tides are changing ... ?

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Joseph Kay

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Oct 8 2006 09:58

ok, how about a bit of sunday morning optimism, if you'll humour me.

the way 'we' (as in the prevailing politics of the boards) see things, class struggle is an irreducible manifestation of capitalism, so even when working class struggle falls off, capital's attacks continue. at some point people will start pushing back ... (elementary really)

so, there's been an upsurge in mass protests against nhs cuts recently which looks like just the beginning, and also a few industrial actions by the already or about-to-be outsourced elements of the NHS (whipps cross, nhs logistics ...) more minorly, there's the bugged bin tax thing that seeks to further shift the cost of pointless production (or rather production for profit, not need i.e. gratuitous packaging etc) onto workers. organisers of the anti-nhs cuts demos are talking up poll tax comparisons already, so are we seeing the seeds of a working class fightback?

the bosses can't afford our health? we can't afford theirs!

john

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Oct 8 2006 10:14

not sure about this. the form that struggle takes is crucial - i.e. it needs to avoid the social democratic trap (professional trade unions, representative "socialist" parties, welfare state, etc.) in order to avoid the same problems as in the past.

Most of these protests don't seem to transcend these old forms of class struggle to any great extent - see the recent Labour Party Conference decision (pushed by the professional trade unions) to oppose any further privatisation/outsourcing of the NHS. This is, I think, still the main way that people envisage some kind of resistance to the advance of capital. For this reason I'm not quite so optimistic.

Joseph Kay

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Oct 8 2006 10:34

i completely agree about the form of the struggle. but struggles are transformed by their participants who are transformed by their struggles. what i mean is that as more people get involved with things it gets harder for the politicos (anarchists included) to control things, which is what i believe happened with the poll tax (i was only a kid at the time).

generally people reject unions, lobbying, party politics etc not when their history is pointed out or a comprehensive ultra-left critique is presented, but then they become concrete obstacles to a real struggle - those drawn to the social democratic means are drawn there because they want to struggle effectively and win, when the social democrats offer their standard mealy-mouthed compromises and sell-outs, people will look elsewhere.

i think the desire to struggle is positive in itself, and isn't pre-recuperated, however likely it looks that there'll be just another left-of-capital set piece with some token strikes and demos followed by capitulation.

Mike Harman

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Joined: 7-02-06

Oct 8 2006 10:42

I'm spending too much time on here - saw "titles are changing?" at first and thought it was a bug with the site roll eyes

I'm in two minds about this. On one hand there seems to be a bit more industrial action, and it's action that's a bit more interesting: extended rather than single days, bigger numbers, a few unofficial walk outs here and there.

On the other it's gone from very little to not a lot, and there's no sign of momentum or connection between those struggles, so it's difficult to tell if we're just seeing a pattern because we're looking long enough.

Some of those NHS marches seem to have been pretty big, at least relative to the size of the places they're happening in. There's a march from the South Bank (right in)to Parliament on first Novembe,r partly organised by the National Pensioners' Convention (hence lee-way with route), although it's on a Wednesday so don't forsee a massive turnout. Only thing I can see about it though is from the socialist party.

john wrote:

not sure about this. the form that struggle takes is crucial - i.e. it needs to avoid the social democratic trap (professional trade unions, representative "socialist" parties, welfare state, etc.) in order to avoid the same problems as in the past.
Most of these protests don't seem to transcend these old forms of class struggle to any great extent

I think that's a slightly different question to the one JK's raising - those elements will always attempt to contain/piggy back on/control any kind of increase in struggle, this is more whether there's an increase at all. Some of these things though are empty shells created by unions or trot parties which they try to divert people into - as a reaction to their increasing marginalisation - would be intersting to know where the impetus for all the NHS marches is coming from.

Lazy Riser

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Joined: 6-05-05

Oct 8 2006 11:14

Quote:

there's the bugged bin tax thing that seeks to further shift the cost of pointless production (or rather production for profit, not need i.e. gratuitous packaging etc)

For the love of man JK, people’s wish for stuff that looks good for its own sake is as valid as their wish for Quorn burgers for nutritional purposes. This line of reasoning reveals, once again, that communists’ ideas of “production for need” means Mao Suits and the other products of grey “state” monopoly. I mean, presumably you’ll ban people from gratuitously wasting resources on writing their own books, painting their own pictures and printing their own T-Shirts. What self-identified communists seem to fail to understand is that just because their ideology casts a given desire as trivial or fickle, it does not make it wrong. And as for the bin tax itself, if it’s sold as a council tax discount to people who throw way less, it’ll be quite popular. Whilst we’re at, examining how a local council would go about introducing (or have it’s contractors introduce) such a scheme shows how easy it would be to block if the will of the people was genuinely against it. Before joining in with the Daily Mail style histrionics on this-or-that stealth tax, care must be taken to see who’s agenda you’re unwittingly fuelling.

Quote:

organisers of the anti-nhs cuts demos are talking up poll tax comparisons already, so are we seeing the seeds of a working class fightback?

Well if we are, it looks more like 1979 than 1990, so I’d expect Cameron will be the main beneficiary. Say we ramp up class conflict and, despite the modern requirement for Unions to ballot their members, strike induced misery to 1979 levels, what then? Vote Tory?

Love

Joseph Kay

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Oct 8 2006 11:28

lazy. i'm not being (very) rude, but i'm going to ignore your attempts to argue the toss over a straw man communism once more, particularly because the whole point of the superluous packaging example is people are organising against it, don't want it, and have to pay for it twice (to buy it and to throw it away).

Lazy Riser

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Oct 8 2006 11:36

What you're ignoring, JK, is the fact that, as in 1979, the “fightback” as currently constituted will concretise and accelerate the reactionary agendas it's ostensibly against.

Love

Mike Harman

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Oct 8 2006 13:09

Except that the tories are still unelectable and their policies are no more right wing than Labour's any more (or more correctly vice versa). What you might see if they get in is some ineffectual left-splits in Labour which try to re-cosy up to the unions again.

Quote:

And as for the bin tax itself, if it’s sold as a council tax discount to people who throw way less, it’ll be quite popular.

I don't think that'll be possible with council tax rises year on year, and even if they try it, I don't think anyone will believe it.

Lazy Riser

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Oct 8 2006 14:26

Quote:

Except that the tories are still unelectable

You wait until they start offering lump sums in exchange for cashing in final salary pensions. If the tactical vote unwinds next election to the extent it did in the last, they'll be in.

Quote:

And as for the bin tax itself, if it’s sold as a council tax discount to people who throw way less, it’ll be quite popular.

Quote:

I don't think that'll be possible with council tax rises year on year, and even if they try it, I don't think anyone will believe it.

Fair enough. I think we spend about £2 a month per household on rubbish collection, the smart-bin is more likely to be used to help plan collection strategies for outsourced services than go for a water-meter style charging regime. The council tax level is set statutorily anyway, and I'm not sure local councils have got the latitude to raise tax independently. I suppose they could charge for overweight or bulky items, in fact I think they already do.

Love

#10

john

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Oct 8 2006 17:07

Lazy Riser wrote:

people’s wish for stuff that looks good for its own sake is as valid as their wish for Quorn burgers for nutritional purposes.

you have a rather benign view of marketing techniques - personally I think it's more about attempting to make less look more, with people not happy with the effect of the packaging but rather ultimately dissapointed when they get home to find they bought a load of crap that looked good on the wrapper