Fascist threat in Liverpool

"A bad day for republicanism": who cares?

RFB = Republican Flute Band.
Defending republicanism is not anti-fascism, whether or not you think loyalists are fascists and Irish Patriots have got fuck all to do with internationalism.
Not too pleased to see that enough people cared to actually oppose this bullshit, I thought either side could only be bothered in Scotland or NI.

I'm all for action against fascism, I don't care if they are defending goddamned Pro-welfare-state people in the process. These are fascists, it's like beating up Klan members. If the Left has anything to sustain them, it should be hate.

Since we can't seem to find the time to like each other, let's all just hate the fascist bastards and (try to) kick their asses.

this is admin: no flaming

Who do you think?

hmm Republicans?

Ambrose, getting in pointless street fights with fascists serves no purpose other than to expose militants to physical danger, risk of arrest/imprisonment, and getting into tit for tat revenge attacks. All totally divorced from the working class and our everyday lives.

That wasn't the intent. The tone I had in my head was sarcastic lol. Misunderstanding from web-based chat. Not the first time it's got me into trouble.

Logical appeal = It is senseless and pointless violence, but I'm young. Most young people join the military. I'd prefer to beat up fascists. There aren't many where I'm at so I'm stuck voicing support for those who can, in this case the 20 who showed up.

Emotional appeal = When somebody gives me a good shove, I'm not going to laugh it off. I'm going to return with a punch. People are all different, react differently, handle things differently. That's how I prefer to handle things.

Hey, don't worry you didn't flame anyone, radical graffiti did, which was removed.

I wouldn't say that most young people join the military - hardly anyone does any more, which has led to big recruitment problems. But I understand your sentiment. However, antifa stuff even in the UK has got a bunch of people into serious legal trouble, and it wasn't worth it at all

That's understandable. I wouldn't want to go out looking for trouble if I didn't expect to find someone waiting at home.

Antifa was an organisation, but the legal problems didn't result from this, they resulted from the activity.

Greenpeace do do illegal activism in their own name, that's what they are known for. Although they don't do as much of it as they used to. See this photo for example:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/giona/223094087/

Nice! The moral here seems to be don't go looking for trouble unless you expect to find it. People forget trouble isn't just the fight, but the shit after as well.

I generally don't care about fascism but....

If Gikder or Daymer had one of their marches in Hackney attacked by fascists to the point that they were unable to march I would care about that. (For those that don't know, Gikder and Daymer are the two main Turkish & Kurdish Stalinist groups in Hackney.) Now I'm not a stalinist, but I think left wing immigrant political groups being attacked by fascists is a problem for the entire left.*

I know a lot of people on here hate irish republicanism, hence the analogy.

*Maybe not the largest problem we face but still slightly worrying.

I think stevens being glibbly complacent from his inner london bubble tbh. if you live in places like oldham, parts of the north east, dagenham, eltham, thurrock/grays, burnley and perhaps now linerpool and so on, then you'd know that the fash are confident and would pose a very real ipotential physical menace to your attempts at organsing any stalls and demos.

The fash often pick politically easy targets (islamic fundies, paedos, irish republicanism) its how their lowest common denominator bollocks works. And yeah opposing them is always messy*, but ignore them when they're building up confidence, and they'll obviously be gunning for ''the left'' next if they aren't doing so a bit already.

We're not trots, we don't have some mental historical determinist approach that thinks the fash will become a mass movement or take power, because thats obviously gibberish. They're just a nuisance and a low level menace, but even so we should take the physical threat they pose seriously. That doesn't mean obsessing over it, or organising physical anti-fascism in the absence of commuity organisation, both would be dead ends, but it does mean not just ignoring the problem.

^personally i'm waiting for liverpool comrades reports on it all in this case

Realistically if daymer couldn't defend itself then I doubt any anarchist group could realistically help.
If daymer's march was for the community or part of mayday etc then it would be an attack on us as a class so they would need support. If their Beria Balaika Brigade was prevented from celebrating Stalin day by Maoists then while I'd be worried about the confidence of the opponents I'd not defend it.

I always thought Daymer were more social democratic than Stalinist?

I think the roots are stalinist but in Haringey at least they have always seemed more interested in solidarity and working class militancy than anything else.

it is not a question of supporting irish nationalists - obviously, most people here are internationalists - but of opposing fascists. they were edl, bnp, cxf, casuals, infidels and were surprised themselves at how many people they pulled out. there needs to be more co-ordination between antifascists. the fash are overjoyed with yesterdays 'result' but it may well be a 1 off. the groups usually cant stand each other.

We need to be concerned about the fash getting into the habit of attacking left groups because we're next on that list and are in no position to defend ourselves on our own. Whether the victims in Liverpool were Republican or not is pretty irrelevant in that sense tbh.

we do need to be concerned. theres a thread on this on urban that says the same thing. the fash have been on the backfoot and taken a lot of nickings recently but this is a confidence boost and they may increase numbers for hyde as well as more unco-ordinated hits on easy targets. i mean they attacked the fucken morning star sellers the other week in scotland! manc antifascists are a bit more numerous but they still need to watch out!

The only way people on here are going to take this seriously is when a Sol Fed meeting gets turned over by EDL/NWI - then maybe you will at least entertain the thought that no amount of work place activity or community politics is going to stop this fascist problem.

And Steven - its a very ultra-leftist position you take. I mean lets look strategically here - NWi/EDL began by attacking militant Islam, then Islam, then Mosques, then socialists/UAF/anarchist/anti-cuts protestors, then trade unionists, now irish republicans - the narrative here is anything they see as anti-British Establishment.

I have stewarded for many republican events not because I am a fan of republicanism but because I think politically that is not a good idea that we get in a position where fascists say who and who shouldn't have a meeting, or who should or who shouldn't have a march. Thats not to say we should defend the Islamists nuts or other reactionaries but when one attack builds confidence for another - as has been said - we should attack back before its too late.

I do. Obviously most of us on here, including myself don't agree with Irish Republicanism. But the Fash will take confidence from this. They will feel bolder to attack other soft targets and that includes anarchist groups etc. They will try and reclaim the streets and in some places if this is a trend it could be difficult holding a stall etc without getting trouble. Also of note, yesterday they attacked Irish pubs etc and didn't ask for proof that the folk inside were PIRA and 32 supporters etc.

Aye sorry didn't read this before I chipped in.

Raw I'm in Solfed and one of several SF members on this very thread who are saying it should be taken seriously. Much as I agree with you that there's some complacency knocking around, it's wrong and very uncomradely to talk in terms of SF being some kind of blocking influence or being collectively uninterested - most Locals actively encourage members to get involved in anti-fascist activity and work with anti-fascist groups. I'm not sure what you'd expect us to do beyond that?

Dear Rob,

it was in reference to the EDL whitechapel thread - many SolFed members said they do not prioritise anti-fascism ( as if that is what was being asked ) - and hence said they did not see the need to publicly mobilise for it.

My initial point stands, no good talking about it, action speaks louder.

He says, goading people to prove their antifascist credentials on a website.

Not at all. Maybe turning up to an anarchist co-ordination meeting to support the local population of whitechapel against a 1,000 fascists maybe a good start. Just saying...