Class War was essentially a marketing concept of the '80s - a kind of anarcho-Saatchi and Saatcchi
surely you meant anarcho-burberry and burberry
in a Chav sense lazy? 
surely you meant anarcho-burberry and burberry
Wasn't Burberry the label of choice for Sloane Rangers in the 80s??
I was thinking more on the lines of the label being chavs in 2000
sorry alan who was the sloane rangers?
I was thinking more on the lines of the label being chavs in 2000
The quote "anarcho Saatchi and Saatchi" is lifted from an Aufheben article which relates to CWF's image at the time of their inception in the 80s.
sorry alan who was the sloane rangers?
Cheers alan.....
........and i think the AF are a bunch of lovely people.
This thread does seem to have attracted more than its fair share of loons but there's still been some interesting stuff. Here's some of my thoughts on various posts:
- I'm not convinced by the argument that not been connected to a federation is better for anarchist publications. Particularly as Freedom still seems desperately short of people...
- And I still think freebies are better than newspapers for anarchist propaganda. Does any real street selling of anarchist papers or magazines really happen at the moment?
- I agree that anarchist organisations are very conservative. But seeing as we're anarchists we can only make major changes if the whole organisation agrees to it (or at least a good majority). But on the plus side we do have a lot of local autonomy.
- I also quite like the idea that anarchist unity is something we should always be working for. Doesn't look too promising at the moment though! I don't think existing organisations dissolving would help either, the majority of Class War that voted to dissolve didn't achive much (at least as far as I can see).
- There are problems with the IWW but I'm not neccesarily against having different organisations for different areas of struggle. And anyway, I think it would be more problematic saying to my that I can only organise something with them if they agree to the principles of revolutionary syndicalism first!
Admin - Trolling and "censorship" gangster discussion split here:
Lazy Riser wrote:
HiJohn., those are really boring. I mean, it's preaching to the choir.
Love
LR
No it isn't. One of the ways the boss class controls the working class is by erazing out our history as if it never existed. In this way, it ensures that those involved in current struggles can never learn from what has gone on before, thus leaving us all at a disadvantage. So one of the things the AF does is to try and ensure that our history is not airbrushed out.
You personally may not like those kind of articles but that's another matter.
Having said that, the AF does not preoccupy itself with historical articles and ignore the present day.
Remember, even before the Poll Tax struggle took off outside of Scotland, the ACF were the first organisation of any persuasion to publish a pamphlet on the Poll Tax. We also organised the first ever anti-poll tax meetings in London.
This kind of activity continues today with our pamphlet on ID cards.
Erm, I like history loads but the AF certainly doesn't excel in British working class history, you know the sort by Samuel, Hill, Linebaugh, Thompson etc. and for me it is working class history that matters. Just to show; a history of 20 years of the ACF/AF would be boring, but the past 20 years class struggle entirely different.
Maybe you publish the odd pamphlet (in what sense I meant 'odd' is up to you to decide 
) but I prefer effective propaganda that gets in the lifeblood of working class movements anyday to that, and you have NEVER published ANY of that... 
Maybe you publish the odd pamphlet (in what sense I meant 'odd' is up to you to decide
Unlike you right?
*Yawn*
gangster wrote:
Maybe you publish the odd pamphlet (in what sense I meant 'odd' is up to you to decideUnlike you right?
*Yawn*
Is it really my responsibility alone to do that??? [NO!]
You really have no idea do you? The CLASSIC example of popular propaganda was the WILDLY popular Class War sticker - "Fuck the Poll Tax!" - shifted in the hundreds of thousands, people grabbing them out of your hands down the pub, on demos etc...
John. wrote:
gangster wrote:
Maybe you publish the odd pamphlet (in what sense I meant 'odd' is up to you to decideUnlike you right?
*Yawn*
You really have no idea do you? The CLASSIC example of popular propaganda was the WILDLY popular Class War sticker - "Fuck the Poll Tax!" - shifted in the hundreds of thousands, people grabbing them out of your hands down the pub, on demos etc...
I assume that you don't believe that simply the sight of these stickers changed people's minds. They would not then be propaganda.
edit: actualy I'm wrong there, but stickers and pamphlets serve entirely different purposes. Stickers are a sign of solidarity, a show of strength, a way of inciting interest.
Pamphlets are, hopefully, a way of helping people engage with an issue.
People always prefer the stickers 
There are problems with the IWW but I'm not neccesarily against having different organisations for different areas of struggle. And anyway, I think it would be more problematic saying to my that I can only organise something with them if they agree to the principles of revolutionary syndicalism first!
Alright, ned. I'm taking this as a swipe at the SolFed.
This is a link to SolFed's industrial strategy:-
http://libcom.org/hosted/sf/strategy.htm
and I suppose this is the most relevant section:-
In the medium term and as an essential forerunner to such a society, SolFed promotes and seeks to initiate anarcho-syndicalist unions. To this end, SolFed seeks to create a militant opposition to the bosses and the state, controlled by the workers themselves. Its strategy can apply equally to those in the official trade unions who wish to organise independently of the union bureaucracy and those who wish to set up other types of self-organisation.
which hardly says that agreeing with the principles of revolutionary unionism is a precondition of organising something with a group of workers.
Perhaps you're thinking of the industrial networks, which used to have to be made up of SolFed members. However this policy was (rightly, in my view) changed at the 2005 SolFed conference.
Pamphlets are, hopefully, a way of helping people engage with an issue.People always prefer the stickers :(
The first pamphlet documented the campaign in Scotland and explained what Militant was up to there. This came from direct experience and solidarity actions since ACF was exchanging with anti-poll tax groups in Scotland before it ever came to England and Wales (a year later). As a result we were prepared for the kinds of tactics where a community group would have already formed, but Militant would set up a parallel one if they didn't control it. We also drew on the tactics of the refusal campaign in Scotland. The pamphets were very well recieved. Organise! also published extensively on the campaign in Scotland (and later on of course like everyone did)-most of these are too old to be online but see http://www.libcom.org/hosted/af/org/issue42/orgonwrd.html
Class War contributed well to the propaganda of the campaign later on, but actually came in rather late in terms of initial groundwork as the Fed did not agree amongst itself whether it would become a mass working class issue.
AF believes ID cards could become a similar campaign which is why the new pamphlet was produced.
Perhaps you're thinking of the industrial networks, which used to have to be made up of SolFed members. However this policy was (rightly, in my view) changed at the 2005 SolFed conference.
That's interesting. It's not that long ago an AF member was knocked back quite bluntly when he said he was interested in the Education Workers Network. Have you got a link to the lastest line on the SolFed industrial networks?
Alright, ned. Because the thing with the networks was done as a constitutional amendment, all I have is the relevant section of the revised constitution, which reads
The Solidarity Federation consists of Locals which support the formation of future revolutionary unions and are centres for working class struggle on a local level. Our activities are based on Direct Action - action by workers ourselves, not through intermediaries like politicians and union officials; our decisions are made through participation of the membership.
That section used to start "The Solidarity Federation consists of Locals & Networks....." which (obviously) tied the Networks to the SolFed. I don't have my copy of the old members' yearbook (which had the old bit in full). Sorry -- serve me right for ever throwing anything away. 
And in fact both the ACF pamphlets were massively copied. People in Brighton, for example, reprinted big chunks and did a mass mailing through letter boxes on estates, etc.
Jef Costello wrote:
Pamphlets are, hopefully, a way of helping people engage with an issue.People always prefer the stickers :(
The first pamphlet documented the campaign in Scotland and explained what Militant was up to there. This came from direct experience and solidarity actions since ACF was exchanging with anti-poll tax groups in Scotland before it ever came to England and Wales (a year later). As a result we were prepared for the kinds of tactics where a community group would have already formed, but Militant would set up a parallel one if they didn't control it. We also drew on the tactics of the refusal campaign in Scotland. The pamphets were very well recieved. Organise! also published extensively on the campaign in Scotland (and later on of course like everyone did)-most of these are too old to be online but see http://www.libcom.org/hosted/af/org/issue42/orgonwrd.html
Class War contributed well to the propaganda of the campaign later on, but actually came in rather late in terms of initial groundwork as the Fed did not agree amongst itself whether it would become a mass working class issue.
AF believes ID cards could become a similar campaign which is why the new pamphlet was produced.
Admin - Discussion in Esperanto(?) split here:
And in fact both the ACF pamphlets were massively copied. People in Brighton, for example, reprinted big chunks and did a mass mailing through letter boxes on estates, etc.
Second pamphlet 'Beating the Poll Tax' pamphlet from March 1989 is now online: http://www.libcom.org/hosted/af/ace/polltax.html
so you can see for yourselves ...
gangster wrote:
John. wrote:
gangster wrote:
Maybe you publish the odd pamphlet (in what sense I meant 'odd' is up to you to decideUnlike you right?
*Yawn*
You really have no idea do you? The CLASSIC example of popular propaganda was the WILDLY popular Class War sticker - "Fuck the Poll Tax!" - shifted in the hundreds of thousands, people grabbing them out of your hands down the pub, on demos etc...
I assume that you don't believe that simply the sight of these stickers changed people's minds. They would not then be propaganda.
edit: actualy I'm wrong there, but stickers and pamphlets serve entirely different purposes. Stickers are a sign of solidarity, a show of strength, a way of inciting interest.
Pamphlets are, hopefully, a way of helping people engage with an issue.
People always prefer the stickers :(
Doh! as homer sed. There was a vibrant working class ambience - movement if you like. THe pamphlets may have been of use to a few activists, but getting into the classes mass consciousness onamove IS far more important. IT's not a question of changing minds (the Working class already hated the tax) the point is to try and crank up the political atmosphere and the sense of what becomes possible. Pamphlets will never do that.
Gangster: firstly try to be coherent and secondly don't talk down to me when you're not really contradicting me, correcting me or demonstrating anything of any use.
Gangster: firstly try to be coherent and secondly don't talk down to me when you're not really contradicting me, correcting me or demonstrating anything of any use.
Again we disagree... THe point is the stickers in combination with other things (perhaps a very minor role for pamphlets - the disagreement is in the relative weighting) meant that ideas spread quickly....
Ok I'll bite this time
Do you even read your own posts?
I am shocked that you managed to complete a thesis as you seem unable to produce coherent posts. Or did they pass it just to get rid of you?
The Af produce pamphlets, stickers, leaflets, magazines. We're not so hot on plastic bags, logos, cigarette lighters .......
Admin - Ian Bone vs the AF silly argument split here:
Admin - Trolling post removed. As gangster was on a final warning he is now banned until further notice
So much Careless Talk, what am I to say, serging forward, or standing still ?
What I posted was a bit disjointed maybe, and long, and a rant. But this is a message board isn't it, I thought that rants were permitted ? Also, the stuff I said before, you might say that it was rhetorical.
Nobody can be happy with the current state of the Anarchism, are Anarchist Federation member's happy with the their response to the world ? You can't be, how could you possibly be happy.
Ok, you are on a relative high, more people involved ect. But what happens next ? softly softly, no risks, develop your politics, and then what ? What will it be like, ten years down the line ? Let me make a prediction, your position will not be significantly different then, to your current one, and the world is no more likely to be aware of your existence then, than it is now. At the current rate, you might just be on course to achieve your goals in about 500 yrs, the trouble is, we haven't got that long. Capitalism, being not only unsustainable in the long term, but very possibly in the short term as well, due to the rapidly diminishing oil supply, and all the problems that is likely to bring.
I asked what thinking outside the box meant ? and was given no answer. Ok, I will tell you what it means. It means a recognition that radical politics of every description has hit a brick wall. And that if we are to look at ourselves, we are small in number, marginalised, and fragmented. What we have, does not work, to anything like the degree that it could. What's more, there's little likelihood that it will work, unless we make some big changes, hence, thinking outside the box.
A revolution, in the theory, and more to the point, the practice of the anarchist movement itself. An enormous kick up the arse, that we give ourselves. This is a state of mind more than anything else, in which, everything is up for grabs, and everything is questioned. All the time honoured ways of doing things, all the political tramlines on which we operate. It would mean stepping back from everything to re-evaluate it, to change it if necessary, nothing being sacred. It would mean completely new ways of thinking and acting, to be ambitious, to set our sights high, think big, take initiatives, take risks, go out on a limb, be pro-active and imaginative, and adventurous. All qualities, that in my opinion, are sadly lacking in the current organised anarchist movement.
The real strength of anarchism, is the majority of people, who do loads of work, but are not part of any national group, and probably never will be. If there is ever going to be a significant breakthrough for this kind of politics, then I cant see it coming from any of the current national federations. I think it will take something completely new to turn it around.
If you want a good example of thinking outside the box, then I will mention the bradford conference of a few years ago, something which AF members had a heavy involvement in. What happened to good the will from that time, were did it go too ?
The Anarchist movement should be a reflection of the world it would create, and at the moment it is not, it is not even close. But, it is within our power to change that. Change ? a concept I believe is strongly associated with the political philosophy of Anarchism. 
So, what do YOU suggest we actually do?
So Glory Hunter, what do you know about Careless Talk? Just curious, 'cos like serge I was a member ....
Hi
I think it will take something completely new to turn it around.
Go on...
Love
LR
i am but a wee bairn, but i have already fallen out of love with this kind of talk
The real strength of anarchism, is the majority of people, who do loads of work, but are not part of any national group, and probably never will be. If there is ever going to be a significant breakthrough for this kind of politics, then I cant see it coming from any of the current national federations. I think it will take something completely new to turn it around.
this new, unfathomable thing! When the revolution comes, we won't even recognise it!
wot rot; revolutionary vagueism is fine, you know, that certain things will be alright on the night and don't need a 45 point plan. But this idea that you can't try an embody the new socirty that you want to be in working for that new society is just over the top.
I saw an Afed poster today, apparently there will be a day of action tomorrow.
Careless talk ? been up too stoke a couple of times, once with the London workers group, in connection with Intercom, and once with class war, on the first occasion I seem to remember, you played a rockie horror show record again and again, it was painful.
Bearing in mind, that there is 98% agreement here on most things, and it is only the 2% that is contested to the death.
And I never said I had all the answers, Im facing the same brick wall as everyone else.
But, assuming that I am wrong, and a way forward is to put more energy into the national orgs. What should you be doing ?
There's lots of talk about unity, and it never seems to go anywhere, how about the AF taking an initiative in this respect,
and leading the way. You organise a national conference of all the feds, all members to attend. The aim of this meeting is not that
maybe we could work more closely together, but we will work more closely together, It's been talked about, but it never seems to happen, do it.
If you want something to work together on, how about a movement newspaper ? no articles about Malatesta, as important as they may be. Not a paper written for other anarchists, but something that addresses the concerns of working class people.
This is something that everybody produces together, and everybody goes out and sells on the street. And we think, not of producing 2000 copies but 20.000 or more, I know it's possible to do it, because class war has done it in the past. It's just a question of setting your sights high enough, and having the confidence to do it.
It doesn't mean you have to stop producing all the other things you do, you can even call it class war, and have local sections, still the best and too the point name of any paper.
Again, all of this has been said before, and again it never seems to happen. We are not, at the moment, in a position to have any real effect, organising where we work or live, but we could have a real effect in terms of ideas.
And if all the national federations really were to start working together, then maybe, we could have some overall strategy, (even the fucking nazi's have a strategy) instead of the haphazard approach we have at the moment, and we could make decisions about where to devote resources at a given time.
I will remind you, that anarchism is about co-operation, because at the moment it doesn't do what it says on the label, not to anything like the degree it could or should. If you had something that actually worked as best as it could under the circumstances, then maybe more people would be likely to get involved, because at the moment it a bloody thankless task, and you need some bold moves to break out of this impasse, because the alternative is banging your head against the wall until doomsday.
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Hi
To be fair, I stole it from IB.
Which reminds me...
http://www.geocities.com/aufheben2/auf_6_cwar.html
Was this Martin Wright at the bookfair?
Love
LR