible.

It would be a big step back to stop active propaganda on the streets and seems to me to go along with the times and its zeitgeist, that is -general resignation and pessimism.

Like Serge says, cyberspace means that you can click on something and then do nothing. Exactly what is the proportion of the population using the Internet? What about al those who have no or little access, all those who are scared stiff of using a computer, or just plain and simply cannot afford to use them?

I just posted a reply to Serge Forward's post on the internal list, here it is.

This should possibly be split to a new thread since it might derail this one. Admin - done

it translated into at least one - me. I very much doubt I would've found out about the AF unless it was via the 'net, and it was conversations with pingtiao, butchersapron, charlie mowbray and others on forums (enrager as it was then and urban75) that led to me joining - same with Hackney Independent which is where I'm most active in real life. I doubt I would've joined just via the AF website, because speaking to people meant I could see what people actually thought about things, had an idea where people were located once I got to know them a bit, and that I'd be joining an active organisation with committed and interesting people in it. I'm also personally aware of a few people who have joined feds or got involved in local groups, or even formed local groups via the forums. This has been happening increasingly with the regional forums although it does take some time (took me at least a year and a half myself).

Having stuff like the workplace discussion on a public forum gives others a chance to see where we're coming from, to ask questions, etc. etc. There wasn't anything controversial in that workplace discussion (apart from smashing SolFed , and if people need to send confidential or otherwise sensitive information then the e-list is still here. The near-instant feedback provided by the forum means that rather than just 'clicking through', people are more likely to engage in discussion rather than simply reading the A&Ps, maybe realise that they live down the road from people they're talking to (which also happened to me) - but that'll only happen if the forums are being used.

To be honest I don't think this is a lot different to subscribing to Freedom, going to the bookfair once a year etc. People's involvement with stuff in their own communities and workplaces is much more important than involvement with the 'movement' which I don't think we can call the groups and individuals in the UK anyway.

Two thirds of people in Wales might have Internet access (but how regularly and what limitations are on it) but a third don't and that's an awful lot of people! And might it not be that that third would include many people who haven't got access because they can't afford it?

I dont think that printed media is unimportant, I think it is off secondary importance for a number of reasons. Its cheaper and easier to do stuff online, both in terms of resources an people. I think anything which exists in print should be online. Once stuff is online then there is the oppurtunity to put it into print, once there is a need for it, that way you save on wasting resources.

I think more people are likely to come across stuff on the internet rather than stuff in print. Even if the dont have access to the internet at home, they may do in a library or at work or in a phonebox! Whereas the chances of them finding a copy of some newspaper are far less.

I wrote something in response to something Ricard Griffin (has he stopped posting btw?) wrote in Freedom a while ago..... fuck cant find the thread anywhere. If anyone can find it that would be cool... was about the internet and anarchism and not creating divisions between the internet and "real life".

I am more likely than most to read stuff handed out in the street. I've never been given anarchist or communist leaflets. They used to try to sell the socialist worker outside my college so I used to laugh at them.

The little I do I found about through the internet.

I think newletters are valuable, they are read in a different way to web pages. If you are going to have a presence on the streets then something that is accessible is worth reading. The average person has little idea of what is happening in the world. Stay off the net for a few days and stick to the TV news and then see how much has happened while you were away.

I've thought about this one quite a lot. It's a peculiar one, because it's not as simple as 'culturally working class', or even 'marginalised groups' not using the internet.

For example I've never met an asylum seeker that doesn't use the internet, and almost all kids (working class or otherwise) use it. Equally a lot of older people, who you might not expect to use them, often do.

What's strange is that the Save Our Schools West group can pretty much conduct a lot of their business as a campaign group (bearing in mind it's a posh-ish region and most of the parents involved will tend to be middle-aged) via email. In my area, with our tenants association, it is virtually impossible to conduct business (e.g. to ciirculate minutes or something) over email as a lot of people simply haven't got it. I'd estimate that a narrow majority probably have a computer and everyone has access to computers at the library but they'd rarely use one (except maybe for consumer reasons). It's obviously not statistically relevant but my experience is that middle-aged, 'straight', working class people in my scheme don't seem to feel the need to use email, and don't tend to have email accounts. Their kids on the other hand probably couldn't imagine life without them, and marginalised groups or subcultures within that milieu tend to be a lot more keen to use email.

A lot of folk I think tend to view the internet as something akin to a glorified teletext or telex/mintel machine. I think that's a real danger and it's where the capitalists come in.