Anarchist black cross support Leninists

I would say it has something to do with anarchists being for prison abolition. I wouldn't really call the BPP "anti-working class" considering they did a lot of solid organizing in building class power and autonomy. Were their politics off? Yes, but their practice was lively and innovative, and something we can learn from. A better question is -- why weren't anarchists active in the black and brown communities, because if they were it may have been an anarchist federation rather than a maoist-insprired leninist group doing that organizing.

At any rate, standing in solidarity with all prisoners is important because all prisons suck. Not only that, but it's pretty obvious Mumia was put away as the result of a white supremacist system. Having listened to various interviews and read some of his written work, I think the man has a lot of solid ideas and some not so solid ones. The bad stuff doesn't mean I think he should be imprisoned.

That's a strawman and a half. Are you really comparing the BPP to the KKK? Really??

I think anarchism is liberation, I think specifically libertarian communism is true liberation, but that does not mean I only work with libertarian communists or do work that serves them. Why do work with anyone who doesn't hold onto a pure, untarnished (sarcasm there) theory? Most prisoners are not anarchists, so why does anarchist black cross bother at all to support anyone?

You have to meet people where they're at.

Anti-repression work is important for a number of reasons. First off, in the case of the us, we have a unique history of white supremacy as a driving force behind capital. I'm not going to quote prison statistics at you, but it should be obvious the communities that suffer the most state repression are black and brown. The anarchist milieu in the us is overwhelmingly white and male, and a recent essay by Gayge Operaista explores the idea that that is largely the result of the type of work we do. I've also written about an anarchist strategy that puts combatting patriarchy and specifically white supremacy on the forefront of what we do to build a better composition within our ranks. I would feel dumb quoting my own work so I won't but I think people have put it on libcom (also Gayge is way smarter than me).

Most workers are not anarchists ? Why support them Soften ?

Don't really understand why you care. Are you in an ABC branch? Were you? Do you want to be? If the answer to all 3 is 'No', I don't get where you are coming from. ABC supports political prisoners, which includes leftists we might not agree with. I don't see the problem with this. A lot of the struggles these folks were once a part of are done and gone. Sometimes there's no one else there. Also, there have been a number of prisoners, some of them former BPP, that have become anarchists or sympathetic because of the good work people have done. Not to mention its a way to build links to prisoners, who, as we've seen in California and Georgia recently, have their own struggles, too.

Honestly you come off as a foaming at the mouth wingnut. Comparing the BPP to the KKK is just lunacy and a good way to get people to just stop engaging with you, which is exactly what's I'm going to do starting now.

agree with juan and lou...

the anarchist black cross is a prisoner support group for all prisoners not just for anarchist political prisoners.

anarchists don't think we make anarchy by making everyone an anarchist or defending communities and organizations of only anarchists...we want freedom and the self-emancipation of the vast majority of the working class and oppressed.

O.o

As some LibCom admins and posters have found, the most important thing when discussing prisoner support is to keep a cool head.

Sarcasm.

Alright then, I'll give this as a go as I'm ill and have fuck all else happening on my Sunday..

The first thing I'd say here is that prison support work is often very messy and I'm not sure how exactly I would engage with it, generally (for instance, I'm unsure about providing 'support' - not even sure what that means tbh - for those inside for non-political things i.e. if I went to prison on a drugs charge I wouldn't expect support from the anarchist movement).. however, from your quote, there's one bit that doesn't quite sit with me. Basically when you say..

..you're comparing someone who has done something terrible (blowing up an abortion clinic, stabbing an immigrant) to someone who supports governments who have done something terrible (supports the Chinese government, North Korea etc).. you can't compare the two, imo..

As for BPP are the same as the KKK.. hmm, I think you know the difference here. Class struggle is not just about the final goal but also about building class power now. When you go to a demonstration or picket line, you could well be alongside people who have strange (or even offensive, depending where you come from) ideas about foreign dictatorships. But if it kicks off and someone gets sent down for fighting with scabs/police/whatever, I think you should support them on that basis rather than withold support because they have the incorrect line on North Korea. Same goes for the BPP, for all their faults (which a lot of people, especially me when I was younger, like to gloss over), they did a lot to build working class power in their day.. I'm not sure what the KKK have ever done to build working class power, however..

~ 20 years ago, I have also supported members of Jehovah's Witnesses who have suffered harsh prison sentences for not doing national service in Greece, italy and Hungary and I supported self-identified liberals and christian-democrats from Zaire against the threat of deportation from Germany to their home country

I actually think there is a big problem with anarchists either not being interested in or just ignoring the needs of social prisoners for support. First of, it assumes their crime is in someway not political. I think that's a liberal attitude towards it, that claims that politics is only found in doing super cool shit like black bloc or whatever, and generally lacks a critique of everyday life.

Second, I think its important because anarchists should also think and reflect upon punishment for anti-social behavior in their post-revolutionary vision. There are very real issues we have to grapple with, such as dealing with rapists or murderers. Since prisons, we acknowledge, are undesirable, what do we do with people like them? Take them out back behind the chemical shed?

The specific instance you note, of a drug deal, why wouldn't you expect support from anarchists? You should! That's totally a bullshit charge and, in my opinion, clearly a political issue.

So far as work around prison work goes, I think you're right in that even though I've done some minor work with it, I don't really know the best way to support prisoners (though honestly just asking them what they need is a good place to start). And being separated by prison means we can only play a limited role. I think only doing prisoner support work is foolhardy anyways. It should play a role in organizing that builds power, but it won't be an end-all-be-all since prisons will continue to exist until we abolish them (this all is generally why I think activism doesn't work).

@ Softens

I set up an ABC group in Newcastle 20 years ago - probably when every large city had one. There were 3 committed members with a couple of others prepared to help. In that time we supported some pretty dubious characters that in truth I wouldn't touch with a barge pole on a social level. Why? Because we believed they were fitted up. Finding anarchists in prison to support was surprisingly tough! So, yes, the ABC does support some odd-bods - but if these people are fitted up, then they usually get the thumbs up. Also, the ABC supports class-struggle prisoners - people you might not agree with politically.
The ABC back then was an easy target to criticise being essentially cells of people who chose to do whatever they wanted in the name of the ABC - a big part of my reason for leaving.
If you want to change it - you have to join. But it's testing work and requires great patience and resolve, imo.

Hmm, a lot to respond to here and I feel there are a couple of words being used that I'm not sure we're using in the same way.. like, say, 'support'.. what is 'support'? Is it sending in books/magazines etc? Is it providing legal advice? Is it paying legal fees? Is it campaigning for release?

The other one is 'political'.. so you say getting sent down for drug dealing would be a 'political issue' and in a sense I agree (lack of opportunities leading to drug dealing, disproportionate targeting of low-end street dealers etc). But its massively different from someone in prison for an illegal strike or beating up a nazi or whatever.. the first is political in as much as our existence is political, the second is about struggle against the nature of that existence.

As for this..

I would expect my friends who are anarchists to support me, but then I'd expect support from non-anarchist friends as well.. stuff like sending me letters, books, magazines etc.. but what more support should an anarchist organisation give me? Should they pay for my lawyer? Campaign for my release?

My instinct (though I'm not certain on this by any means) is to say no to both just coz there are absolutely SHITLOADS of people in prison and as a movement we just don't have the resources.

That's not to say that I'm against supporting prisoners (that would be mental). Those in prison for participation in struggle should get full support from the movement (legal fees, advice, campaigns, letters, everything); those inside for crimes unrelated to struggles I guess would be more case-by-case, depending on the crime, depending on the person, the relationship built up with them over time etc but for starters, I'd say sending them stuff to read and establishing regular contact would be enough.

Another problem related to this, which I think you mentioned, is the specific crime. Rapists and paedophiles would seem off-limits to everyone, I think. What about murderers? Burglars? Heroin and crack dealers? I don't have any hard rules for any of these cases (and maybe you can't make them) but its a fucking difficult set of questions in any case..

The thing with this though, is that prisoner support is fucking hard work, even with quite a small number to support. The stakes are massive as letting prisoners down is a huge failure. And if you're gonna be doing prisoner support for any prisoner who comes to you, I think its inevitable that you'll be doing it full-time.

Like you say, prisoner support is a part of our movement. But exactly how it gets done is the really important part, I think.

I feel like you didn't read the paragraph after the one that you put in bold as I think it relates directly to what you're asking here. I'd also re-read Entdinglichung's post about this as well, as they said in about 60 words what I tried to say in 600..

Ed - although it's a constant debate, the line on smack dealers was that they fitted into the box marked anti-social criminals and the rule was they weren't supported. It could be different now...

@ Ed --

Right on, I agree with everything you've said in that last post. You mentioned defining support, and I think that is an important thing to consider (I don't have the answer to this, but I think some of the things you mention are part of what it means to support).

Another part of anti-prison/pro-prisoner work I think is not adequately developed is around the economic exploitation they face. I remember, maybe a year ago, reading about in Mississippi in the US that state authorities were clamping down on undocumented migrant workers, but then putting them back to work in the fields as prisoners. Admittedly I did not follow this story well, and I don't know what's happening there now, but the scenario seemed nightmarish to say the least.

At any rate, I don't mean to cop-out on an answer for a lot of your questions but the truth is I don't know a good answer to a lot of them, and I adamantly believe in collectively coming to a course of action, so I'd say my lone analysis would not do the issue justice. I can say though, I think a serious effort to fight back against repression will take significant self-organization within prisons themselves. We would probably do well to study groups that organized in prison and how they did this (the BPP is one of those groups, coincidentally).

Since this seemed somewhat interesting, I figured I'd throw out the idea of a need to support prisoners in general, including white supremacists if they accept our assistance. One can give criticism of national liberation and white supremacy. One can also express the need for prison abolition at the same time, open up the possibility of prison gangs needing to break down the barriers of their political views.

White supremacy in prison often is very powerful and makes it difficult for people with developing contrary views to break from the flock. Some feel compelled to join ideologies of authority and/or hate for protection in prison, but to open the door could be beneficial to breaking away inside the prison system or outside when free of such influences.

I don't know, I don't give prisoner support and if I did, I'd rather support anarchists, but if resources can be generated by supporting prisoners in general, the best way to show this general support is by giving critical support, offering prisoners materials that debunk authoritarian mindsets if they are willing to accept such material.

However, as an anarchist, if a Leninist was in prison for attempting a political coup, attacking anarchists or attacking things anarchists support, I'd rather support be given to someone else, just as I would feel towards white supremacists.

I'd agree that often times, if one is in jail for hate crimes as a white supremacist, there are others that would be better suited to receive support with limited resources. At the same time, Leninists in prison for political crimes tend to be in there for things that aren't "enemy" behaviors, so I wouldn't block support of them if people really wanted to give support.

Democratic and Republican politicians would probably not ever receive support for their political activities. However, I could see supporting a democrat that performed a political crime for the purposes of helping poor people. I could also see supporting a republican that performed a political crime in the name of helping individual freedom if it also somehow was aimed at helping exploited or oppressed people.

A democratic politician in jail for blocking the closing of a soup kitchen, a republican in jail for vigilante violence against government agents who were locking up people in drug war sweeps could happen. On the other hand, main stream political types tend to have broader bases of support that don't need anarchist support and probably would reject it.

I don't know if this helps, but to be for prison abolition means accepting some of the worst consequences of such a position as well as the best. Challenging ones views for prison abolition doesn't just mean supporting people locked away because of laws many people think are stupid. It is a complete view, otherwise a prison abolition view is not tenable.

@ Softens
Leave aside your comments about dealers; if what you're saying is you'd only support people of the same political persuasion as yourself then you should brace yourself for diminishing returns.

Softens, I'm not at all sure about what you're saying.. I mean, yeah, your average smack dealer is probably from a working class background, but they're fucking up their own community and class with what they're doing.

Whereas you'll meet Leninists who are also working class and active in their workplaces, building our class' collective strength and self-confidence.. I mean, they'll probably also do shite stuff like saying 'Vote Labour', 'trust the union' etc but there have been a fair amount of Leninists who've done some great organising (all the US car factory workers who joined the Community Party, the League of Revolutionary Black Workers, Lotta Continua etc etc the list is endless.. shit, I've even met British Trots who do great workplace organising!)..

But from your post above, it seems to me that you'd rather do prisoner support for a smack dealer sent down for selling heroin in their community (because in another reality you think they would've been part of the working poor) than a Leninist taking part in an illegal strike (because in another reality you think they would be sending anarchists to the gulags).

But the important thing isn't other 'realities', its this one. And if you go to prison standing up for your/our class interests, then its our duty to stand with you regardless of your opinions on formerly existing dictatorships, I reckon.

Yeah, fair enough.. there's actually a poster on libcom who I think does a lot of prisoner support work (anarchistsolidarity), and I'd be interested to hear their opinion on this..