What, no laughing at the SWP / Respect bust up thread?
Oct 22 2007 11:01
What's wrong with you people?
Oct 22 2007 11:06
#2
I don't even have a clue what this guy is on about and I don't remember an SWP bust up thread so obviously my memory is shit, enlighten me.
Oct 22 2007 11:09
#3
A huge factional struggle has broken out in Respect between the SWP and, well, pretty much everyone
else. The most detailed coverage, complete with internal
documents and the like can be found here: http://www.socialistunity.com
It seems that there have been growing tensions between the SWP and the
other, largely Muslim, elements of Respect in Tower Hamlets and
Birmingham for a while now but the struggle was triggered by a letter
written by Galloway to the National Council of Respect. The letter,
without mentioning the SWP by name, was clearly critical of the kind
of SWP organisational methods which comrades will be familiar with.
This in turn triggered a furious reaction from the SWP, which has
included expulsions of some prominent members. Since then there have
been huge rows at delegate selection meetings and the atmosphere in
that organisation looks toxic. Respect's conference is next month and
it looks like the next few weeks will be one long round of bitter
fights at branch AGMs and National Council followed, potentially, by a conference blood bath and split.
I'm just surprised not to see a big thread about it here, given that whining about the SWP is a central focus of anarchist political activity in modern Britain.
Oct 22 2007 11:15
#4
Me too to be honest, we should be rippin it out ov em.So I'm guessing this dispute within RESPECT is all about islamism vs secularism.
Oct 22 2007 11:17
#5
Can't the SWP just withdraw funding for Respect?
Oct 22 2007 11:25
#6
It is actually quite interesting. One of the most interesting comments I saw on the whole affair was this one:
John Rees wrote:
We believe that the constant adaptation to what are referred to as ‘community leaders’ in Tower Hamlets is lowering the level of politics and making us vulnerable to the attacks and pressures brought on us by New Labour. It is alienating us not only from the white working class but also from the more radical sections of the Bengali community, both secular and Muslim, who feel that Respect is becoming the party of a narrow and conservative trend in the area.
I made a few comments about it on Revleft.
Devrim
Oct 22 2007 11:48
#7
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
I'm just surprised not to see a big thread about it here, given that whining about the SWP is a central focus of anarchist political activity in modern Britain.
It's a sign of how far we've come that you had to start this thread yourself Irritable.
Oct 22 2007 12:10
#8
catch wrote:
It's a sign of how far we've come that you had to start this thread yourself Irritable.
Yes. I noticed the incredible upsurge in anarchist workplace and community organisation and thought I'd better distract you all. It's all part of my fiendish plan to maintain Trotskyist hegemony on the British left.
Oct 22 2007 12:16
#9
Thought so. Good job I nipped it in the bud early eh, people calling me paranoid 
Oct 22 2007 13:32
#10
One of the pro-SWP documents I read almost read like they'd constructed it from criticisms of RESPECT that anarchists and others on the left have been making for the past 2 years.
I'm almost tempted to join RESPECT on paper so I can go to the conference and enjoy. 
Oct 22 2007 13:38
#11
One interesting bit is that the reason two of the SWP members were expelled/left was because they're in the upper ranks of RESPECT and working closely with Galloway. They were also apparently quite long time and senior members of the SWP. Shows just how weak the SWP's politics are if they're losing members to front groups, sorry coalitions, when they U-turn away from them. [/falls into irritable's carefully laid trap]
Oct 22 2007 14:01
#12
Jack wrote:
I'm almost tempted to join RESPECT on paper so I can go to the conference and enjoy. ;)
You should do this. It will be one of the most entertaining days out you could hope for.
Oct 22 2007 15:06
#13
Julie W. vs Gorgeous G. is the fight to look out for.
Oct 22 2007 15:15
#14
Oct 22 2007 15:56
#15
Jack wrote:
Julie W. vs Gorgeous G. is the fight to look out for. ;)
The potential for hilarity is limitless. And the best thing about it is that, unlike most of these situations, the ending isn't obvious in advance. Will be there be a split? Which side will win? Nobody knows.
It looks, from the bits of information that have leaked out from Tower Hamlets and Birmingham that the anti-SWP lot will probably have 70 or more delegates from those two areas alone. That's probably going to be around a quarter of the delegates, so the SWP will need upwards of two thirds of the remaining delegates nationally. There will now be a whole series of selection meetings and a reconvened National Council meeting for both sides to tear more strips out of each other before the big day. And the Socialist Unity blog and the Weekly Worker will take great joy in leaking every grisly minute of it.
Oct 22 2007 16:03
#16
I used to know the guy who originally set up SUN (when he was still in the SWP), he used to complain that all WW did was "stir up shit". 
Oct 22 2007 16:06
#17
madashell wrote:
Yeah exactly. Fuck the Trots, anyone who enjoys or pays attention to this shit spends too much time in the ghetto (and I don't mean Peckham).
Oct 22 2007 16:17
#18
You're such a radical free spirit, unencumbered by ties to the left.
Oct 22 2007 16:25
#19
Alan wrote:
Yeah exactly. Fuck the Trots, anyone who enjoys or pays attention to this shit spends too much time in the ghetto (and I don't mean Peckham).
This is foolishness.
Like it or not, the SWP are the largest far left organisation in England. In many cases people's first encounter with the left or with socialist ideas is through them. They control the anti-war campaign and, in fact, often have the capacity to get to an issue first and set up a campaign which can sometimes channel most activism on the issue concerned in the direction they want. Recognising that does not mean thinking that the SWP matter all that much in the greater scheme of things. But in the small pond of the far left - and to the extent that the various ultra-lefts here actually get off their holes and do anything, that includes all of you - they are big fish. They impact on your ability to do stuff.
Plus it's genuinely entertaining.
Oct 22 2007 16:48
#20
i really couldnt give a flying one about either of these. i hope they both dissapear up their own arseholes. they dont matter one bit to us.
Oct 22 2007 16:51
#21
When people say that kind of thing, I wonder if they've genuinely managed to convince themselves it's true?
Oct 22 2007 16:54
#22
IrrationallyAngry wrote:
This is foolishness.
Foolishness? This is libcom.
Quote:
Like it or not, the SWP are the largest far left organisation in England. In many cases people's first encounter with the left or with socialist ideas is through them. They control the anti-war campaign and, in fact, often have the capacity to get to an issue first and set up a campaign which can sometimes channel most activism on the issue concerned in the direction they want. Recognising that does not mean thinking that the SWP matter all that much in the greater scheme of things. But in the small pond of the far left - and to the extent that the various ultra-lefts here actually get off their holes and do anything, that includes all of you - they are big fish. They impact on your ability to do stuff.
I don't see how. Despite being reasonably active (or as active as you can be with a full time job and a limited budget), I can go for months at a time without ever even encountering a Trot. The SWP are a fucking irrelevance and anybody who considers them important is so irrelevant it's laughable.
Oct 22 2007 16:58
#23
madashell wrote:
I don't see how. Despite being reasonably active (or as active as you can be with a full time job and a limited budget), I can go for months at a time without ever even encountering a Trot. The SWP are a fucking irrelevance and anybody who considers them important is so irrelevant it's laughable.
They're not "important" in the way that Gordon Brown is "important", but to pretend they don't have a great significance to anyone interested in communist politics is just silly.
You don't think they had a major effect on the direction of anti-war politics in this country? You don't think they have a significance within Trade Unions? If a big anti-ID card movement began? If there's a big struggle over the next generation of nuclear reactors? You don't think the RESPECT victory in Bethnal Green last election was one the the biggest "stories" of last election?
Oct 22 2007 17:19
#24
Well yeah it's vaguely relevant in that I suppose I can use it as ammunition next time I see my student mates in London. But then, most people are pretty familiar with the reputation of leftist organisations for spats and rows. I think sitting on here gloating is an exercise in utter irrelevance.
And I don't find it entertaining, I mean, watch a fucking soap if this kinda shit entertains you. Or alternatively, get some fucking mates.
Oct 22 2007 17:27
#25
If there's a big struggle over the next generation of nuclear reactors?
Any news with this btw?
Oct 22 2007 17:27
#26
Jack wrote:
You don't think they had a major effect on the direction of anti-war politics in this country? You don't think they have a significance within Trade Unions? If a big anti-ID card movement began? If there's a big struggle over the next generation of nuclear reactors?
They're able to have influence over stuff like this because these "struggles" and "movements" (that are often nothing of the kind) are tiny and inneffectual. The SWP's active membership is tiny, if they tried to take over any group with any major momentum or mass support behind it, they'd be ripped to shreds. With the possible exception of the Trade Unions, where they're a tiny influence among many competing influences, most of which are much bigger.
Quote:
You don't think the RESPECT victory in Bethnal Green last election was one the the biggest "stories" of last election?
And? Plenty of things become big stories, it doesn't make them important.
Oct 22 2007 17:46
#27
Terry wrote:
If there's a big struggle over the next generation of nuclear reactors?Any news with this btw?
It's proving a pain in the arse to find - I'm trying to research it right now for an article actually, 'cause Shoreham (3 miles from Brighton) is one of the top proposed sites.
Quote:
They're able to have influence over stuff like this because these "struggles" and "movements" (that are often nothing of the kind) are tiny and inneffectual. The SWP's active membership is tiny, if they tried to take over any group with any major momentum or mass support behind it, they'd be ripped to shreds.
This is just a silly inversion of the SWPs "most significant movement ever" crap. It was deeply and fundementally flawed, but anti-war politics in 2003 obviously had mass support behind it, yet the SWP effectivly controlled much of it. I reckon opposition a big new wave of nuclear reactors could, too (I don't think ID cards will, I was playing to your AF mind ). In any real terms, Militant had a tiny membership in 1991 - yet look at the control they had in the Poll Tax Movement. A few thousand organised Trots can actually be pretty effective.
Quote:
With the possible exception of the Trade Unions, where they're a tiny influence among many competing influences, most of which are much bigger.
In many cases, yes. But then I wouldn't pretend that developments in the Labour Party, SP or even CPB had 'nothing to do with me', either. I mean just on a personal level, many of the people who are doing most of the organisation for Local Government strike in November (assuming a yes ballot) are RESPECT members. I doubt I'm unique in this experience.
Quote:
And? Plenty of things become big stories, it doesn't make them important.
But Galloway was - most notibly in terms of the effect it had on communalist politics in the East End.
Oct 22 2007 18:04
#28
madashell wrote:
They're able to have influence over stuff like this because these "struggles" and "movements" (that are often nothing of the kind) are tiny and inneffectual. The SWP's active membership is tiny, if they tried to take over any group with any major momentum or mass support behind it, they'd be ripped to shreds.
Yes, broadly speaking this is true. But what you've done above is explain *why* the SWP/Respect are a factor to be reckoned with in terms of campaigns and far left activism. You haven't made an argument that they are insignificant to such activism.
Yes, if there were mass struggles kicking off all around Britain, the SWP would be unable to have much influence over them. But there aren't. The struggles which do exist tend to be small scale. That's the scale you are operating on too. And on that scale the SWP are bigger and better organised than anyone you are likely to be working with..
Take for example the various NHS campaigns around the country. As it happens SWP involvement has been belated and sporadic. But do you seriously doubt that they could make a very real pain in the hole of themselves if they decided to? Even in the case of larger movements - and the anti-war movement was large for a time - they can have an influence if they concentrate all of their resources on it. TIght organisation makes a big difference you know.
Oct 22 2007 18:38
#29
respect and the swp can go at it hammer and tong all they want, it is still pretty irrelevant to me. you may think they are important in left politics but i still think they are a shower of trots looking for an advantage over other trots.
Oct 22 2007 18:54
#30
jambo1 wrote:
You may think they are important in left politics but i still think they are a shower of trots looking for an advantage over other trots.
These two things are not mutually exclusive.
(And by the way, what other Trots are they looking for an advantage over here?)
who?