About right wing libertarian nutters

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Julien Chaulieu's picture
Julien Chaulieu
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Jan 22 2011 11:40
About right wing libertarian nutters

Just came across some nutters pretending to be right wing and libertarians. I never understood that concept. How can somebody can be both right winger and libertarian? Isn't it a bit oxymoron?

BTW I found them mostly in Youtube and though some websites in US and Britain. These guys are total idiots. They think that EU is a communist and Obama is a socialist too!!! WTF??? Are they really drunk???

Just wanted to open a conversation for this new sort of think called "right wing libertarianism".

Julien Chaulieu's picture
Julien Chaulieu
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Jan 22 2011 11:41

BTW if EU is communist then why I am against it? Was there a revolution while I was sleeping???

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jef costello
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Jan 22 2011 12:31

A libertarian is someone who values individual liberty. Roughly a left-wing libertarian will look at this as a lack of hierarchy and being forced to do things. A right-wing libertarian will tend to be more on the 'I can do what I want' aspect.

It isn't new, but it is a load of rubbish. As a system it doesn't really hold together, it is strognly anti-state but without a state the private property it wants us to compete over cannot be protected.

The left-wing view of libertarianism is much more based on the individual choosing to act in a way that benefits the community as a whole rather than simply doing whatever they please. For example in a left-wing libertarian society we wouldn't have economic and social forces compelling a person to spend their working life cleaning toilets. The toilets would be cleaned because people would recognise that it needed to be done. Whether by organising a rota or schedule or whateve method it would be done willingly without any compulsion other than the simple fact that it needs to be done and it is only fair for a person to do a share of the job. In a right-wing one they would argue that market forces would raise the wage until the job was paid well enough to make people do it (which simply would not happen)

Samotnaf
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Jan 22 2011 13:04

Chris Tame, former leader of the Libertarian Alliance gave advice to Thatcher when she was in power. See his critique of the Situationists in "The Politics Of Whim": http://www.google.fr/search?q=chris+tame+situationist+international&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:fr:official&client=firefox-a

Sir Arthur Stre...
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Jan 22 2011 13:12

Right wing libertarianism for me is hard line capitalist individualism. i.e. a benign state (or none at all) that leaves 'free' individuals to create wealth through an unregulated free market. So any failings of capitalism can be explained by state intervention rather than the system itself.
This individualism extends to the moral side in theory, as in you can do what you like in your private life, but in reality it is often very conservative because the individuals who hold the most clout are likely to be moral conservatives and will have set up a kind of moral monopoly.
In the US at least RW libertarians range from more serious intellectual types such as Ron Paul or Ayn Rand to the nutty mcNutnuts likely to be found within the tea-party, Palin, O'Donnell, maybe even Timothy Mcveigh.

To the really mental RW libertarian the EU is communist and Obama is a socialist because they represent the interfering state, both in the market and at home. Any kind of central power is seen as communist, in their twisted logic, whether it is a weak federal network or a fully state owned economy.

It's scary shit IMO. Their critique of the sate comes from a position I very much agree with, i.e. leave us alone (although for them it's more likely to be me rather than us) but there's a belief in the free market and its ability to provide equality and justice through the collective judgment of the individual that is completely at odds with libertarian communism/anarchism etc.

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Jan 22 2011 14:30

Usually right-wing libertarians are much more intellectual than the conservative. Usually it are conservatives saying ridiculous things like "Obama is socialist" etc.

Still, the right-wing libertarian purports to believe in three things: the 'right' to property, the right to life and the right to liberty. One has the right to property, even if you don't own any, i.e. the vast majority of people. The right to life, however, not the right to the means of life, e.g. healthcare, water and food. And the right to liberty, though not the right to control every aspect of your own life because in the capitalist firm you are still subject to hierarchy (i.e. you are not free). Their default response "nobody is forcing you to work for a boss, you can become an employer yourself" good luck telling that to a 12 year old kid who make 1$ a day. as if the answer to exploitations is becoming an exploiter.

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Jan 22 2011 14:33

By the way, these days "libertarianism" no longer refers to the anti-authoritarian left, but to all forms of anti-authoritarianist brands of political thought, basically every ideology that is 'voluntarist'.

I think every libertarian should agree with the definition of Mr. Long ("libertarianism is any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power [either "total or merely substantial"] from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives" source: wikipedia)

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Jan 22 2011 14:44

What I understand is that these people want to fight statism (which I agree) but they have no clue what really statism means. F.e they view free education as a socialist example (which is pathetic). They also want to privatize the health system which means that it would be no free because... they don't want their taxes to go for those who are unable to pay for a doctor. For them socialism=statism and I think it is really pathetic to believe that... I mostly view statism as authority and repression rather than public rights. If you ask them their opinion about protests and demos against this capitalist economic cannibalism they are in favour of repression despite they call themselves libertarians. IMO statism has to do with the domination of the state in almost everything rather than having things for free because this is the right thing. In fact they have a very bad attitude towards humanity.

Just like this sad example
http://eagainst.com/articles/money-banking-and-the-federal-reserve/#comment-897

Most of them have no clue about history of social struggles.

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Julien Chaulieu
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Jan 22 2011 14:47
Goti123 wrote:
By the way, these days "libertarianism" no longer refers to the anti-authoritarian left, but to all forms of anti-authoritarianist brands of political thought, basically every ideology that is 'voluntarist'.

True but I can't support that right wing libertarians are pro-freedom. As long as they are in favour of hierarchy and they want to maintain such an oppressive system (capitalism) they see to have a wrong sense of what freedom is.

IMO the term "libertarianism" has lost its actual meaning (mostly in the US). Such like the term Republicanism which started as a left wing movement and now it exactly the opposite.

Boris Badenov
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Jan 22 2011 15:18
jef wrote:
A libertarian is someone who values individual liberty.

I think the confusion that arises whenever libertarian communists come across right-wing libertarians can be explained by the fact that the word 'libertarian' itself has two different etymologies. One goes back to the religious and philosophical debates of the late 18th c. and refers to someone who believes in free will, the opposite of a necessitarian. As such, this early meaning is almost devoid of any political meaning, which is why it was easy for reactionary liberals to appropriate it after the rise of New Liberalism and the welfare state.
The second meaning of 'libertarian' can be traced to the French 'libertaire', a word coined by Joseph Dejacque in 1851 in a letter to Proudhon. Unlike the English word, which was modelled on religious/philosophical terms like necessitarian and unitarian, the French was political, in an anarchist and socialist sense, from the beginning; in fact it is entirely plausible that Dejacque conflated "liberte" and "egalitaire" in coming up with the new word.
From the mid-19th century until the mid 20th "libertarian" was almost exclusively used in the sense devised by Dejacque, and if it had any currency in the US it was as a synonym for anarchist and nothing more.
Only during the post-War period did the classical liberals begin to use it as an alternative to liberal, but obviously they did so unaware of its anarchist roots.
It is unfortunate that in recent times the ebb of the international anarchist movement and the rise of neoliberal politics has meant the almost complete "recuperation" of the word by rightists. I rather like "libertarian" tbh; it is a more positive description of anarchism than the word "anarchism" itself, which merely denotes the lack of something.

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Jan 22 2011 15:29

What is funny too is that they, classical liberals, say that common ownership, worker ownership, libertarian socialism, etc. requires force to expropriate private property. Yet, when you ask them what should a society do about workers expropriating private property they will reply that it is justified to use force to stop expropriation and maintain private property. Somewhat ironic.

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Jan 22 2011 15:35
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True but I can't support that right wing libertarians are pro-freedom.

That is because there is not one definition of freedom. Right-wing libertarians equate voluntarism with liberty. So a 12 year old kid working 15 hours a day for 1 dollar a day is considered, by classical liberals, to be free because nobody is using physical force to make him work. In the same way, debt slavery is considered 'voluntary'. Any person can see that their logic is flawed, if not retarded, the reason the classical liberals don't see it is because their scope reaches no longer than their own country, meaning the argument that 'nobody is forcing you to work for a capitalist' makes some sense in the Western world where many people have the financial capabilities to start their own business. But globally it makes no sense. To see capitalism not beyond your own borders is incredibly stupid, and so classical liberals are, since Capitalism is a global system not a national one.

petey
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Jan 22 2011 19:29

get your daily dose at lewrockwellDOTcom

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Julien Chaulieu
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Jan 22 2011 19:56

Anti-state, anti-war but pro-market!!! Ok, I'm done!!!!!

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Jan 23 2011 15:34

This is from an 'intro to libertarianism' pamphlet I wrote some years back:

Libertarian? Is that like the Libertarian Party?

The short answer is a resounding no. The term “libertarian” has been used by the anti-statist left for over 150 years. It was not until the 1970s that a group of pro-capitalist extremists, seeking to co-opt the language of the revolutionary left, began to use the term. The Libertarian Party, as well as so-called “anarcho-capitalists,” are in no way libertarian. They merely want the state to function solely for the benefit of the capitalist class. Contrary to liberals, who believe the working class is more easily kept in line when the state curtails the worst aspects of capitalism, the Libertarian Party denies that government should have any role in protecting workers and consumers from even the most flagrant injustices committed in the name of a market economy.

True libertarians oppose all hierarchy and authority, beginning with capitalism and the state. The Libertarian Party, on the other hand, does not oppose the state as an institution, despite the fact government is objectively and irreconcilably authoritarian. The party seeks only to dismantle any social functions (public housing programs, public employment, progressive taxation, universal healthcare, unemployment benefits, etc) that social movements have forced upon the state, often having faced violent opposition from the government to do so. At the most basic level, the Libertarian Party fully supports the state in protecting private property (the police), defending national capitalist interests (the military), and maintaining class society (social control enforced by the police, the courts, and capitalist legislation). A truly libertarian world would be one entirely free of hierarchy and coercive authority. By supporting unfettered, unregulated capitalism and the most repressive aspects of the state, the Libertarian Party program, if ever put into effect, would increase the amount of hierarchy and authoritarianism present in society.

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Jan 23 2011 15:36

This is from an 'intro to libertarian socialism' pamphlet I wrote some years back:

Libertarian? Is that like the Libertarian Party?

The short answer is a resounding no. The term “libertarian” has been used by the anti-statist left for over 150 years. It was not until the 1970s that a group of pro-capitalist extremists, seeking to co-opt the language of the revolutionary left, began to use the term. The Libertarian Party, as well as so-called “anarcho-capitalists,” are in no way libertarian. They merely want the state to function solely for the benefit of the capitalist class. Contrary to liberals, who believe the working class is more easily kept in line when the state curtails the worst aspects of capitalism, the Libertarian Party denies that government should have any role in protecting workers and consumers from even the most flagrant injustices committed in the name of a market economy.

True libertarians oppose all hierarchy and authority, beginning with capitalism and the state. The Libertarian Party, on the other hand, does not oppose the state as an institution, despite the fact government is objectively and irreconcilably authoritarian. The party seeks only to dismantle any social functions (public housing programs, public employment, progressive taxation, universal healthcare, unemployment benefits, etc) that social movements have forced upon the state, often having faced violent opposition from the government to do so. At the most basic level, the Libertarian Party fully supports the state in protecting private property (the police), defending national capitalist interests (the military), and maintaining class society (social control enforced by the police, the courts, and capitalist legislation). A truly libertarian world would be one entirely free of hierarchy and coercive authority. By supporting unfettered, unregulated capitalism and the most repressive aspects of the state, the Libertarian Party program, if ever put into effect, would increase the amount of hierarchy and authoritarianism present in society.

Anarcho
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Jan 23 2011 22:14

Well, I've written a few things against them:

section F of An Anarchist FAQ

An Anarchist Critique of Anarcho-Statism

Also, I wrote this in response to a propertarian complaining on Anarkismo that WE had stolen THEIR name -- 150 years of libertarian Also, I quote Rothbard happily admitting the propertarians stole our name in this blog

Their ideas are crazy -- happy to tolerate ANY restrictions on freedom as long as the property-owner is doing it, Some of them also envision voluntary slavery! The worse thing is, in America "Libertarian" now means right-wing nutter,,, and if we don't watch out, the same could happen here.

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Jan 24 2011 22:05

I guess it could be another one to go with my avatar:

FASCISM IS LIBERTY

Sounds like doublethink to me...

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Jan 26 2011 21:44
Julien Chaulieu wrote:
Just came across some nutters pretending to be right wing and libertarians. I never understood that concept. How can somebody can be both right winger and libertarian? Isn't it a bit oxymoron?

BTW I found them mostly in Youtube and though some websites in US and Britain. These guys are total idiots. They think that EU is a communist and Obama is a socialist too!!! WTF??? Are they really drunk???

Just wanted to open a conversation for this new sort of think called "right wing libertarianism".

Growing up in Wyoming/Montana US whenever I heard "libertarian" I knew the person was talking about someone far to the right. Its the common usage in my area now. It wasn't tell I was introduced to anarchist politics that I came to know "libertarian" as having another meaning entirely. I personally like the terms "libertarian-communism/socialism" for the same reasons another poster did. It denotes something positive rather than an expression of the absence of something.

Not much to worry about, I don't think the far-left can keep any term for long before it gets perverted for good reason. If we started branding ourselves with "Industrial Democracy", in fifty years "Industrial Democrat" would come to mean free-market conservative. However silly illogical.

petey
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Jan 27 2011 16:56
bozemananarchy wrote:
Not much to worry about, I don't think the far-left can keep any term for long before it gets perverted for good reason. If we started branding ourselves with "Industrial Democracy", in fifty years "Industrial Democrat" would come to mean free-market conservative. However silly illogical.

i just found an example of this very thing:
http://libcom.org/forums/north-america/what-worker-freedom-means-states-26012011

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bozemananarchy
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Jan 27 2011 21:06

har, by fifty years in the future I meant like a few years ago.

Leftists are garbage
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Apr 14 2014 15:32

"True libertarians oppose all hierachy beginning with capitalism" LOL LMFAO ROFL Socialist pile of dirt do the world a favour and die. You don't have any freakin brain and your IQ doesn't exist smile Left-wing libertarianism is a made up fake construct, it's liberal garbage shit just under a different name. How can someone be a socialist AND a libertarian ??? LOL
Here something to read so maybe even the mentally disabled may understand:
LIBERTARIANISM IS ABOUT PRIVATE PROPERTY AND INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM IN PERSONAL LIFE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LIBERAL/LEFTIST DIRT.
FUCK OFF AND DIE LEFTISTS YOUR MADE UP LIE-DIRT HAS FAILED
DO THE WORLD A FAVOUR AND KILL YOURSELF, SHITSTAIN, SOCIALISTS ARE PURE DIRT AND DON'T HAVE ANY RIGHT TO LIVE

Leftists are garbage
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Apr 14 2014 15:40

Oh fuck you and just die, dumbass, you are fucking stupid true Libertarians hate leftist/liberal/communist fugly dirt like yourself. All you need to do is to inhale some Zyklon B or better just let yourself get kicked to death. We don't need socialist dirt anywhere in the world socialist turd people need to perish from the earth's surface. Socialists look very fugly and are stupid as a pile of shit. socialists are dirt which the world doesn't need.

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Apr 14 2014 15:49
Leftists are garbage wrote:
How can someone be a socialist AND a libertarian ??? LOL

infektfm
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Apr 14 2014 15:49

Are you aware that libertarianism as a label and a tradition developed within the socialist tradition? No, obviously not. Anyway, if this guy is representative of the intellectual capacity of right wing libertarians, I don't think we have much to worry about.

Webby
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Apr 14 2014 15:57

Now, I was pretty clueless and a bit to the right when I first chanced upon Libcom but this guy takes the piss!

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Apr 14 2014 16:06

Leftists are garbage, you really made me see the error of my ways with your solid arguments based on irrefutable evidence. Hail the state! Hail capital! Hail Hydra!

radicalgraffiti
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Apr 14 2014 16:06

interesting isn't it how often right "libertarians" have basically fascist politics

Leftists are garbage
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Apr 14 2014 16:06

I give a fucking shit about your shitty history and your fugly so-called traditions. Terms change and today's libertarianism doesn't have anything in common with "historical" fake-libertarianism that is in fact liberalism and socialism. Socialist libertarianism = false flag fake construct
Socialist are fugly dirt that must just get kicked to death. Smash Socialism

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Apr 14 2014 16:12

Hey, I'm waiting for my REAL libertarian orders from Glenn Beck, but he's not answering my calls. I really want to join in on this war on information. What should I do?

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Apr 14 2014 22:27

It's fairly easy to date the period when the theft of "libertarian" by the right in the USA took place. If you read the intro to Milton Friedman's "Capitalism & Freedom," which was first published in 1962, he defines his politics as "classical liberal". But he was advocating the form of "anti-statism" advocated by right wing socalled "libertarians" in that book. During the '60s, as Rothbard revealed, a concerted effort was made by advocates of 19th century extreme individualist liberalism to adapt the "libertarian" name for their ideology. They restrict the meaning of "liberty" to "negative liberty", that is, the absence of coercion or restraint.

Since no one puts a gun to your head to take a job offer it's a "free relationship" as far as these characters are concerned. But the older use of "libertarian", by libertarian socialists/communists/anarchists, were thinking about liberty also in the positive sense: control over the decisions that affect you, not just as an individual but collectively, and development of one's personal capacities, one's human potential.

So the fake "libertarians" are actually right wing liberals of the 19th century social Darwinist variety. Their focus is on defense of property rights, so if an employer uses their "property right" in the firm to deny you your liberty & control in your work, well that's fine with them because they are only interested in the freedom of owners of capital, when you get right down to it. These competing definitions of "libertarian" sort of bring out the contradiction in the word "freedom" itself: the freedom of the capitalist contradicts the freedom of the worker.

Altho this bullshit originated in the USA, I'm not sure to what degree it has been taken up by right wingers elsewhere. I get the sense that "libertarian" in non-English speaking countries tends to still have the original libertarian socialist meaning, that is, a leftwing meaning.