Bifocalcurious, if you were talking about my post in response to Birthday Pony, I was saying the idea of just being able to not use the police and make some anarchist alternative right here right now a bit like "dropping out" and lifestylism, where people don't bother with class struggle and just try to live in a communist/anarchist way (however the hell that is achieved) every day
Dec 25 2011 15:50
Dec 26 2011 07:43
Ah, so not calling the police is now "lifestylism"? Oh dear.
Dec 26 2011 08:46
Juan Conatz wrote:
Ah, so not calling the police is now "lifestylism"? Oh dear.
That's not at all what he's saying. He's saying that thinking we can always have viable alternatives to using the police in capitalist society is unrealistic and similar to the idea that, for example, we can seperate ourselves off from capitalism economically, and that this attitude is the 'drop out' attitude. That seems like a fair comment. What he's not saying, and nor is anyone else, is that there aren't loads of good reasons not to go to the cops about lots of things. Just that anarcho-purity isn't one of them.
Dec 26 2011 09:09
That's obviously pretty false. Not calling the police is not like not working or not paying taxes. You don't work - you starve, you become homeless (unless you have certain ties with people that prevent this). You stop paying taxes - you go to jail. There are not really comparable consequences to not calling the police, although no doubt some folks here could come up with highly specific hypothetical situations.
Gonna have to just agree to disagree here. I personally lean towards this type of thing being a personal choice that has nothing to do with someone's politics, but I find people trying to make political justifications for calling the cops bizarre, highly questionable and seemingly ignoring the role of the police (which outside of the already mentioned is about corralling people up for state punishment).
This might be a reflection of being in different countries though as well. It is my impression that correctional system and police are way more brutal here in the States than in the UK.
Dec 26 2011 11:29
In the UK they're less brutal, generally, but totally fucking useless (or rather, general crimefighting is not in fact their function). Some friends got beat up real bad (broken bones), cops drove past, saw them bleeding, threatened them with arrest if they stayed on the street. So they hid down a backstreet and the assailants came back and finished the job. Then they aggressively tried to interview one of them at hospital while he was semi-conscious getting out the amubulance on a gurney. Oh, and waited 2 weeks to collect CCTV of the incident so it had been taped over by the time the detectives went to seize it.
And that kind of thing doesn't seem exceptional. I have a book somewhere with stats, and the clear-up rate for everything except murder is really low (they throw a lot of resources at murder, and iirc the UK as a whole only has as many as a single US city). Even then, clear-up is closely tied to eyewitnesses. If they have them, they tend to solve it. If they don't, they don't. So generally I can think of three reasons to call the cops: (1) an attack is in progress and you want to scare/run them off, (2) insurance purposes (you won't get a payout without a crime number) and (3) criminal injuries compensation (my friend got a few grand for the above incident).
Just don't expect them to, you know, solve crimes or anything. When I got burgled at knife point they left the knife outside for a couple of days before trying to recover prints!
Dec 26 2011 11:54
Peter wrote:
Is it for realz that in some parts of the world any random civilian can find out the name and address of a car's owner just from the registration plate?That seems pretty weird to me, there's no way the cops or motor registry would tell you that in Australia.
In Sweden you can search a (government) database on the internet to get tax/motd etc info, to get the name and address of the owner you have to send a fax, or worst case make a phone call 
You can also get income and tax info on any individual by phoning the tax office. They just recently disabled the service to get you the passport photo on anyone by making a phone call, no questions asked.
If you've got the name/id-number/other bits of info you can get a list of all previous places of residence, full name, id-number, marital status, address etc. etc.
Dec 26 2011 12:06
Cooked wrote:
Peter wrote:
Is it for realz that in some parts of the world any random civilian can find out the name and address of a car's owner just from the registration plate?That seems pretty weird to me, there's no way the cops or motor registry would tell you that in Australia.
In Sweden you can search a (government) database on the internet to get tax/motd etc info, to get the name and address of the owner you have to send a fax, or worst case make a phone call
You can also get income and tax info on any individual by phoning the tax office. They just recently disabled the service to get you the passport photo on anyone by making a phone call, no questions asked.
If you've got the name/id-number/other bits of info you can get a list of all previous places of residence, full name, id-number, marital status, address etc. etc.
Crazy.
Am I correct in thinking that the fascists who murdered that Swedish anarcho-syndicalist a decade or so ago got his passport photo from the govt beforehand?
Dec 26 2011 12:42
Peter wrote:
Crazy.Am I correct in thinking that the fascists who murdered that Swedish anarcho-syndicalist a decade or so ago got his passport photo from the govt beforehand?
Well, the nazi he outed at his workplace probably wouldn't have had any trouble getting photos by other means. But Info 14 (the outed nazis publishing house) did indeed have a passport photo sent for a couple of weeks before the murder.
Dec 26 2011 20:28
Juan Conatz wrote:
sawa wrote:
what iIcertainly meant that the attitude that you just need to get a group of pals together and sort it out yaself is macho,Nah, I don't agree with that either. That's a basic friendship thing where I come from. In any case, the police are much more of brute force than any group of friends could be. It's just one that's outside of your hands. I don't see how getting friends to confront or find someone is 'macho' but getting strangers to find and confront some one is something separate. Makes no sense.
I don't think wanting to get some friends together and confront someone is inherently macho. But I think condemning anyone who would rather go to the cops in a situation like the OP outlined is macho (not that you've done this, Juan). As people have said, not everyone is big/strong/skilled in martial arts. Nor does everyone have friends willing or able to do such confrontation. Confronting someone yourself is great and probably better from an anarchist standpoint, but it's not an option available to everyone.
Dec 27 2011 12:20
RedEd wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
Ah, so not calling the police is now "lifestylism"? Oh dear.That's not at all what he's saying. He's saying that thinking we can always have viable alternatives to using the police in capitalist society is unrealistic and similar to the idea that, for example, we can seperate ourselves off from capitalism economically, and that this attitude is the 'drop out' attitude. That seems like a fair comment. What he's not saying, and nor is anyone else, is that there aren't loads of good reasons not to go to the cops about lots of things. Just that anarcho-purity isn't one of them.
This
Dec 27 2011 12:21
tastybrain wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
sawa wrote:
what iIcertainly meant that the attitude that you just need to get a group of pals together and sort it out yaself is macho,Nah, I don't agree with that either. That's a basic friendship thing where I come from. In any case, the police are much more of brute force than any group of friends could be. It's just one that's outside of your hands. I don't see how getting friends to confront or find someone is 'macho' but getting strangers to find and confront some one is something separate. Makes no sense.
I don't think wanting to get some friends together and confront someone is inherently macho. But I think condemning anyone who would rather go to the cops in a situation like the OP outlined is macho (not that you've done this, Juan). As people have said, not everyone is big/strong/skilled in martial arts. Nor does everyone have friends willing or able to do such confrontation. Confronting someone yourself is great and probably better from an anarchist standpoint, but it's not an option available to everyone.
Well said
Dec 27 2011 18:44
So at this point, everyone is saying the same thing and no one here is macho?
Dec 27 2011 21:59
whats the difference from grassing on a dealer or grassing on a class struggle activist, your supporting the state and expanding its power into lives even more robustly than if you hadnt goit the pigs involved.
Saying that middle class priviledged types won;t have qualms about grassing, but people from lumpen working poor backgrounds normally do.
Does noone remember the anti grass van that drove round ordsell?
Dec 27 2011 22:09
Yes, but in this case the person being "grassed" is neither a dealer nor a class struggle activist but some absolute fucking prick that purposefully hit someone with his car. I say fuck him.
What about people who report police brutality and try (however futile the attempt) to get the cop prosecuted. Are they just "grassing"?
Solidarity does not extend to anti-social pieces of shit.
Dec 27 2011 22:18
it does, solidarity shouldnt extend to alf, animal rights activists, lifestylists like feminists or chinese liberal, but antisocial scum are the fucking salt of the earth, its like saying youth in ghettos are in your face and have an attitude as offense is the bets defence, so that kid who mugged someone should be left to rot.
I would rather show him solidarity than a middlce class hippy.
Dec 27 2011 22:41
Bifocalcurious wrote:
it does, solidarity shouldnt extend to alf, animal rights activists, lifestylists like feminists or chinese liberal, but antisocial scum are the fucking salt of the earth, its like saying youth in ghettos are in your face and have an attitude as offense is the bets defence, so that kid who mugged someone should be left to rot.I would rather show him solidarity than a middlce class hippy.
Didn't get any of that 
Dec 27 2011 23:48
What do y'all think of this? Based on sol net activism.
Dec 28 2011 00:14
I keep seeing the word "anti-social" used solely as "bad."
It's interesting that when people say they lack the social bonds to police their own neighborhoods that they don't refer to their community as being "anti-social." I'd say it probably is, and that "anti-social" probably has implications beyond just psychopathic criminals. In fact, capitalism is probably anti-social and anything that breaks that down and makes everyday things like production, protection, housing, etc. more social is probably a step in the right direction. A good critique of lifestylists is that they are, actually, anti-social in that they are not engaging with the communities in which they live, instead moving into cities they're not from and alienating themselves from the real world.
Calling the police does not require you to give up your Anarchist Membership Card(TM), but it does demonstrate that the community you live in is in need of some organizing on a very basic level. Obviously, the weight of the world is not on our shoulders to organize every little thing that should be, but we should at least acknowledge that having no alternative is a symptom of the anti-social nature of capitalism. I can't blame a wage slave for the conditions of their slavery, but I can't see people say that in instances of anti-social behavior, resorting to the state is not morally ambiguous or understandable, but instead flat-out right. That's weird to me.
Oh, and Bifocalcurious, alf/elf are too incoherent to really make blanket statements about. Plenty of elves have been or are organizers and unionists from what I understand.
Dec 28 2011 00:19
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
I was saying the idea of just being able to not use the police and make some anarchist alternative right here right now a bit like "dropping out" and lifestylism, where people don't bother with class struggle and just try to live in a communist/anarchist way (however the hell that is achieved) every day
Why do you draw a line between class war and acting now? It looks a lot like the class war is happening now. Isn't organizing against the ruling class the point? If the working class are organized to the point of policing their own neighborhoods aren't they better equipped to fight the ruling class as well? Self-policing also implies policing against the police.
Dec 28 2011 04:48
Khawaga wrote:
What do y'all think of this? Based on sol net activism.
I really liked this action Khawaga and would be happy to discuss the pros and cons of it. Just not in this bomb site of a thread
Dec 28 2011 15:20
Birthday Pony wrote:
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
I was saying the idea of just being able to not use the police and make some anarchist alternative right here right now a bit like "dropping out" and lifestylism, where people don't bother with class struggle and just try to live in a communist/anarchist way (however the hell that is achieved) every dayWhy do you draw a line between class war and acting now? It looks a lot like the class war is happening now. Isn't organizing against the ruling class the point? If the working class are organized to the point of policing their own neighborhoods aren't they better equipped to fight the ruling class as well? Self-policing also implies policing against the police.
You misunderstand. I was saying that lifestylism included not bothering with class struggle etc
Dec 28 2011 15:28
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
Birthday Pony wrote:
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
I was saying the idea of just being able to not use the police and make some anarchist alternative right here right now a bit like "dropping out" and lifestylism, where people don't bother with class struggle and just try to live in a communist/anarchist way (however the hell that is achieved) every dayWhy do you draw a line between class war and acting now? It looks a lot like the class war is happening now. Isn't organizing against the ruling class the point? If the working class are organized to the point of policing their own neighborhoods aren't they better equipped to fight the ruling class as well? Self-policing also implies policing against the police.
You misunderstand. I was saying that lifestylism included not bothering with class struggle etc
why does it?
Dec 28 2011 18:53
Because instead of engaging with others in class struggle, lifestylists tend to favor dropping out and building their own self serving alternative institutions who are only available for them and are not geared toards/capable of serving everyone. Basically, they try to go and fuck off, alienated from society and the working class as a whole, and try to live the dream on their own.
*Ive had a beer or two 
so if this is harsh, sorry.
Dec 28 2011 19:06
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
Because instead of engaging with others in class struggle, lifestylists tend to favor dropping out and building their own self serving alternative institutions who are only available for them and are not geared toards/capable of serving everyone. Basically, they try to go and fuck off, alienated from society and the working class as a whole, and try to live the dream on their own.
ooo the bogeyman!
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Bob_Black__Anarchy_after_Leftism.html#toc2
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Bob_Black__Anarchy_after_Leftism.html#toc5
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
*Ive had a beer or two
why are you posting in serious forums then!?
Dec 28 2011 19:22
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
*Ive had a beer or two
Did you not start a thead condemning this very practice last week?
Dec 28 2011 19:29
typical lifestylist.
Dec 28 2011 20:01
RedEd wrote:
On a side note, the notion that anarchists always ought to be able to 'stand up for themselves' against anyone who wrongs them is not just unrealistic, but it's also sexist, disablist, ageist and so on*. I think we need to drop it completely.
QFT. Quoted.For.Truth. Thank you
Dec 28 2011 21:58
Quote:
Calling the police does not require you to give up your Anarchist Membership Card(TM), but it does demonstrate that the community you live in is in need of some organizing on a very basic level.
See, I think this is completely backward. It will only be once we have a very high level of class organisation that we'll be able to deal with things like severe anti-social--fuck it, criminal--behaviour like assaults and physical violence.
Dec 28 2011 22:14
action_now wrote:
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
Because instead of engaging with others in class struggle, lifestylists tend to favor dropping out and building their own self serving alternative institutions who are only available for them and are not geared toards/capable of serving everyone. Basically, they try to go and fuck off, alienated from society and the working class as a whole, and try to live the dream on their own.ooo the bogeyman!
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Bob_Black__Anarchy_after_Leftism.html#toc2
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Bob_Black__Anarchy_after_Leftism.html#toc5
the croydonian anarchist wrote:
*Ive had a beer or twowhy are you posting in serious forums then!?
1. I don't get what your trying to say by just linking me those articles. To be honest I don't even know who Bob Black is. I have heard him mentioned on here in a negative light before.
2. Lol I was just kidding and joking round. Taking the piss out of myself because of the utter failure of the thread and its moving to libcommunity.
Can comment on articles and discussions
come on man. stopping playing the 'don't force your opinion on me' line. Nobody is 'forcing' anything here. It doesn't make you a cunt to not go to the police to get a reference to help you get an insurance claim for a new bike, it just makes you stupid....