Thinking outside the box

Hi

I’m not sure if an indoor meeting is quite what the public are crying out for, it would end up like “The Late Review”. I think maybe a big brother thing would be better, Lemmy, Chomsky, Melly. Mental. I tell you, you’d need some sex to spice it up, but I can’t think of any celebrity anarchos who’re hot enough. Apart from you.

You’re right though, we should make a positive proposal to appeal to the great mass of people, in terms of both form and substance. The time to discard the role of victim and go on the attack is long overdue.

I fear, though, that the political agenda can never be made popular whilst it is ideologically indistinct from the incumbent left milieu.

Love

LR

I know I cracked this joke already, but surely AF members always thought outside and against the box!

Hi

Ho ho. Hey revol68, say you had unlimited budget, what propaganda coup would you pull?

Love

LR

if i had an unlimited budget I would wipe out working class economic insecurity.

Hi

Many a true word spoken in jest. Those debt buster adverts are brilliant, see how they present themselves as a creative solution to problems, and how you’d be better off if you get involved with them. Propaganda should be like that.

Love

LR

"does your employer treat you like shit? do you earn less than the amount you need to buy all the stuff they tell you you need? has it been far, far too long since you last smashed up a burger king with bits of 2x4? anarchism may be able to help. by consolidating all your anguish and boredom into a single, coherent hatred of capitalism we could reduce your monthly outgoings by up to 85%. and create a new world order. call us now on 0800 fuck-the-police. (your home, all your assests and your future employability are at serious risk if you so much as think about dialling)"

will that do?

Hi

I don't know comrade. What's the USP? Where's the value proposition? I can get all the aggravation I need already.

Love

LR

How about organising FOR concrete gains for the working class?

We do need to go on the offensive, I agree. But might as well organise peple to get improvements in their lives rather than preaching at them, that's what will convince people that true democracy and class struggle can both work and are desireable. It also builds organisations that give the class more power.

I've always been very impressed that Ontario Coallition Against Poverty started as a campaign to raise the level of benefits. Admittedly, with the winter there homeless people often freeze to death, so I imagine this wasn't hard to get people riled up about.

As noted in several other threads, in Glasgow the housing stuff seems to be working well.

I think the line between offensive and defensive actions is blurred and somewhat arbitrary. After all, capital is a fluid, ever-evolving system so a defensive act also represents a weakening of capital.

Hi

Absolutely. Programme first. What do you suggest, universal income? How about a campaign to write off working class debt? If it’s good enough for the third world, it’s good enough for us.

Do you think Bono and Geldof would lend their support?

Love

LR

lol I was thinking of starting out small and working up to that kind of stuff

Our goal shouldn't just be to weaken capital, we also need to create democratic organisations with broad reach within the working class. To achieve that we fight for improvements in people's lives, which is what I mean by offensive action. Too often we spend our time just trying to stop things from getting worse.

It is not confused and arbitrary. Either capital is trying to claim something it currently does not or it isn't. If you are trying to resist a claim then you are acting defensively. If you are trying to change current conditions then you are acting offensively.

A few questions.

Are you the real Ian Bone, as I know that someone has used the name on other boards who isn't actually Ian Bone

You've "heard of" Nick Heath's article. Have you actually read it?

And thirdly, wasn't this all done with 10 Days that Shook Me Undercrackers and proved to be a fiasco. They tried getting Melly (wjho owns his own fishing river) then but he declined

Having said all that I'm not against big events publicising anarchism. We tried it in 2000 , remember ( and it was a little bit more of a success than the ten days) but I'm not that impressed by pushing stars. Some of these people might call themselves anarchists, but what does that mean with people like Lemmy etc?

I read somewhere that Lemmy was a bit of a train spotter.....nowt wrong with that i suppose but hey theres limits......

Hi

Definitely. I think a shallow endorsement along the lines of “Anarchy kids, you know it makes sense” is worth much more than Bono style attempts to explain their positioning, which are just embarrassing.

The trouble with celebs is that there is there's always the risk of a downstream “Gary Glitter” effect, but then again…

Indeed.

Love

LR

Yeah, maybe he'd be up for doing a nice presentation on his massive collection of nazi regalia and elaborate on why we should all just 'get over' the nazi holocaust. Super!

Admin - Off-topic discussion split here:

http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8451

Hi

I can’t help but think that Moorcock’s audience are already adequately represented in the anarchist milieu.

Same goes for Jazz fans. I tell you though, if you could get them to write testimonials for your book you could be on to a nice little earner.

Why don’t we get Derren Brown to hypnotise the working class into being anarchist? Look into my eyes, not around my eyes, into my eyes.

Love

LR

Hi

Unfortunately, and I’m sure Ian has heard this more times than anyone, it’s not quite as simple as he’s making out.

The charge laid before the anarchist milieu is that they remain ineffective in building a mass popular movement. A lack of activity and inability to think creatively are cited as barriers to improvement. It sounds like a management consultant’s appraisal of a sales team and, in common with besuited gurus’ utterances, obscure the real problem facing the firm; that the public simply aren’t convinced by the substance of what’s on offer. No amount of thinking outside the box or trendy media projects can make up for the lack of tenable value in the prevailing anarchist proposal. To cut a long story short, no one can see how getting involved, even in a small way, with a political current is going to benefit them.

Love

LR

Lazy is right. It's not a question of presentation. Rather it's a question of the way consciousness comes about.

Ay as comrade anarcho_al said at the start what it necessary is to achieve concrete, recognizable improvements for our class and build upon that to achieve mass organisation.

if people see us achieving stuff then they'll lump in and we can 'spread the word' then - it'll be a lot more effective.

class consciousness comes from class struggle - not buying the right brand of fag lighters (being sectarian again!) - or the right paper or whatever. Outside of mass class struggle, what we're about is trying to push things forward where we can and to bring together like minded people.

Hi

Struggle has no monopoly as a source of class consciousness. I could as easily say that class consciousness can be generated by media stunts.

Not one of our approaches have shown signs of being able to push things forward. Moreover, far from bringing like minded people together, the 1000’s of people up and down the country who have been in brief contact with the anarchist movement and remain covert supporters are left increasingly isolated by a mileu that has looked for some time more like the SWP’s autistic cousin than the torch bearers of working class autonomy.

Love

LR

ahh the return of the stuntists!

fucking amazing!

And Lazy it's the SWP who like to co opt anyone cunt slightly famous.

This is a very true and a easy thing to say but doesn't really explain much. I mean the fact that I'm posting this instead of reading a chapter on 'compensating wage differentials' (what I'm supposed to be doing) could be considered class struggle. As could anything I do to escape the imposition of value.

If you are being more specific and talking about organised class struggle, when people struggle collectively. Well then you're wrong. Class consciousness can come form collective struggle, but not always. I'd barter most class conscious people under 40 in Ireland, and I'd imagine Britain, became class conscious outside of struggle. In other words by thinking about things themselves and/or by being exposed to the idea of 'class'.

Hi

I wouldn't feel unduly persecuted if I were you. I haven't seen any viable scorn fired in your direction. Let's get on with it then, what is it you would have us do?

Love

LR

Yes and frankly that's the problem! WTF does it matter if someone is 'class conscious' or not if their idea of taking action to redress the balance is individualistic? There are lots of relatively class conscious people on my estate - it doesn't mean that any of them are prepared to do anything beyond purely individualistic activities.

I think this is a non-sequitur.

Anarchist propaganda has value in itself, that's why I'm involved with libcom. Ian I say go for it. What are you looking for - approval, or people to do the donkey work, or what?