Anarchism today?

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The Outlaw's picture
The Outlaw
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Jan 31 2010 18:45
Anarchism today?

could you tell me/show me/explain to me how exactly anarchism would work in the contemporary uk?

I mean practically work and are there any anarchist communities in the world?

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cantdocartwheels
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Jan 31 2010 19:46
The Outlaw wrote:
could you tell me/show me/explain to me how exactly anarchism would work in the contemporary uk?

Anarchist communism is a society based on self management. Each workplace co-ordinates labour and production themselves democratically. This is either done directly through general assemblies, or where workplaces are too large through a delegate system. In which decisions are made by smaller groups and recallable mandated delegates from said smaller groups meet to vote on decisions according to the mandates they have been given.

Anyways, i think you'll have to be more specific with your question. What problems or obstacles do you think their are to a hypothetcial post-revolutionary anarchist society.

Quote:
I mean practically work and are there any anarchist communities in the world?

An example of a transformation to an anarchist society
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Go14T0kLss
(most relevant part is 4 mins onwards)

gypsy
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Jan 31 2010 19:55

That video is great. Love hearing from these veterans who actually lived in an anarchist type society. Most have been an amazing feeling to be part of that.

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Feb 1 2010 01:22

So in an anarchist society work will be "politics"?

Also: Do theoriest such as anarchism/communism (the same thing but meh) believe work to be the most important aspect of human life?

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cantdocartwheels
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Feb 1 2010 09:13
The Outlaw wrote:
So in an anarchist society work will be "politics"?

In a manner of speaking yes, though it would be easier to say that we simply don't think economics should be seperated from politics.
The idea that politics is seperate from the rest of our lives is generally the central ideological rationale of the state, which rules that politics should be a seperate sphere left to specialists (whether they are politicians or party/union full timers) who will sort out our problems for us.

Quote:
Also: Do theoriest such as anarchism/communism (the same thing but meh) believe work to be the most important aspect of human life?

Most anarchists would generally think that the sphere of production (aka work) is what most shapes society. Hence today it is our social relations in the workplace that play the largest role in shaping the rest of capitalist society. Likewise a 1000 years ago, it was the way in which peasants worked for large landowners that shaped feudal society.

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Feb 1 2010 12:39

So we're living in a world of "plato's philosopher kings", and that in an anarchist society, we all will be able to express our political beliefs through the avenues set up at work?

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Interesting.

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Feb 2 2010 01:11
The Outlaw wrote:
So we're living in a world of "plato's philosopher kings", and that in an anarchist society, we all will be able to express our political beliefs through the avenues set up at work?

No. 'Work' will undoubtedly take on a meaning different to the current definition of 'work' as alienated wage-labour. 'Activity' might be a better description. The separation of enacting and the decision to conduct these activities will not exist (this is a defining feature of anarchism).

In that sense you might say that anarchism is the abolition of both work and politics, as these only make sense under capitalism.

I take it by "political beliefs" you mean your convictions which compel you to act. I would say that the expression of these convictions would only be limited by their popularity (hence enactment), with the usual caveat of not impeding the liberty of others. This is how it usually works in anarchist groups currently.

Personally, I think there is some obligation by anarchists to support unpopular but reasonable ideas and that this support should take the form of access to avenues of expression (such as printing presses and forums). Not much beyond that, though.

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Feb 2 2010 15:49

So as we will no longer be wage slaves, we will be "reaping what we sow" and thus work will be life?

petey
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Feb 2 2010 17:13
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Anarchism today

sounds like a magazine

Lumpen wrote:
'Work' will undoubtedly take on a meaning different to the current definition of 'work' as alienated wage-labour.

this is pretty much the heart of it.
great avatar, btw.

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Feb 2 2010 18:07

I don't think work should be the main emphasize of our existence but being social animals.

30bananasaday
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Feb 3 2010 10:22

are the two mutually exclusive?

Jason Cortez
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Feb 3 2010 10:31

Most 'work' is and has always been social. To exist we need certain basic requirements, to get these we need to devote time and energy, most human throughout history have organised this collectively. Social needs require 'work' as much as physical ones.

Battlescarred
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Feb 3 2010 12:35

As Anarchist Federation (London) says in the pamphlet The Italian Factory Councils and the Anarchists:
Factory councils themselves are only revolutionary in a revolutionary situation. In
a non-revolutionary situation within present capitalist society, any factory council
would be under pressure to act as a mediator between the workers and the
employing class, and so be subject to cooption and recuperation. In a
revolutionary situation factory councils have to imply their own withering away as
workers’ councils into a new society where work as labour will disappear.
As well as this, it is not enough to develop a coordination of councils if at the
same time it is not linked up to the dismantling of the State apparatus. Another
necessity is the development of neighbourhood councils in tandem with those in
the workplaces. In these early decades of the 21st century, social life (at least in
Europe and North America) has changed considerably. Such a linkage would
involve all those sections of the proletariat that would otherwise be
disenfranchised if new forms of social organisation were only confined to the
workplace. In this way workers on short term contacts, the unemployed, the
retired, young people, those doing unwaged work (carers, housewives,
househusbands) could be fruitfully associated with a movement of social change.
These sections of the proletariat would definitely enrich such a movement and on
the political, economic and social level would contribute greatly to a successful
outcome. The development of such forces would also have a key role in the
distribution of products produced by the workplaces, because without selforganised
distribution networks, such production would have no sense. Neither
should the workers of the land be ignored. It is true that large occupations of the
land occurred in southern Italy at the same time as the factory councils and in
fact the well known Italian anarchist Camillo Berneri regarded these as more
radical and important than the factory occupations. In Britain this would primarily
involve agricultural workers. In other parts of the world, including parts of Europe,
if numerically the peasantry has considerably diminished since 1920, its
qualitative importance still remains. An urban proletariat cannot be triumphant
without the help of its rural equivalent, as the history of previous revolutions has
shown.

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Feb 3 2010 13:51

I would say in the past most work was done by slaves, i think there is something about work (presently at least) which is dehumanising, infact i think we're all becoming very dehumanised.

What we have to do as "work" in this day and age is completely different from living of the land in a small rural community, can you just answer: how will this exactly work in the modern world?

Fletcher
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Feb 3 2010 14:06
The Outlaw wrote:
I would say in the past most work was done by slaves, i think there is something about work (presently at least) which is dehumanising, infact i think we're all becoming very dehumanised.

What we have to do as "work" in this day and age is completely different from living of the land in a small rural community, can you just answer: how will this exactly work in the modern world?

Why should we want to live of the land in a small rural community. Have you moved from being a leninist to a primitivist?

Work is the means by which we will act socially to provide for our needs. Large scale manufacturing, production, distribution and services will still be required. These can be organised from the ground up and in the common interest to provide us with all that we need for comfortable lives and with meaningful work.

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The Outlaw
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Feb 3 2010 14:11

Where do i state i want to live of the land ina a small rural community? In the time where labour and life were not seperate was in a small celtic like society - a society which cannot exist today.

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I want a practical answer, not loads of useless bullshit.

Jason Cortez
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Feb 3 2010 15:12

Well you got one

Fletch wrote:
Work is the means by which we will act socially to provide for our needs. Large scale manufacturing, production, distribution and services will still be required. These can be organised from the ground up and in the common interest to provide us with all that we need for comfortable lives and with meaningful work.

If you require more detailed answers ask more detailed questions, with specific points.

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Feb 3 2010 15:40

Ok, how exactly will they be organised from the gorund up? What is the common interest? What is a comfortable life? Who/what will stop people taking advantage and or manipulating others? How would you define meaningful work? How will the manufacturing, production, distrubution and services be any different from how they are now?

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Feb 3 2010 18:56

outlaw, I could write a reply to your questions. However, previous replies to you I have written you have always just ignored or called me a Nazi, or a middle-class cunt. So I'm not sure if I should bother in this case. I did think I should say, though, that these are extremely basic questions you are asking, which people generally figure out the answers to before they start calling themselves anarchists, and telling people to organise anarchist marches and anarchist communes. It would probably be worth you doing some basic reading about a political idea, before you start labelling yourself it.

On work, I would recommend the following text:
http://libcom.org/library/work-free-society-anarchist-federation

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Feb 3 2010 20:28

I don't label myself as anything - people label me and i just emb race their labels.
If i am anything it is THE OUTLAW.

I want to hear peoples opinions on these questions, i already have answers to them and want to see what other people think. No when you started insulting me and being a consodening i am better than you prick, then i started labelling you a middle class nazi cunt and rightly so, if you do it again i will call you it again.

Boris Badenov
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Feb 3 2010 20:32
OOTLAW wrote:
consodening

ffs. I know grammar is middle class and you're keepin it real, but that's just gibberish.

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Feb 3 2010 20:47
Vlad336 wrote:
OOTLAW wrote:
consodening

ffs. I know grammar is middle class and you're keepin it real, but that's just gibberish.

Maybe it's a coined term meanng 'fraudulent sodomy'

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Feb 3 2010 21:16

Vlad your true colours have revealed themselves as a libcop! grammer nazi! i knew you was apart of the LGN from the beginning.

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Feb 3 2010 22:10
The Outlaw wrote:
Ok, how exactly will they be organised from the gorund up? What is the common interest? What is a comfortable life? Who/what will stop people taking advantage and or manipulating others? How would you define meaningful work? How will the manufacturing, production, distrubution and services be any different from how they are now?
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Feb 3 2010 22:27
The Outlaw wrote:
Ok, how exactly will they be organised from the gorund up?

Unlikely to be any single, exact way. People are heterogeneous, no reason for their society to be uniform at the bottom.

The Outlaw wrote:
What is the common interest?

Not living a boring rural existence, for one.

The Outlaw wrote:
What is a comfortable life?

Cheeseburgers every day.

The Outlaw wrote:
Who/what will stop people taking advantage and or manipulating others?

Those others or their mates.

The Outlaw wrote:
How would you define meaningful work?

Meaning is defined by people. If someone finds meaning in doing some work, then it's meaningful.

The Outlaw wrote:
How will the manufacturing, production, distrubution and services be any different from how they are now?

I sure hope that they won't be printing ridiculous amounts of "best-selling" dung, only to wonder how the hell they're going to get people to buy them so they'll fit the bill retroactively.

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Feb 3 2010 22:48

I was told when i first joined that i wasn't allowed to post up my own ideas and beliefs and that i was only allowed to ask questions. So thats what i'm doing....

Basically you don't have a fucking scooby and can't answer them, so you act like pricks to hide your own pathetic little bullshit bollocks cunting wastemaness.

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Feb 4 2010 00:31
The Outlaw wrote:
bullshit bollocks cunting wastemaness.

Is this a typo?
Seriously, THE OUTLAW, the reason you arent getting the definitive set-in-stone answers that you want is because people realise we dont have all the answers, nor should we presume to. Youre asking about the organisation of production and distribution in a communist society. To prescribe how that would be done is not the task or remit of the people on this forum, its up to the people who would be producing and distributing the stuff that we need to decide how best to organise themselves. Yes we have ideas: I certainly have ideas about how a railway could run, and run much better, in a communist society, but it wouldnt be up to me to just tell everybody else who worked there how to organise the running of the place.

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Feb 4 2010 01:19

I know nobody has all the answer's but we all have opinions don't we?

What did the people of the past do, who are quoted so much, or spoke about nearly everyday? They formulated opinions of their own, assesed the situation and then worked to implement it didn't they? Thats what the fuck we should be doing, instead of this childish arrogant bullshit, it's either that bollocks or self-defeating moany crap. Either way, it's counter-productive.

I'm not saying it's upto us to tell them how to do it, but it is upto us to theorize how to do it, to help out our working class comrades.

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888
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Feb 4 2010 01:39

anarchist book of answers

Section I - What would an anarchist society look like?

Yorkie Bar
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Feb 4 2010 12:11

I actually think the OP has been extremely reasonable throughout this thread (in his own special way) and tbh deserves a decent answer rather than mindless trolling.

Steven. wrote:
I did think I should say, though, that these are extremely basic questions you are asking, which people generally figure out the answers to before they start calling themselves anarchists

I couldn't disagree more, tbh. I for one have no clue how things will work in some futuristic society a century from now, and if I did try to answer those questions I'd just be guessing. I much prefer notch8's response:

Quote:
we dont have all the answers, nor should we presume to. Youre asking about the organisation of production and distribution in a communist society. To prescribe how that would be done is not the task or remit of the people on this forum, its up to the people who would be producing and distributing the stuff that we need to decide how best to organise themselves.

As for 'anarchism today', I think that anarchism in the here and now involves workers organising themselves to fight for their interests - I don't think we'll have a revolution today or tomorrow or anytime soon (not before the 6th at any rate wink ), but anarchism can still be applied to our daily lives.

THE OUTLAW wrote:
What did the people of the past do, who are quoted so much, or spoke about nearly everyday? They formulated opinions of their own, assesed the situation and then worked to implement it didn't they? That's what the fuck we should be doing,

Couldn't agree more.

~J.

Jason Cortez
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Feb 4 2010 13:08

Here are a couple of links to pamphlets on how the economy might work The economics of freedom

Workers councils
As why I have not written what I think, it is simple really, other people have taken a lot of time and put in a lot of effort to produce clear, readable, detailed and concise accounts which I think are useful starting points for discussion. Whilst neither pamphlet is perfect and I have criticisms of both, I also recognise that don't have all the answers and my thoughts are not as clear on some issues.