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Anarchism used as an identity instead of social change?

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Yorkie Bar
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Sep 25 2009 18:03
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You cant have "anarchy" under capitalism, at all.

See, this is a bit problematical. Surely revolutionary change can only come from the real tensions in society now, right? So in a sense, you do get 'anarchy' under capitalism - in the form of working class people organising to meet our needs through direct action. The actually existing movement which abolishes the reigning conditions and all that.

~J.

Boris Badenov
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Sep 25 2009 18:08
ChickenNugget wrote:
You cant say coke is the same as say tap water can you, in respect to ideologies?

In Canada tap water is technically free (in that I don't have to pay for it), but it is also a commodity in that the federal government sells it to the US government and bottling companies, including Coca Cola.
So basically beverages have fuck all to do with ideologies and the political status quo.

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Tojiah
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Sep 25 2009 23:04
Vlad336 wrote:
In Canada tap water is technically free (in that I don't have to pay for it)

So that's why it seems there's such a lackadaisical attitude towards conserving water over there? Is this true just for individuals, or for institutions as well?

Spassmaschine
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Sep 26 2009 00:21
Jack wrote:
ChickenNugget wrote:
i dont want to be a bigot, and i hope you dont either.

So under anarchy.. there is nothing to drink? How would drinkable items be created if there was anarchy? (seriously)

How about if i received some water or juiced my own oranges, into a container. How is that related to capitalism? You cant say coke is the same as say tap water can you, in respect to ideologies?

How about if i ran my own organic store, only me and my wife working. Bought organic goods from small time famers and sold them. I am sure you could think of oppression involved in such an activity.. so can you list them for me? (seriously)

Thing is, this is beside the point. Say we give it to you that you can design a fancy exploitation free business. That wouldn't change anything - it'd just be an oddity, and can only exist within a framework of a society based on exploitation. Your freely produced orange stand doesn't just exist on it's own, completely separated from the world it exists in.

This. Even though you might not be employing anyone, you still exist as a business on the market and so you still have to compete with all the other food stores. You can either put your prices up too high and lose customers, or you have to cut into wages in order to make any profits. Because you don't have any employees to exploit, it means the only 'wages' you can cut are your own. So even though you aren't exploiting anyone else, you are still yourself being forced to do things you don't want to do, by outside forces beyond your control (the market).

Boris Badenov
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Sep 26 2009 01:20
tojiah wrote:
Vlad336 wrote:
In Canada tap water is technically free (in that I don't have to pay for it)

So that's why it seems there's such a lackadaisical attitude towards conserving water over there? Is this true just for individuals, or for institutions as well?

like I said, free. There's plans to introduce a cap in the far off future (which would be redundant anyway for most consumers).

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jef costello
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Sep 26 2009 01:41
tojiah wrote:
Vlad336 wrote:
In Canada tap water is technically free (in that I don't have to pay for it)

So that's why it seems there's such a lackadaisical attitude towards conserving water over there? Is this true just for individuals, or for institutions as well?

And the fact that Canada has some of if not the the largest water reserves in the world and a fairly small population.

Hungry56
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Sep 26 2009 02:30

My local trot group, in their office fridge they have cans of coke, and beer, for sale.

Trotskyism 1
Anarchy 0

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x349429
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Sep 26 2009 03:45

I think it is a mistake to put as much energy into boycotts as so many do. You do not have real power as a consumer how can you? you can't stop consuming the system to death, its a poor docile way to organize, and it does not really address the issue of class or war profiteering, and labour laws. take coke for example. how successful has the killer coke campaign been outside of taking coke off some campuses and helping to get some students expelled, and alienating workers that are unionized in coke plants where I am from. would not be better to help build militancy in those plants and push for solidarity with all coke workers. and organic fair trade food that is not taken by your hand is expensive where I am from, and I aint going to tell some single mother that she can't shop at walmart as much as I hate that corporate entity because these are all by products of the system. Here we have sectarian Anarchist clicks too but I have found that most of those individuals moved into NGO's, liberal opportunistic bullshit, got carriers while trying to shit talk poor families who are Anarchist for going to work in the oil patch. oh ya some became entrenched in union bureaucracies. and others are just fuck crazy post crust punk soft cocks who feel they have the right to walk all over other individuals but you give them shit and and they cry to fucking cops or management. I am a fucking Anarchist communist and I work and try to organize industrial unions, I fight for tenants rights always finishing with the fact that landlordism is a crime. I back up my people against police, I fight Nazis try to help out the homeless and drug addicts in my community and try to build a group with what we got with our class and the people around us which is slow work until someone is pissed off. I have sat down and talked to runners about how they are getting fucked and also passed shit on. And eventually all this pays off even if I don't see it just like the Anarchist in Spain who where working on that shit for almost a century am I right (someone told me that)? a lot of stuff I read but a lot of education is done orally here which I think is awesome as long as the people saying shit are accurate. fuck this came out more as a rant
but I got to emotional.

banpen
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Sep 26 2009 08:34

On subculture and identity, what is the position on using the word 'comrade' in your country?

gypsy
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Sep 26 2009 11:06

In the Uk. I have heard it used by all groups on the left.

Hungry56
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Sep 26 2009 11:22

Who are you asking, do you mean in the U.K? I think they use the word comrade, I've seen some use it on the forum.

In Australia class-struggle anarchists use the term, I think cultural stuff like that can help lessen alienation, or build solidarity.

Maybe it's different in post-soviet countries. In Hungary during the rev, they replaced the word comrade with the Hungarian word for "friend."

gypsy
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Sep 26 2009 12:54

I know the labour party in britain used to use it. Ummm i searched wikipedia and found this
"In the United Kingdom, the term comrade is strongly associated with Communism and the Soviet Union unless it is used in relation to the military, as a result it is avoided by most political parties. It is still used as a form of address among members of the Communist Party of Britain, smaller parties of the left, and a declining number of Labour Party members. Use of the term is generally restricted to people with whom the speaker agrees politically. It is usually written in full, the abbreviation "Cde" being associated with southern African usage. The honorific terms "sister" and "brother", also declining in usage, are more politically inclusive, encompassing everyone from the centre-left to the far-left, without necessarily indicating complete political agreement. All three terms are occasionally used in a mocking or patronising manner by political opponents. The term was also often used amongst British Fascists in the 1930s; the anthem of the British Union of Fascists started with the words "Comrades, the voices of the dead battalions..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comrade

Boris Badenov
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Sep 26 2009 15:11
banpen wrote:
On subculture and identity, what is the position on using the word 'comrade' in your country?

I think it's pretty silly and dated, and sounds forced in most cases. Also, in ex-stalinist countries, "comrade" was what you had to address everyone with at all times (even the fucking bureaucrats and party lackeys who were anything but your comrades) so most people there tend to be really put off by the term (in Eastern Europe usually a variation of the Russian tovarish).

Quote:
In Hungary during the rev, they replaced the word comrade with the Hungarian word for "friend."

I think the most democratic practice is to just call everyone by their given names.

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smg
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Sep 26 2009 15:48

I use the term comrade jokingly with my political friends. I dont think it serves any other purpose other than hilarity.

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Tojiah
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Sep 26 2009 18:02

The terms used in Israel, if at all, is "haver"/"havera", the Hebrew for "friend" (male/female). Only the commies and members of kibbutz use it, and even they limit it to formal meetings; otherwise, given names are the rule. It is, however, highly common in colloquial speech to call people "brother/sister" as a greeting when you don't know them, such as "hey, brother, what time is it?", but it's considered vulgar (as in, indicative of lack of refinement).

Hungry56
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Sep 26 2009 22:23

Usually it's only used among anarchists as shorthand for 'a member of our group' e.g ' a comrade is going to the Sydney forum' or used jokingly. Trotskyists use it a lot more.

banpen
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Sep 26 2009 23:03

That's what I've found; when I've been with new/interested people at left gatherings, using the terms comrade and proletariat always brings up the "In Russia, stage plays you!" images. I like the term, but I've always found it symbolizes the divide between normal / left clique.

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Anarchia
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Sep 27 2009 04:15
Hungry56 wrote:
Usually it's only used among anarchists as shorthand for 'a member of our group' e.g ' a comrade is going to the Sydney forum' or used jokingly. Trotskyists use it a lot more.

I'd hope no comrade of yours would go to the Sydney Forum! Unless for an antifa protest outside, of course wink

Hungry56
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Sep 27 2009 05:59

hahaha oops, I was thinking of that recent forum on the economic crisis in Sydney, not the 'Sydney Forum' (a far right gathering). No-one from Adelaide went to either.

Spassmaschine
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Sep 27 2009 09:17

Hey Hungry56, is there any news about how the big south australian activismism weekend went?

Hungry56
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Sep 27 2009 11:39

There was a coal train on it's way to the power station, and they stopped the train because they knew there was gonna be protestors. Not sure how long the train was delayed for. The campers just did a march to the power station, as the train was already stopped. I'm not sure yet if there's been much media coverage, I hardly watch tv. Dunno how effective the whole thing was, it would need media coverage to be effective as it was mainly supposed to encourage direct action, I think.

The weather all of a sudden became insanely cold and rainy a few days ago, and a comrade who was there got sick and has lost his voice! The other anarchists who were there I haven't talked to yet, but they're probably all sick too. Thankfully I didn't go - I had a week off work a couple of weeks back cos I was sick, so I didn't want to take more days off work (the camp started on Thursday).

Gabs will probably do a post about it on the oceania forum.

Spassmaschine
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Sep 27 2009 12:55

Cool, cheers.

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Farce
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Sep 27 2009 14:23

Some people I know say "chumrade" as a less formal version of comrade. I think it'd be a shame if we got rid of it altogether - not that I'm that attached to the word, but I think the concept is important, because it does carry different meanings to just a "friend".

gypsy
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Sep 27 2009 15:36

thinking about it, it does seem outdated. However these days when class consciousness is forgotten by many it is nice to hear occasionally. eek

Wellclose Square
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Sep 27 2009 19:19

I'm with Farce and Allybaba on 'comrade' - it's a more specific term than 'friend', and still has a core of 'good' associations beyond the Stalinist/Trotskyist baggage. While it can be unwise to invert the prejudices of 'the enemy', being referred to sarcastically as 'comrade' by a secret policeman is a reminder of what the stakes are. I've got a pretty negative view of the term, 'colleague', because of its association with postmodern managerialism, 'team-working', 'team-building', etc. Even in the military, I think the officer class are moving away from the use of 'comrade' - on a recent news report I saw an officer referring to soldiers supporting other 'team-members'.

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x349429
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Sep 28 2009 03:30

For me I use comrade or companero if I am in certain groups of people and others I do not. some I use fellow worker instead whatever works. If it distracts the point you should avoid it. personally I like comrade, but whatever it is more about conveying the solidarity and unity that is symbolized than being stuck on a single word.