More tedious "reverse racism" whining

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meerov21
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Apr 20 2018 20:15
More tedious "reverse racism" whining

Anti-Semitic and racist "protests" by American students.

...Identity politics takes over representation of members of their group as ultimate victims of society. As such victims, they demand benefits from their victimhood and see any criticism as intolerant hate speech. How is it possible that you can criticize a victim who fights for their life? Wouldn’t the victim always be right, and whatever they did – all is justified?

In November 2015, I got caught up in the midst of some violent student protests at one of the East Coast Ivy League universities. The protests started because someone had not banned Halloween costumes, which could have offended the feelings of some minorities. It quickly escalated into a powerful, though sometimes grotesque unrest on the ground of racial and gender identity politics. Students organized a “primal scream”. Marchers cried, screamed and berated their professors.

At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space....

Activists demanded to dilute the too "White" faculty, to introduce mandatory courses on "cultural and racial tolerance", to remove from the list of works of the University of "dead white men" and replace them with the works of blacks, women and gay authors.

I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”.

I got a similar reaction, when I tried to talk to protesters at Columbia University and the New York University.

The whole generation of college administrators and lecturers has grown a on the concept of intersectionality (unity of interests of all oppressed minorities against the White-male-hetero-cis privileges). For half a century, along with serious research, whole departments of racial, African-American, female, gender and other studies have been developing ideologies, concepts and platforms of identity discourse and preparing their cadres.

The “new” in these protests was, that the Islamist identity was openly added to the list of persecuted intersectional racial and gender minorities. Islamist, because Islamism is an implementation of Muslim religious identity in politics.

Full text is available here
http://www.ng.ru/ng_religii/2017-03-15/12_417_usa.html

Michael Dorfman (Russian-American-Israeli journalist)

Fleur
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Apr 20 2018 20:29

You really are determined to be the poor oppressed white dude, aren't you?

comrade_emma
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Apr 21 2018 15:31

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meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 00:15

"At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space...."

comrade_emma
Sounds like good praxis.

Some people have long convinced me here https://libcom.org/forums/theory/black-white-racists-both-are-disgusting-10032018 that there are no or very few supporters of racist attacks against white men among anarchists....

"I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual. When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”."

comrade_emma
Again, I am doubtful of his version since he is clearly very biased. What were the "explicit anti-Semitic statements"?

Now you're trying to justify anti-Semitism! The accusation of an elderly Jewish immigrant that "he had killed Palestinians" (on the grounds that he just had come from Israel) was an act of blatant anti-Semitism!

His people and the people of my parents have suffered from the Holocaust, and I will not be tolerant of anti-Semites.

meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 00:14

Fleur
You really are determined to be the poor oppressed white dude, aren't you?

You directly insulted me using abusive language when discussing the topic of racism elsewhere on this forum https://libcom.org/forums/theory/black-white-racists-both-are-disgusting-10032018?page=4 , so you don't deserve me talking to you. But I reserve the right to comment on your statements, if I deem it necessary.

comrade_emma
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Apr 21 2018 15:32

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Fleur
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Apr 21 2018 00:32

You are absolutely definitely want to be the oppressed white dude. I said your opinions on racism are reactionary and bigoted. That's not abusive language, it's simply a statement of facts as I see them. Now if you want to feel abused and oppressed for being pulled up on your reactionary opinions, off you go and lick your wounds. It's pretty much what you want anyway, feeling so discriminated against as a cis white man. There's a whole big club of sad white men, rattling off their mewling complaints because the whole world doesn't revolve around them. The guy you posted up is a member. Tbh, it's just pretty damn boring.

meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 02:15

comrade_emma
I am not making excuses for anti-semitism

Of course you did. You justify anti-Semitism. You justify the dirty anti-Semites who attacked an elderly Jew only because he came from Israel and accused him of "killing Palestinians".

Furthermore, do you genuinely believe that the state of Israel can exist without the murdering of Palestinians,

The state of Israel (like many other States) has done much evil. Of course, I, as supporter of classless and stateless society know that. I'm not going to defend the state of Israel. But it has absolutely nothing to do with anti-Semitic insults. State policy has nothing to do with this man. He's a journalist, not a politician or a banker.

comrade_emma
he hates these students, their identity, the fact that they want their own spaces

Oh no! This man is very kind and does not hate them. But These people wanted to expel people of a different race from the University space and insulted Jews.

Me:
Some people have long convinced me here https://libcom.org/forums/theory/black-white-racists-both-are-disgusting-10032018 that there are no or very few supporters of racist attacks against white men among anarchists....

comrade_emma
There is no racism against "white men" because white men can not suffer from racism

Tell that fiction and the left nonsense to me. I lived in Israel, along with million of Ashkenazim from the former USSR. My superiors, the Eastern Jews (Moroccan, Iraqi), underpaid me and thousands of other Ashkenaz, forced me to work 12 hours and used racist insults against us. However, this does not negate the fact that other Ashkenazy oppressed workers-Moroccan.
Racism against "white men" exists: there were examples of this.

comrade_emma
I am not an anarchist

Great!

meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 02:24

Fleur
You are absolutely definitely want to be the oppressed white dude. I said your opinions on racism are reactionary and bigoted. That's not abusive language, it's simply a statement of facts as I see them. Now if you want to feel abused and oppressed for being pulled up on your reactionary opinions, off you go and lick your wounds. It's pretty much what you want anyway, feeling so discriminated against as a cis white man. There's a whole big club of sad white men, rattling off their mewling complaints because the whole world doesn't revolve around them. The guy you posted up is a member. Tbh, it's just pretty damn boring.

Like I said before, I don't feel offended because entities like you can't insult me. I can't be offended by a cat or by the wind, and it's something like that, although I still have a hard time realizing that you're a human being. I just don't like being rude because it interferes with the discussion.

As for the fact that you're bored, I'm not interested in your feelings. But you have a choice. You can 1) to Read me and to be bored further 2) don't to read my texts 3) to Commit suicide. I'll take all three.

Fleur
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Apr 21 2018 03:06

Sorry dreary, but your not the first obnoxious dude on the internet to tell me to kill myself, it's staggeringly unoriginal as an insult. Like I thought, your a sniveling toad who can't deal with people disagreeing with you. You probably interpret all disagreement with abuse, no wonder you feel so put upon.

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Apr 21 2018 10:18

If someone is attacked for being an Israeli citizen (and the implied 'jewishness' that entails), whatever they may think about the Israeli state, then that can not be excused by calling it anti-zionism, or it is okay because it was a black person who said it. It's anti-semitism, pure and simple. And as anti-semitism is a form of racism, then clearly, a black person can be racist to a white person.

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Apr 21 2018 10:51
Serge Forward wrote:
If someone is attacked for being an Israeli citizen (and the implied 'jewishness' that entails), whatever they may think about the Israeli state, then that can not be excused by calling it anti-zionism, or it is okay because it was a black person who said it. It's anti-semitism, pure and simple. And as anti-semitism is a form of racism, then clearly, a black person can be racist to a white person.

Very true, but very often a good point is lost in a cascade of BS or is ignored because the person making the point is unpopular or is know to generally hold reactionary views.

meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 11:50

Serge Forward
If someone is attacked for being an Israeli citizen (and the implied 'jewishness' that entails), whatever they may think about the Israeli state, then that can not be excused by calling it anti-zionism, or it is okay because it was a black person who said it. It's anti-semitism, pure and simple.

The first time I agree with you for 100% !

P.S. Groups of people claim that those who have white skin should leave because "white is a threat to the safety of everyone else." They tell an elderly Jewish immigrant (journalist) that he" killed Palestinians " and must be removed. I quote here the witness of the known journalist about these events. Someone can reject it on the grounds that this journalist is Jewish, but now I know where anti-racists should go.

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Apr 21 2018 12:52

This article is just an assortment of the usual far-right shite about an effette, hysterical student youth unable to cope with rational debate, and how white men are the REAL victims of intolerance because people sometimes get annoyed at them and they can no longer dress up as a native american chief at halloween. If people want to read that they can just go on twitter and search for #whitegenocide or whatever that frog was called or whatever, im not sure why this nonsense needs a libcom thread?

Also, don't tell people who disagree with you on the internet to committ suicide Meerov, it just makes you look like even more of a prick. You might not care about that, but people thinking you're a contemptible piece of shit will make them less likely to be convinced by your arguments... whatever they are. That white men are the real victims and students need to man up, or something?

Also also - inb4 the thread fully devolves into the "is racism a synonym for individual prejudice or does it describe a structural phenomena?" conversation that people apparently love to have.

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Apr 21 2018 14:03

Much as I have disagreements with Meerov, the criticism of him here is very poor, ranging from 'guilt by association' (that's what the far right, alt right, etc say) to add hominem attacks on him being 'old', 'white' and a 'man'. There's also a bit of apologism for anti-semitism thrown in for good measure. I see Libcom is getting classier by the minute.

comrade_emma
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Apr 21 2018 15:32

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Fleur
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Apr 21 2018 14:43

Ironically Dorfman writes mostly about prejudice against Russian speakers in Israel, which apparently is not identity politics. However other people organizing around the oppression they receive because of their identity, be it gender or race etc, is identity politics, apparently of the bad sort.

People objecting to being belittled and demeaned by racist costumes is bad. People wanting more representation in college texts, also bad. This is clearly the wrong kind of identity politics. Identity politics which center your own language and ethnicity is good though. What nonsense.

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Apr 21 2018 14:59

It seems the left’s view of anti semitism is pretty fluid - non evidenced accusations of its disgusting ideology and practice are sometimes used to shut people down that others disagree with or simply don’t like whilst at other times it’s swept under the carpet leaving its practioners to continue to perpetuate it’s filthy ideas.
Sure, context is important but context should never be used to excuse those we have an affinity with and false accusations of anti semitism for the purpose of controlling people or outcomes is a filthy trick.

Edit: This is a general observation, I’m not here defending Meerov’s hysterics.

meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 15:49

Also, don't tell people who disagree with you on the internet to committ suicide Meerov,

This behavior of yours is just hypocrisy. This man Fleur turns me with the word "ass", after which I politely ask to pay attention to the moderator and others on this rudeness. But, all are silent. He directly wanted insulted me using abusive language when discussing the topic of racism elsewhere on this forum https://libcom.org/forums/theory/black-white-racists-both-are-disgusting-10032018?page=4

I also didn't want him to commit suicide, but only told him about this possibility. He is not the creation of which I wish for anything.

But that's not the point. Here I am referring to typical manifestations of hypocrisy. Everything is built on hypocrisy Here:

1) When a group of people demands other people of a different race, people of a different skin color, "leave the University", it's a classic racist insult. It does not matter what color of skin those who require it, they can even be dark green or purple.

2) An elderly Jew, a migrant, a journalist, is subjected to racist insults, he is told without any reason that he "killed Palestinians". And then someone else can say that he is Alt-right, that I am "alt-right" and that in General it is "hysterics". So who then dares here to talk about the correctness and antiracism? You always like to insult Jews, don't you?

Fleur
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Apr 21 2018 15:52

This entity, as you described me, is a woman actually.

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Noah Fence
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Apr 21 2018 16:01

Hey Meerov, Just for clarity, I was not implying that your view of this incident is hysterics, if you read my post properly you’ll see I was describing hypocrisy around anti semitism as you were yourself.
However, having read a number of your threads I think that your views are mostly irrational and unbalanced. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong?!!!

meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 16:01

comrade_emma It is not necessary to remove the posts from here, I have partly copied it. I will describe in detail in my articles this anti-Semitic incident. wink

meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 16:04

Noah Fence
Hey Meerov, Just for clarity, I was not implying that your view of this incident is hysterics, if you read my post properly you’ll see I was describing hypocrisy around anti semitism as you were yourself.
However, having read a number of your threads I think that your views are mostly irrational and unbalanced. That’s just my opinion, I could be wrong

Maybe I didn't understand you.

meerov21
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Apr 21 2018 16:09

Fleur
This entity, as you described me, is a woman actually.

You can be a man, a woman, a transgender and even a Martian. It doesn't give you the right to try insult people. You have to apologize for insulting me and continuing to do so even though I drew your attention to the inadmissibility of your rudeness. Otherwise take it as it is.

jolasmo
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Apr 21 2018 16:09
meerov21 wrote:
intersectionality (unity of interests of all oppressed minorities against the White-male-hetero-cis privileges)
Fleur
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Apr 21 2018 16:14

What I said was that anyone who makes jokes about trigger warnings, ie mocking somebody who has PTSD, is an ass. I stand by that. Now if you want to take my criticism of your opinions as being abusive, then that's up to you but it is indicative of the "snowflake" behavior which you find do upsetting in others. However, you just proving your own point to be fallacious. You're feeling abused and oppressed by any criticism of your opinions. That's pretty much a textbook example of why people get so irritated by white people claiming to be victims of racism and then haughtily dismissing the oppression of other groups as mere identity politics.

jolasmo
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Apr 21 2018 16:25
meerov21 wrote:
In November 2015, I got caught up in the midst of some violent student protests at one of the East Coast Ivy League universities. The protests started because someone had not banned Halloween costumes, which could have offended the feelings of some minorities. It quickly escalated into a powerful, though sometimes grotesque unrest on the ground of racial and gender identity politics. Students organized a “primal scream”. Marchers cried, screamed and berated their professors.

That isn't racist.

meerov21 wrote:
At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space....

That isn't racist.

meerov21 wrote:
Activists demanded to dilute the too "White" faculty, to introduce mandatory courses on "cultural and racial tolerance", to remove from the list of works of the University of "dead white men" and replace them with the works of blacks, women and gay authors.

That isn't racist.

meerov21 wrote:
I tried to engage, but got yelled at and told to get out, the White old male heterosexual.

That isn't racist.

meerov21 wrote:
When I told them that I was also an immigrant from Israel, they shouted at me in explicit anti-Semitic statements, screaming “How many Palestinians have you killed?”.
I got a similar reaction, when I tried to talk to protesters at Columbia University and the New York University.

That's completely reprehensible and I'm genuinely sorry you had to deal with that shit. Sadly left-wing antisemitism continues to be a problem in pretty much all sectors of leftist discourse. It's completely unacceptable. However, I'd question whether it has that much to do with contemporary anti-racist or feminist politics per se, given that this stuff has sadly been rife on the left for over a hundred years:

Bakunin wrote:
This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states, but of political opinion, this world is now, at least for the most part, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand, and of Rothschild on the other... This may seem strange. What can there be in common between socialism and a leading bank? The point is that authoritarian socialism, Marxist communism, demands a strong centralisation of the state. And where there is centralisation of the state, there must necessarily be a central bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, speculating with the Labour of the people, will be found.
meerov21 wrote:
For half a century, along with serious research, whole departments of racial, African-American, female, gender and other studies have been developing ideologies, concepts and platforms of identity discourse and preparing their cadres.

That isn't racist.

meerov21 wrote:
The “new” in these protests was, that the Islamist identity was openly added to the list of persecuted intersectional racial and gender minorities. Islamist, because Islamism is an implementation of Muslim religious identity in politics.

That isn't racist. (It's also pretty hard to believe. Do you have a source in English to back this up? Such as a statement from some American protesters or anything like that?)

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Apr 21 2018 16:30

So you are upset that when you went somewhere you had explicitly been asked not to go, people didn't have any time for your explanation of why ypou should be there? Why did you go to a student thing anyway if you're not a student? Just to tell them how wrong they are? I am shocked and surprised that people react badly to this.

Asking how many palestinians you killed is clearly not right, but it doesn't make you right.

Anti-semitism is a problem, the left seems to have a bit of a fixation with Israel, which is hard to explain. I don't fully understand it but there is probably a mix of media attention anti-semitism and an easy 'bad-guy' narrative. I rremember when I was a kid asking a firend why he hated Israel, he said something like "One side is throwing side and the other side is shooting guns so it's obvious who is the bad guy" or at least that is how I understood it at the time. It is also mildly complicated by defenders of Israel using anti-semitism as a blanket response to any criticism of Israel. Although to be honest, while that hypocrisy is annoying it is also a pretty standard tactic, pretty similar to our poor old white friends like meerov. "Doing anything about racism is actually racist towards white people!" I don't know about meerov, I'll take his claims at face value, but a lot of the most vocal about anti-white racism are people who have never actually dealt with it.

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Apr 21 2018 19:41
Serge Forward wrote:
criticism of him here is very poor

Good, then I've succesfully tailored the strength of my criticisms to match the strength of his arguments.

meerov21 wrote:
Also, don't tell people who disagree with you on the internet to committ suicide Meerov,

This behavior of yours is just hypocrisy. This man Fleur turns me with the word "ass",

As Fleur says, she didn't call you an ass, she said that "anyone who makes jokes about trigger warnings, ie mocking somebody who has PTSD, is an ass". I think thats a fair comment, rather than an insult.

meerov21 wrote:
I also didn't want him to commit suicide, but only told him about this possibility.

Oh, is this thread posted in the "Random suggestions of activities, apropos of nothing, which it is not impossible for people to engage in" forum? Then i would like to inform you of the possibility of going and fucking yourself. Of course, im not saying "go fuck yourself" to you, that would be a rude insult, im just informing you that thats a possible action you might engage in, similar to how you might do some knitting, or go for a long hike, or juggle crockery, or an infinite array of other activities. And now you are helpfully informed of another activity that it is possible for you to engage in! Hurrah. No need to thank me, Meerov.

meerov21 wrote:
1) When a group of people demands other people of a different race, people of a different skin color, "leave the University", it's a classic racist insult. It does not matter what color of skin those who require it, they can even be dark green or purple.

Why were people asked to leave? "To create a safe space"? Thats meaningless. The author is just stringing together terms into a sentence-like agglomeration of words. What are the specifics of the events hes talking about? Was it, as the author implies by his lack of any detail on time limits or actual events or what the nature of these safe spaces were, a situation where white people were forever barred from the student centres and they were exclusively turned over to black students for their private use, forever? Seems unlikely (and if true, would be pretty crap politics). Was it a situation where some people wanted a meeting just for black students (caucus style), so they were given access for a bit and non-black students weren't allowed into the meeting because it wasnt a meeting they were invited to, ie something a hostile journo could expand into "Whites are now barred from the university!!!!!"? Because if it was that, thats just clearly not racism at all. Was it something else? Who knows! The author doesnt expand on it because for him and the target readership, the specifics of the events aren't what matter. "halloween ban, safe spaces, lol the left are silly and hysterical" is all you need to get from the article as far as they're concerned.

meerov21 wrote:
2) An elderly Jew, a migrant, a journalist, is subjected to racist insults, he is told without any reason that he "killed Palestinians". And then someone else can say that he is Alt-right, that I am "alt-right" and that in General it is "hysterics". So who then dares here to talk about the correctness and antiracism?

Obviously if what he says about people accusing him of being directly personally responsible for the killing of Palestinians by virtue of his country of birth (and by extension, by virtue of being Jewish) is true, then clearly thats some idiots talking racist shite and theres no excuse for that.

And I didnt say he was alt right, or that you were. I said that the article was the same sort of shite that the far right talk about (which it is), and that its shite (which it also is). You (and the author of this article, and spiked magazine, et al) might think the far right are correct about the definitely-not-imaginary plague of effette, hysterical students who hate freedom, but thats up for you to decide.

meerov21 wrote:
You always like to insult Jews, don't you?

Who is the "you" here?

meerov21
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Apr 23 2018 11:18

jolasmo: Bakunin wrote:
This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people,

Mikhail Bakunin was a great revolutionary theorist and practitioner of anarchism. He fought for the self-government of revolutionary communes and workers ' associations. At the same time Bakunin had dirty anti-Semitic ideas. We should see this figure as a whole, with all its advantages and disadvantages. Bakunin made and wrote a lot of great, but he also had this dirt. And in the case of racist students, I see a lot of dirt, but I don't see any anarchist potential. Did they fight for the uprising of the Commune against the government or for the Autonomous self-government of labor collectives? No.

Dorfman: At other colleges, all the Whites were asked to leave the student center to grant the people of color a safe space....

jolasmo
That isn't racist.

Tell that to white racists who "don't feel safe" in the presence of African-Americans and ask them to leave the restaurant or University and make some space "for white people only".

Mike Harman
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Apr 23 2018 11:37
jolasmo wrote:
given that this stuff has sadly been rife on the left for over a hundred years:

While Bakunin did say some anti-Semitic things, no-one has yet been able to find the original source for that quote - in fact the thread is literally about trying to find a source and running into a wall. So I don't think it's useful to then repeat it here as an example.