Animal Rights: Where the action is?

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Hughes's picture
Hughes
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May 29 2010 01:01

Round and round we go.

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Tarwater
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May 29 2010 01:03
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That said I think Kaczynski's victims were mostly individuals whose crimes were much worse than his own in terms of human suffering and misery generated.

Care to address this?

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May 29 2010 01:05
Hughes wrote:
They want trophy bucks with twelve point antlers.

Alright, no one here is defending the macho, sado-sexual hunting culture promoted by hunting magazines and other voices of the sporting goods industry. However there's a huge leap from "Dudes who want trophy bucks with twelve point antlers are immature assholes" to "We should have a society were no one is allowed to hunt animals or grow animals for meat!"

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May 29 2010 01:09

I think we better call it quits. Its beginning to feel a bit masturbatory; I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me.

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May 29 2010 01:53
Tarwater wrote:
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That said I think Kaczynski's victims were mostly individuals whose crimes were much worse than his own in terms of human suffering and misery generated.

Care to address this?

Keep in mind I'm not an expert on the case, and due to Kaczynski's tactically irresponsible and unethical methods I think it is very likely he could have injured innocents as well, but....

-US soldiers and campus police who participate in the exploitation of their class
-A computer scientist who was perpetuating the exploitation of his class-brethren by researching and developing new instruments of capitalist surveillance and control. (He also wrote an essay entitled "Americanism - & Its Enemies")
-Genetic researchers who were similarly betraying their class by perpetuating the expansion of valorization via the cataloging and exploiting of the microcosm by the bourgeoisie, for the specific purpose of tightening control over the thoiling masses
-Small business owners (computer stores) who exploit the working-class via employment
-An executive of Burson-Marsteller, a.k.a. a bourgeois enemy of humanity
-the California Forestry Association president, another bourgeois enemy of humanity

The most unethical action he took was attempting to blow up a commercial airplane full of random passengers. It is fortunate he did not succeed, although however heinous his actions were they pale in comparison to the misery and toil inflicted upon humanity and earth by the bourgeois commercial air-transportation industry.

Again this is not me ethically condoning his actions, (I am a pacifist) but rather pointing out how the moral hysteria generated around the case (even among the radical left) is clearly an example of kicking someone who was alienated and crushed by capitalist exploitation enough to lash out at the powerful. (Akin to the equally hypocritical hysteria generated around school-shooters who are simply misdirecting legitimate anger over the forced association of their scholastic enslavement)

Among the working-class in Virginia there are folk songs lionizing Mr. Kaczynski's actions...this is not simply out of popular "misanthropy" or "primitivism" but also has to do with the dynamics of capital and class.

bootsy
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May 29 2010 03:25
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Look, I don't have the time to research every random example you guys throw at me.

This is such a blatant cop-out its not even funny. The problem is that your abstract moral assertions about animal rights necessarily have real world consequences i.e. if we're not allowed to kill possums there is every possibility of environmental catastrophe.

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May 29 2010 03:34
jesuithitsquad wrote:
why in fuck's name would anyone intentionally introduce such a disgusting, horrible animal?

C'mon now, they're cute...

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jesuithitsquad
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May 29 2010 04:23
Nyarlathotep wrote:
Tarwater wrote:
Quote:
That said I think Kaczynski's victims were mostly individuals whose crimes were much worse than his own in terms of human suffering and misery generated.

Care to address this?

Keep in mind I'm not an expert on the case, and due to Kaczynski's tactically irresponsible and unethical methods I think it is very likely he could have injured innocents as well, but....

-US soldiers and campus police who participate in the exploitation of their class
-A computer scientist who was perpetuating the exploitation of his class-brethren by researching and developing new instruments of capitalist surveillance and control. (He also wrote an essay entitled "Americanism - & Its Enemies")
-Genetic researchers who were similarly betraying their class by perpetuating the expansion of valorization via the cataloging and exploiting of the microcosm by the bourgeoisie, for the specific purpose of tightening control over the thoiling masses
-Small business owners (computer stores) who exploit the working-class via employment
-An executive of Burson-Marsteller, a.k.a. a bourgeois enemy of humanity
-the California Forestry Association president, another bourgeois enemy of humanity

The most unethical action he took was attempting to blow up a commercial airplane full of random passengers. It is fortunate he did not succeed, although however heinous his actions were they pale in comparison to the misery and toil inflicted upon humanity and earth by the bourgeois commercial air-transportation industry.

Again this is not me ethically condoning his actions, (I am a pacifist) but rather pointing out how the moral hysteria generated around the case (even among the radical left) is clearly an example of kicking someone who was alienated and crushed by capitalist exploitation enough to lash out at the powerful. (Akin to the equally hypocritical hysteria generated around school-shooters who are simply misdirecting legitimate anger over the forced association of their scholastic enslavement)

Among the working-class in Virginia there are folk songs lionizing Mr. Kaczynski's actions...this is not simply out of popular "misanthropy" or "primitivism" but also has to do with the dynamics of capital and class.

yeah, see this is the type of rationalization i was worried about when you started up on kaczynski. sure some of them were baddies but the quick dismissal of the failed airplane bombing and then completely overlooking the random nature of some of his attacks (picking some victims simply because of their last names in an attempt to send investigators on wild goose chases) begins to read like some form of critical support.

the point about schmitt was he isn't known to have killed anyone, despite his fucked up ideas, but i don't defend people quoting him. i'm only pointing out the false analogy you've created.

serious about the possums? i get chills when i see them. it's mostly irrational though is suppose.

bootsy
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May 29 2010 04:35
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serious about the possums? i get chills when i see them. it's mostly irrational though is suppose.

They can be vicious little fuckers.

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jesuithitsquad
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May 29 2010 04:38

right that's what i thought.

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May 29 2010 05:02
jesuithitsquad wrote:
begins to read like some form of critical support.

Obviously I am not supporting Kaczynski but his detractors are mostly expressing their own resentment for being as twisted and ineffectual as he was.

jesuithitsquad wrote:
the quick dismissal of the failed airplane bombing

Well, except I don't think I dismissed it so much as pointed out that I thought it was unethical and am glad his plot did not succeed. At the same time we cannot ignore the fact that the industry as it operates is more destructive. It's similar to the context of American jingoists whining about Libyan terrorist attacks and ignoring the atrocities their favorite political state has committed against the people of Libya.

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picking some victims simply because of their last names in an attempt to send investigators on wild goose chases

As I said, I'm not an expert on the case. More information on this particular angle would be appreciated. I know he harassed/attacked a couple of R&D academics who happened to be related to each other, is that what you're referencing? To my knowledge the only time he targeted civilians was the airport bombings, which, again, were disgusting.

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the point about schmitt was he isn't known to have killed anyone, despite his fucked up ideas

So it's better to assume a position of power and comfort in a genocidal political state than to get blood on your own hands? I don't follow your rationale...

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but i don't defend people quoting him.

It's utterly moronic to maintain that one can only quote intellectuals whose political ideas happen to directly correspond with one's own. All that creates is a stagnant milieu devoid of intellectual rigor and paralyzed with fear of reevaluating our ideas and subjecting them to the test of scrutiny. I would say it would be an utterly disastrous endeavor to attempt to study either tactics or political theory and gain any coherent grasp of the subject while only limiting oneself to sources from the libertarian left.

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i'm only pointing out the false analogy you've created.

To me the analogy isn't false...the conclusion of this mentality is the politically correct sensitization of the literature. I mean it was obvious given the context of my post that I was using the callous apathy of Kaczynski's ideas to provoke cognitive dissonance among greens and highlight the subtle depravity of naturalist essentialist ideologies such as veganism. However you seem concerned with the notion that public discourse needs to be shielded from evil ideas.

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serious about the possums? i get chills when i see them. it's mostly irrational though is suppose.

Well, don't worry about it, I'm the same way about ants.

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May 29 2010 05:18

I know that picking out one aspect of a post and nailing it is counterproductive at least in it extends the post number to a ridiculous amount, I have to learn a better way of doing this...

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To my knowledge the only time he targeted civilians was the airport bombings, which, again, were disgusting.

There were a couple of grad students in there too, if I recall...It ridiculous to try to rehabilitate him even 1%. This wasn't some desperate prole fighting against the system, he rejected the resources available to him (as a Harvard grad and gifted, respected mathematician) to wage a desperate, suicidal revenge against a conspiracy he couldn't identify. And he made us all look mental in the process.

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May 29 2010 05:31

Since we are both "picking out one aspect of a post and nailing it", are you saying that academics aren't part of the working-class?

I agree that he "wage[d] a desperate, suicidal revenge" - however, that doesn't make it somehow naughty to study his intellectual ideas unless you have the same approach to the study of political theory that perhaps an Evangelical Christian would have towards reading Harry Potter.

Again this was never intended as a defense of his actions, which were both unethical and tactically unsound, but rather pointing out that the moral condemnation is hypocritical from a milieu that finds a clever excuse to denounce any act of contemporary violence against the capitalist state. Thus there's no seriousness to the tactical or ethical discussion at hand, it's only a deafening percussion of self-righteous and politically correct platitudes.

Also I believe the grad student was injured (albeit not badly) by a letter bomb intended for another engineer or R&D academic, I could be wrong about that, again, I'm not an expert on the case. Again, another indication that the man had a very irresponsible approach to taking revenge on capitalist society.

To say "it ridiculous to try to rehabilitate him even 1%" however is clearly also callous and absurd considering we're talking about someone who was mentally ill....(albeit no more so than the rest of society)

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May 29 2010 05:54
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are you saying that academics aren't part of the working-class?

I wasn't trying to say that...One can often be a part (apart) of the working class and actively work against it's emancipation, as Ted did. I'm sure you know that so...

Also, why would it be "callous and absurd" to rehabilitate mentally unsound actions? We don't need to argue about this, you already said three times you aren't that familiar...

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May 29 2010 06:36
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Also, why would it be "callous and absurd" to rehabilitate mentally unsound actions?

It's not, but this is our fundamental disagreement: What was mentally unsound, though, about his specific actions, was his carelessness in regards to tactical precision, (which reflected an ethical callousness on his part) and his inability to relate tactical offensives to the broader strategic picture of building up a broad positive social power. Not that he was a violent terrorist who gave anarchists a bad name or whatever....

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you already said three times you aren't that familiar...

At the same time no one else on this forum seems to be an expert on the subject either.

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May 29 2010 06:53
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carelessness in regards to tactical precision

= blowing up petit-bourgeoisie and

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his inability to relate tactical offensives to the broader strategic picture of building up a broad positive social power

= anti-working class, substitutionalism, stupid, arrogant, whatever. These things were mentally unsound and also gave everyone contra society/business as usual a bad name. Part and parcel, where is the argument again?

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May 29 2010 07:08
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anti-working class, substitutionalism

These criticisms don't hit the nail on the head.

To say Kaczynski was "anti-working class" is only true insofar as he was a misanthrope. (And misanthropy is not some ideological evil, it's an affliction no different than alcoholism or bulimia) To be "working-class" is not to have a certain ideological position or moral attitude but to be among the majority of humanity which is objectively materially exploited by capitalism. (Kaczynski would be among this group obviously) To criticize anyone one disagrees with as "anti-working class" is simply intellectual lazy. Better to say he was helplessly anti-social and leave it at that.

"Substitutionalism" is a similarly absurd concept invented by those among the communist left who don't understand the role of the proletarian vanguard in imposing communism.

Whether or not he gave anti-establishment political philosophy a bad name is yet to be seen. He actually inspired a lot of confused young workers. But what's more important (since our enemies will always generate negative publicity around our actions regardless...look at what they did to Dr. King who was a total pacifist) is that his tactics were not effective and should not be emulated.

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May 29 2010 11:35
bootsy wrote:
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Look, I don't have the time to research every random example you guys throw at me.

This is such a blatant cop-out its not even funny. The problem is that your abstract moral assertions about animal rights necessarily have real world consequences i.e. if we're not allowed to kill possums there is every possibility of environmental catastrophe.

I don't have time. I'm sorry if that sounds like a cop out. All I can say is that I am philosophically opposed to killing animals unnecessarily. We may disagree on what constitutes necessity, but I'd argue that since we wouldn't deal with human overpopulation by upping the death rate, we shouldn't deal with animal overpopulation with upping the death rate either.

We have a fundamental disagreement in regard to our ethical duties toward animals, so continuing this debate will likely lead nowhere.

gypsy
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May 29 2010 11:40
Hughes wrote:
bootsy wrote:
Quote:
Look, I don't have the time to research every random example you guys throw at me.

This is such a blatant cop-out its not even funny. The problem is that your abstract moral assertions about animal rights necessarily have real world consequences i.e. if we're not allowed to kill possums there is every possibility of environmental catastrophe.

I don't have time. I'm sorry if that sounds like a cop out. All I can say is that I am philosophically opposed to killing animals unnecessarily. We may disagree on what constitutes necessity, but I'd argue that since we wouldn't deal with human overpopulation by upping the death rate, we shouldn't deal with animal overpopulation with upping the death rate either.

We have a fundamental disagreement in regard to our ethical duties toward animals, so continuing this debate will likely lead nowhere.

The thing is Hughes, sometimes it is necessary to kill animals.

30bananasaday
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May 29 2010 12:21
bootsy wrote:
Hughes here in NZ we have a huge problem with possums, they were introduced from Aus and without any natural predators the population exploded. They are now pretty much stripping the forests bare. Is it okay to hunt possums?

Please don't just say 'they should have never been introduced in the first place' because they were introduced and now we have to deal with it. Likewise your suggestion about contraception seems a little far fetched unless you are able to actually point to the technology which makes large scale sterilization of possums a feasible option.

Come on now, this example is a distraction from the issue. I don't know what Hughes or other animal rights activists think, but it seems to me that one could perfectly well think that it is ok to kill possums in the instance you mention, but still want to refrain from making the decision to buy dead animals when one walks into the supermarket or oppose activities such as fox hunting which are tantamount to torturing animals for pleasure. It seems to me that you are attempting to draw out the most absolutist, quasi-religious aspects of the animal liberation movement, in order to knock said movement down, rather than engaging in an open debate which might have the potential to actually be constructive.

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Jun 1 2010 19:52
Hughes wrote:
I'd argue that since we wouldn't deal with human overpopulation by upping the death rate, we shouldn't deal with animal overpopulation with upping the death rate either.

Which is the problem, you view humans and animals as literally the same....