Unghettoizing Anarchism

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severin
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Dec 1 2007 15:40
revol68 wrote:
severin wrote:
my heart bleeds.

you don't think working class kids go to uni, you don't think people leave uni and end up in working class jobs?

Are you mistaking a chip on your shoulder for a class analysis?

No, I have absolutely no beef with poor kids who go to community college to get some skills and make a better life. I just have no pity for middle class kids who can't cash in on their degrees, honestly, in historical terms, the shrinking of the middle class is a good thing. I merely question the motives and the longevity of such creatures when it comes to revolutionary activity. It would be foolery to do otherwise, history has borne this out a thousand times.

tastybrain
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Dec 1 2007 17:12
severin wrote:
Anarchism is not a popular movement precisely because the vast majority of both 'workerist' and 'lifestyleist' anarchists come from relatively privileged backgrounds, are of the educated middle class, and simply can't relate to the the experiences of working class people, nor do they wish to. A paternalistic attitude prevails where any real sense of common cause is lacking.

-------

Your impression is correct but ideological anarchism is just as detached, as isolate, and ultimately as elitist as is the lifestyleist sort.

I'll have to take your word for it, at least in terms of class backgrounds, since I don't actually have any contact with the self-identified "anarchist movement" and that type of thing is something that you have to have personal interaction with "the movement" to get an impression of. When it comes to attitude though, I don't detect a lot of paternalism or elitism among the class struggle wing of anarchism, except some annoying disdain for anyone who doesn't understand complex rhetoric or know the specialized lexicon they use. (definitely a problem)

severin wrote:
Develop a language and a rhetorical style that is free of jawbreakers and focuses on the fundamental concepts while tapping in to people's frustrations and hopes. If you are a middle class collegiate, you will find this difficult, because most working class people will 'wish they had your problems'. Develop forums in the real world, films, presentations, that focus on the working class struggles in your area's history. Involve people on an emotional level.

This sounds pretty sensible.

severin wrote:
Marx actually explains it well: when the petit-bourgeious find themselves being proletarianized, they make fake alliances with the working class in order to protect their interests. Middle class kids feel they are being 'proletarianized' when daddy doesnt buy them the car they want, or their credit card bills get out of hand.

And Anarchism is the fake alliance with the sexiest brand name. These are the same people who believe that 'in a socialist society, it will be ok if some people have more wealth than others.....'..themselves of course. I'm sure you've heard that sort of bullshit before.

Very few middle to upper middle class kids ever lose their sense of 'entitlement.' That's why you don't see groups like the IWW organizing many factories or fields anymore because a bunch of faux-radical college kids aren't going to salt in a workplace that will pay them so poorly, after all, that work has to be left to uneducated people. It's kind of like diehard Republican youth who support the war but when asked why they didn't volunteer...they claim that they are 'overqualified'. It is exactly the same thing in fact, if not more cowardly. Which is why syndicalism will fail, because these kids can't come anywhere near getting a foothold in essential industries.

Actually, I think the reason the IWW isn't organizing "factories and fields" anymore is because that kind of work is the minority in the US and the few working class people who still have factory jobs tend to make a very decent living thanks to over a century of struggle in that area. It actually makes more sense to organize service sector workers, as they are paid worse and largely unorganized. I guarantee you that someone working at Sears makes less then someone in a factory.

I assume you don't regard Andrew Carnegie working class despite his impoverished background? If that's true why would you regard someone formerly "middle class" (whatever that means) who has fallen to the level of working class differently then someone born into poverty? People can and do fall from the middle class. It's happening more and more (read Barbara Ehrenreich’s "Bait And Switched" for a well written account of white collar unemployment and downward mobility.)

Anyway, define what you mean by “middle class”. I was under the impression that it didn’t exist. Plenty of working people call themselves middle class and maintain a middle class image as a status symbol.

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Steven.
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Dec 1 2007 17:15
tastybrain wrote:
Anyway, define what you mean by “middle class”. I was under the impression that it didn’t exist. Plenty of working people call themselves middle class and maintain a middle class image as a status symbol.

he's just got a chip on his shoulder, he sounds like some american guilty middle class white kid.

with this though:

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I don't detect a lot of paternalism or elitism among the class struggle wing of anarchism, except some annoying disdain for anyone who doesn't understand complex rhetoric or know the specialized lexicon they use. (definitely a problem)

Which people are you referring to here?

Carousel
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Dec 1 2007 17:29
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I don't agree - I think Thatcher does though

Thatcher was a Benthemite, so no. I wouldn’t be so hung up on individualism if I were you, hark at Devrim…

Devrim wrote:
Many working class families have at least one member who works for the state. A victory in that sector would be a victory for every worker in the country.

An appeal to family-values. A Thatcherite sell-to-the-individual if ever I saw one. It would seem anarchists are ghettoised by the values they hold so dear.

severin
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Dec 1 2007 17:29
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Actually, I think the reason the IWW isn't organizing "factories and fields" anymore is because that kind of work is the minority in the US and the few working class people who still have factory jobs tend to make a very decent living thanks to over a century of struggle in that area. It actually makes more sense to organize service sector workers, as they are paid worse and largely unorganized. I guarantee you that someone working at Sears makes less then someone in a factory.

Most agricultural workers in America are immigrants, are paid shit and have absolutely no rights under the law. Factory workers may tend to get a better hourly wage in some contexts but the level of immiseration is overwhelming. Organizing service sectors is important in an american economy which relies on imports but....if the raw materials that fuel those service sectors aren't made available, if the workers who provide those raw materials are not organized, then....where do ya go....the industrial chain is broken. Frankly in a revolutionary society I don't think people will find themselves being 'served' or wanting to 'serve' anything or anyone. The social divide should be eliminated as much as possible.

To me, the middle class is a cancer. I mean basically upper middle class here. Um most of what passes for middle class in America is basically working class with a decent line of credit. They don't actually own anything and are in debt their whole lives, but like to distance themselves from the rest of the working class. In any event the upper middle class expedite the exploitation of the workers, that is their role. Whether it be some pie card unionist or a small capitalist or what have ye.

severin
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Dec 1 2007 17:34
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he's just got a chip on his shoulder, he sounds like some american guilty middle class white kid.

No, in fact i come from a first squalidly poor, then vaguely lower- mid class, uneducated family and have lived below the poverty line my whole life. Don't know why you would make such an insolent assumption. Some of us peasants read books too. An apology is in order I believe.

severin
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Dec 2 2007 06:20

......and, to clarify...revolutions are not made by 'satisfied' people. they are made by people with massive 'chips on their shoulders'. the entire working class of america has a fucking chip on its shoulder right now, sir. its just a matter of channeling that anger. towards the obtainment of concrete ends. not through a veil of abstractions.

i believe i can say from a vast amount of experience that americans are pretty much totally fed up with 'politics' of any kind and rightfully see most ideological conformity as horseshit... and that revolutionaries must present workers with a solid set of programs designed to demonstrate that it is possible, through solidarity and direct action, for the working class to provide for itself what 'politics' cannot: health care, housing, the democratic workplace, solutions to environmental crises etc....

the formulation of such programs requires study, discussion, practical experience and experimentation, all of the 'political' insight in the world won't make it possible. the execution of said programs, as a supersession of state power and in defiance of all of the social relations that reinforce capital's grip on human life- is the revolution itself, once there is a critical mass assembled behind it.

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Devrim
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Dec 2 2007 08:03
MJ wrote:
Did you put "ran away" in quotes because you're quoting someone? Or just to make it look like you're quoting someone?

Yes, I think that he is quoting me. I am not exactly sure what was said in the argument, but basically I said that running away was a class response, and I was then attacked, insulted, and accused of personal cowardice for it.
Devrim

tastybrain
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Dec 3 2007 15:27
John. wrote:
Which people are you referring to here?

I'm not really reffering to anyone on Libcom, I've just met a few ultra-intellectual class struggle anarchists who are constantly talking about [insert 19th century anarchist/communist theorist here]'s theory of x and y and it gets irritating. Again, I haven't come into contact with too many self identified class struggle anarchists so this probably doesn't reflect the movement as a whole.

severin wrote:
Most agricultural workers in America are immigrants, are paid shit and have absolutely no rights under the law.

I'm aware of the horrible conditions of agricultural workers and you're right, more work needs to be done in that area. However, unionizing illegal immigrants is very challenging because of the language barrier, high turnover rate, wariness, etc. Until these workers are organized, they will face terrible exploitation and be used by the capitalists to drive down wages for the rest of the working class in the same way Chinese workers were used in the 19th century. .

severin wrote:
Factory workers may tend to get a better hourly wage in some contexts bcut the level of immiseration is overwhelming.

Sorry, I haven't read much Marx. What does "immiseration" mean? Factory jobs in the US tend to be stable, relatively high paying, and provide good benefits. That's why most of them are moving to places were wages are lower.

severin wrote:
Organizing service sectors is important in an american economy which relies on imports but....if the raw materials that fuel those service sectors aren't made available, if the workers who provide those raw materials are not organized, then....where do ya go....the industrial hain is broken. Frankly in a revolutionary society I don't think people will find themselves being 'served' or wanting to 'serve' anything or anyone. The social divide should be eliminated as much as possible.

I'm a little confused. Are you talking about a post-revolutionary society? Of course no one would want to be a burger flipper or a waitress, just like no one will want to work ten hour shifts in a hot, dangerous factory. That doesn't change the fact that service sectory workers need to become revolutionary.

severin wrote:
because a bunch of faux-radical college kids aren't going to salt in a workplace that will pay them so poorly, after all, that work has to be left to uneducated people. It's kind of like diehard Republican youth who support the war but when asked why they didn't volunteer...they claim that they are 'overqualified'.
severin wrote:
I just have no pity for middle class kids who can't cash in on their degrees,

So you think "faux radical college kids" are hypocrites unless they work in factories and fields, but at the same time you have no pity for them unless they take advantage of their privelage?

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Steven.
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Dec 3 2007 15:32
tastybrain wrote:
John. wrote:
Which people are you referring to here?

I'm not really reffering to anyone on Libcom, I've just met a few ultra-intellectual class struggle anarchists who are constantly talking about [insert 19th century anarchist/communist theorist here]'s theory of x and y and it gets irritating. Again, I haven't come into contact with too many self identified class struggle anarchists so this probably doesn't reflect the movement as a whole.

ok cool that's fair enough, i thought maybe you were saying on here, which I'd disagree with. Then again I still find it kinda bizarre because I've never met any anarchists like that at all, and I've met hundreds. Were they in a particular group or something?

severin
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Dec 3 2007 15:44

What i am saying, tastybrain, is that if the express purpose of syndicalist organizing is to establish a framework for the democratic takeover of industry by the working class, then syndicalists have to focus on organizing in the industries which are most essential. The point of production. Agriculture is actually the most important because uh...humans need food.

Without agriculture there is no service industry. So, if there is no organizing within those industries (which there is, only not on the part of the avowed 'revolutionary' unions), there will be no basis for distribution in a revolutionary situation. Without organizing in distribution, then there will be no.....you get it, it's just common sense.

It's obvious i'm a hater when it comes to the middle class, but I have my reasons.

severin
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Dec 3 2007 15:45

d.p.

tastybrain
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Dec 3 2007 15:49
Mike Harman wrote:
I don't see the revolutionary process as 'more and more people decide they're anarchist, then one day decide to make a revolution when they tip over 50 or 70%' or whatever. What tends to happen in all these cases is a minority is active in these upheavals on both sides, and the majority carries on day to day activity, with passive support (or opposition) being very important of course.

Yes, but I think consciousness does play a significant role. Periods of intense class struggle do not guarantee a revolution; they can also lead to fascism, reform, etc. I think it's important that revolutionary ideas take hold.

Mike Harman wrote:
Quote:
In my opinion, even though we are in a period of low class struggle, there are still vast feelings of anger, resentment, and dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs among the working classes. These feelings are potentially very fertile ground for anarchism.

And also for nationalism, mysticism, conspiracy theories, pyramid schemes etc. etc. If you treat 'anarchism' as simply an ideological competitor in the marketplace of disaffected proletarians then I think you've already lost. Not to say we shouldn't argue against these things, but people who hold nationalist, religious and various other ideas are quite capable of going on strike and everything else, same as anarchists have shown themselves quite capable of telling people to go back to work

I agree that people who hold nationalist or religious ideas are capable of participating in class struggle, but when these ideas have a large following among the proletariat they tend to retard class conflict. Religion, bigotry, and nationalism exist to direct the anger of the working class away from their real enemies and on to hapless scapegoats, as well as to encourage a posture of submission and servility. I'm not saying that when everyone adopts anarchism as their ideology of choice we will automatically reach revolution, but it certainly can't hurt.

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OliverTwister
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Dec 3 2007 18:44

.

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anarcho-punk
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Dec 14 2007 12:19

once you begin to attempt to ORGANISE anarchy it ceases to be true or anarchy at all. the aim of anarchy, for me, is a break from traditional conservative values and to create a society in which everyone is free to act in a way which makes them happy. i am sure that others feel differently but if one person attempts to impose thier view of anarchy on others it ceases to have any impact because it stops being shocking and becomes another beuracratic group spoiled by infighting and inter-personal politics. anarchy, in the strictest sense of the word, is about a lack of control from one body, a truly democratic system, but by having a "board" you remove the anarchy from the anarchist movement. we are each responsible for the loss of impact of the anarchist movement and the only way to regain it is to radicalise it however the only reaction that would cause would be polarisation from the general population so the future of anarchy is unclear.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Dec 14 2007 12:25

LOL @ anarcho-punk

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Joseph Kay
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Dec 14 2007 12:25

grin

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Steven.
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Dec 14 2007 12:28

yeah anarcho-punk you're an idiot, sorry.

ftony
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Dec 14 2007 12:53
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once you begin to attempt to ORGANISE anarchy it ceases to be true or anarchy at all

wow, that is amazing. i heart anarcho-punk 4 eva IDFT.

Vaneigemappreci...
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Dec 14 2007 14:19

if you enjoy having a fence post stuck up your arse then you are anarchy incarnate

tastybrain
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Dec 16 2007 17:28
anarcho-punk wrote:
it ceases to have any impact because it stops being shocking and becomes another beuracratic group

Yeah, so I guess anything "shocking" is anarchist... Marilyn Manson 4ver!!!!111111

tastybrain
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Dec 16 2007 17:32
severin wrote:
What i am saying, tastybrain, is that if the express purpose of syndicalist organizing is to establish a framework for the democratic takeover of industry by the working class, then syndicalists have to focus on organizing in the industries which are most essential. The point of production. Agriculture is actually the most important because uh...humans need food.

Without agriculture there is no service industry. So, if there is no organizing within those industries (which there is, only not on the part of the avowed 'revolutionary' unions), there will be no basis for distribution in a revolutionary situation. Without organizing in distribution, then there will be no.....you get it, it's just common sense.

It's obvious i'm a hater when it comes to the middle class, but I have my reasons.

Ok, I get what you're saying now.

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Dec 18 2007 11:48

I am not saying that anything "shocking" is anarchy, I am saying that for anarchy to work as a means of protest or firm anti-statist movement it needs to avoid becoming a beurocratic group whose antics are yawned away by the boeugoise. The shock is needed to stop the descent into beurocracy.

I would also appreciate it if you did not leap to conclusions about my taste in music, as my username suggests, I prefer punk music from the early period of the late sixties and early seventies to the pretentious hate- laden prancings of Marilyn Manson. I find his music somewhat directionless and altogether aimless whereas punk reflects a political view which i find to be agreeable. Please in future keep this discussion at the elevated level that i have come to expect from this site.

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Dec 18 2007 11:52
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wow, that is amazing. i heart anarcho-punk 4 eva IDFT.

are you trying to be ironic or moronic.

This behavoir demeans the quality of political discussion which is to be found on this site and can be offensive. If you are truly "heart" me because of one post I suggest that you seek pyschiatric help because you form attachments too fast toa person you have never met based on the evidence of one post in a forum.

Carousel
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Dec 18 2007 11:59
Quote:
for anarchy to work as a means of protest or firm anti-statist movement it needs to avoid becoming a beurocratic group

Protest is bureaucracy.

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The shock is needed to stop the descent into beurocracy.

On the contrary, those most “shocked” are the first to fall into bureaucracy’s deadly embrace.

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antics are yawned away by the boeugoise.

Let them yawn, their opinion is irrelevant.

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I suggest that you seek pyschiatric help

The Mass Psychology of Fascism...
http://www.whale.to/b/reich.pdf

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Dec 18 2007 12:08
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On the contrary, those most “shocked” are the first to fall into bureaucracy’s deadly embrace

but those most shocked are those who operate within a bureuacratic system to begin with so they either retreat further within thier system or fight you and become opposition soldiers who may begin to turn to your side.

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Let them yawn, their opinion is irrelevant.

I do agree broadly but it is them who we need to force into our way of life so it is them we need to shock

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Steven.
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Dec 18 2007 12:09

oh dear god roll eyes

Carousel
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Dec 18 2007 12:18
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we need to shock

We don't need to shock 'em, we need to get 'em sexy. Don’t tell me you haven’t noticed how the bureaucracy dissolves when you’re bollock deep in the love of your life.

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thugarchist
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Dec 18 2007 12:49

This discussion is fucking awesome.

dave c
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Dec 18 2007 14:00

circle A Shock'em, get 'em sexy!
Unghettoize anarchism! circle A