Reverse racism

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meerov21
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Mar 28 2018 17:33

Yes, my friends, the Jews, worked with the black proletarians in NY, and claim that many of them are racist. I'm not saying everyone or most, but many are.

Is there any news for you? Many of the whites I worked with in Israel or Russia were racist or ethno-nationalist, but the same can be said about the colors workers (or haw do you call them) I worked with. Racism and nationalism are typical for a large number of workers of all nationalities. And I'm extremely surprised that you're surprised.

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Khawaga
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Mar 28 2018 17:35
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In any case, organized structures of black racists exist and conduct their structured work.

You seem to consistently confuse "systematic" with "formal organizations". That's completely missing the point about what systemic racism is or, for that matter, what a system is. If you can understand that the economy is a system that compels the exploitation of workers, then you should be able to understand racism as structural/systemic. Otherwise, we may as well reduce class struggle to individual bosses being mean to individual workers. If you do not get this pretty fundamental difference you will forever be mired in liberal politics.

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Chilli Sauce
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Mar 28 2018 17:46
Meerov21 wrote:
However, I know that a huge part of the black proletariat in NY are anti-white racists.

Meerov, I hear there are some positions going at Fox News if you're looking for work.

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Chilli Sauce
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Mar 28 2018 17:58

Meerov, if I'm being generous, I'd say that you're allowing the nonsense of Twitter politics to misconstrue any decent understanding of what organized class struggle anarchist currents actually look like in the US.

If I'm being ungenerous, I'd say that your attempt to somehow equate white and black racist attitudes belies your own underlying racism.

In any case:

Quote:
organized structures of black racists exist and conduct their structured work. And I can't figure out how anyone would think that's irrelevant. When Farahan insults the Jews, it is a reason at least to criticize this anti-Semite and racist.

(a) I can't say it any better than Khawage, who has clearly won this thread.

(b) Anti-semitism, like white supremacy generally, has a systematic function. It's not the same as anti-white bigotry.

(c) My challenge to you was to find just one struggle that that was undermined by anti-white bigotry. Farakhan is a dick and should be challenged. But you haven't actually provided an example of Farakhan and his organization undermining a particular strike or social struggle. Challenge fail.

On the other hand, anti-black racism within the working class has undermined countless struggles through history. To this day, it operates to both undermine attempts at solidarity and provide a "psychological wage" (to quote W.E.B. Dubois) that binds the white working class to the wider capitalist social order.

meerov21
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Mar 28 2018 18:12

Meerov21 wrote:
However, I know that a huge part of the black proletariat in NY are anti-white racists.
Meerov, I hear there are some positions going at Fox News if you're looking for work.

For me, there's no big difference between them and the leftists, if you're talking about a combination of truth and lies.

Fleur
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Mar 28 2018 18:31

I'm assuming that you have spent a significant amount of time living and organizing in NYC because it would be just silly to make such sweeping, bigoted reactionary opinions on an entire population based solely on hearsay from people who were at Occupy, seven years ago.

Obviously I feel that taking the opinions of Occupy alums unchallenged is perfectly reasonable because it didn't disintegrate in part in a shit storm of bitterness and recriminations.

meerov21
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Mar 28 2018 18:56

In any case, organized structures of black racists exist and conduct their structured work.

Khawaga
You seem to consistently confuse "systematic" with "formal organizations". That's completely missing the point about what systemic racism is or, for that matter, what a system is. If you can understand that the economy is a system that compels the exploitation of workers, then you should be able to understand racism as structural/systemic. Otherwise, we may as well reduce class struggle to individual bosses being mean to individual workers. If you do not get this pretty fundamental difference you will forever be mired in liberal politics.

What does all this have to do with my article?

1) I said that black and white racism are the same phenomenon? No, I didn't. So a few people here are just lying, saying I claimed it was the same thing.

2) I have said that both black and white racism are a great danger to the cause of unification of the working class, for the masses of black as well as the masses of white are infected with racism. And I know that from my friends who worked with black and white proletarians in the United States. I think it's obvious, and no left lie will make me believe that black workers are free from racial prejudice; they do have it just like white workers.

3) I used the Oxford dictionary definition, which states that racism is not necessarily systematic.

4) I also said that there are racist organizations among blacks, that black racism can be organized in a structured way. Now you're going to play a game with language, first you change the meaning of the term racism, saying that there can only be called a system, and then you can see that blacks have some racist systems, but you say you mean another system. It is completely unclear why people should use your definitions...

meerov21
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Mar 28 2018 19:08

meerov21 wrote:
However, I know that a huge part of the black proletariat in NY are anti-white racists.

Mike Harman
Do you have anything to back this up?

Yes i do:
Among black Americans, 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

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R Totale
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Mar 28 2018 19:10

Here, Meerov, I've found another very important social issue for you to be concerned about, I look forward to you enlightening us with another lengthy text about this real and serious problem: http://delingpoleworld.com/2011/05/30/lord-fellowes-is-right-posh-people-are-the-last-persecuted-minority/

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Chilli Sauce
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Mar 28 2018 19:20
meerov21 wrote:
Meerov21 wrote:
However, I know that a huge part of the black proletariat in NY are anti-white racists.
Meerov, I hear there are some positions going at Fox News if you're looking for work.

For me, there's no big difference between them and the leftists, if you're talking about a combination of truth and lies.

Way to ignore the substantive post and go for the joke one.

Mike Harman
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Mar 28 2018 19:37

Meerov, I'm going to quote your own words back at you, just from this thread. Some of these are where you're describing accusations of racism (or just privilege) against white people, some are where you accuse black people of racism.

1. "Calling meerov racist is a 'left insult'"

meerov21 wrote:
You forgot to tell me that I'm a racist-fascist-sexist-ageist and other left insults.

2. "If you say I'm privileged, it's racist stupidity."

meerov21 wrote:
If an american anarchist insults me or my friends (poor Slavs, Caucasian or Jewish), say we are "privileged white men", it's racist stupidity directed against large part of the white working class in USA and Europe .

3. "If you call white people privileged, they'll tell us to fuck off and vote for Trump."

meerov21 wrote:
And I don't think by insulting a white worker or a Jew, a factory worker or an unemployed person, calling him a "privileged white male" we'll get anything positive. He'll just fuck up with us and go vote for Trump. That's the main idea of my notes.

4. "Left wing people who don't agree with something insult people as racist etc."

meerov21 wrote:
hen left-wing does not agree with something, he immediately begins to insult the interlocutor, and it is always the same: "fascist-Nazi-racist-sexist-ageist".

5. "The NBPP and Farrakhan are racist, 'this is it'."

meerov21 wrote:
Ya. So you call them "racist". Me too. This is it.

6. "If someone says housing should be redistributed, they're racist."

meerov21 wrote:
And I can't figure out how anyone would think that's irrelevant. When Farahan insults the Jews, it is a reason at least to criticize this anti-Semite and racist. When a representative of the black movement says that white people should give the house to black (as happened recently), this is a reason to conflict with this black racist.

7. "A huge number of black proletarians in NY are anti-white racists."

meerov21 wrote:
However, I know that a huge part of the black proletariat in NY are anti-white racists.

8, "Why would you be surprised if I say a large number of people are racist?"

meerov21 wrote:
racism and nationalism are typical for a large number of workers of all nationalities. And I'm extremely surprised that you're surprised.

#3 and #7 are most illuminating here. You think that white workers will "just fuck up with us and go vote for Trump." if you call them privileged , and therefore no-one should use that terminology. You don't even argue that people are calling white workers racist, but in fact that any usage of privilege theory is in fact racist in itself - against white people.

However you're very happy to call a 'huge part' of the black proletariat in New York anti-white racists - not that they're in a structural position of privilege or whatever you're criticising as left insults, but out and out bigots.

If you're so concerned that calling people racist is going to alienate them into voting for far right electoral candidates, why wouldn't your statement that a huge part of black New Yorkers are racist make them 'just fuck up with us and go vote for Farrakhan'? And yet you're spent the entire thread arguing that people are inconsistent.

Mike Harman
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Mar 28 2018 19:44
meerov21 wrote:

Yes i do:
Among black Americans, 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

Did you google Rasmussen? They've been the subject of several articles accusing them of bias and inaccuracy.

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Hieronymous
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Mar 28 2018 20:04
meerov21 wrote:
people are supposedly calling you a "racist/nazi/fascist", or something similar? If the latter, I'd ask once again, can you show anyone here actually calling you that,

Hieronymous
Meerov21, please stop trying to peddle your reactionary ideas on libcom. You’ve yet to substantiate a thing you’ve said, except with nonsense.

This is a typical example of the dirty left speech I'm talking about.

I didn’t even call you a reactionary, I said some of your disingenuous trolling amounts to proposing — in a bad faith manner — “reactionary ideas.”

What you said about black proletarians in New York is not only an “alternative fact,” it’s another groundless reactionary idea.

Meerov21, what motivates you to post such fake news?

meerov21
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Mar 28 2018 23:09

Among black Americans, 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

Mike Harman
Did you google Rasmussen? They've been the subject of several articles accusing them of bias and inaccuracy.

Any media and sociological service is sometimes accused of bias and inaccuracy. Do you have any evidence that refutes the research they did on black racism? Then bring them.

It was survey. That's pretty much the same as my friends who worked with the black workers of NY told me.

meerov21
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Mar 28 2018 23:36

#3 and #7 are most illuminating here. You think that white workers will "just fuck up with us and go vote for Trump." if you call them privileged , and therefore no-one should use that terminology. You don't even argue that people are calling white workers racist, but in fact that any usage of privilege theory is in fact racist in itself - against white people.

However you're very happy to call a 'huge part' of the black proletariat in New York anti-white racists - not that they're in a structural position of privilege or whatever you're criticising as left insults, but out and out bigots

1. First of all, do not distort the meaning of what I wrote: "Many of the whites I worked with in Israel or Russia were racist or ethno-nationalist, but the same can be said about the colors workers (or haw do you call them) I worked with. Racism and nationalism are typical for a large number of workers of all nationalities". That is, I think racism is widespread among different ethnic or racial groups of the working class. It's just a fact. This is a fact, which is confirmed by the survey, which I gave, and the opinion of my comrades. I do not think this statement is offensive. Insult is a situation where it is said that "only whites can be racist and privileged", and millions of white poor people hear it.

2.The theory of white privileges in many respects hypocritical. I wrote about it in the article:

"The notion of "white privilege" is part of a racist discourse invented by left liberals. In the US, Western Europe, and Eastern Europe, there are tens of millions of white poor people whose situation is much worse than that of many rich or midle Blacks or Asians. I do not know the average figures, maybe if you compare the average income in the United States between white and black, then white will be higher. But this figure says little, because it is "the average temperature of patients in the hospital." In US there are millions of poor white workers and unemployed people living in a Rusty belt and in many other places. They have no power, they have no wealth. For me, these people are friends in misfortune, like poor Blacks, Koreans, Jews or Indians.

...We did not choose where we were born, and we (most people on the planet) do not control business and government. Therefore, we take no responsibility for the policy of the elite. So we're not responsible for the wage hierarchy.

It would be strange if we accused a black poor man or an African labor migrant who came to live in the US of "having privileges". Meanwhile, his benefits are huge: in comparison with the inhabitants of Africa, his salary in ten times more. But even within Africa itself the residents of a big capital city live better than the inhabitants of the poor provinces. Capitalism is hierarchical. But as long as it exists, it's stupid to accuse one employee of getting paid more than the other."

I may add, I have heard many times anarchists and leftists offend people, claiming that since a person is a white (or white man) he enjoys privileges and he is responsible for oppressing minorities. I don't make statements that all anarchists say it, but many say it.

meerov21
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Mar 28 2018 23:42

For example, when you say that crime is common among all Nations, it is not a racist statement. But if you say "only black people are criminals" - this is racism directed against black people.
I say there are racists among all Nations and races, this is not a racist statement. If I say only whites can be racist, it is racism directed against whites.

radicalgraffiti
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Mar 29 2018 00:18

dp

radicalgraffiti
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Mar 29 2018 00:17
meerov21 wrote:
Among black Americans, 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

Mike Harman
Did you google Rasmussen? They've been the subject of several articles accusing them of bias and inaccuracy.

Any media and sociological service is sometimes accused of bias and inaccuracy. Do you have any evidence that refutes the research they did on black racism? Then bring them.

It was survey. That's pretty much the same as my friends who worked with the black workers of NY told me.

black people can have internalized racism leading them to judged black people more harshly than white people eg https://www.theroot.com/the-doll-test-for-racial-self-hate-did-it-ever-make-se-1790875716
so "black people say most black people are racist against white people" (in one survey) doesn't necessrly make it true, even if the survey accurately reflects their views

radicalgraffiti
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Mar 29 2018 00:26
meerov21 wrote:
2.The theory of white privileges in many respects hypocritical. I wrote about it in the article:

"The notion of "white privilege" is part of a racist discourse invented by left liberals. In the US, Western Europe, and Eastern Europe, there are tens of millions of white poor people whose situation is much worse than that of many rich or midle Blacks or Asians. I do not know the average figures, maybe if you compare the average income in the United States between white and black, then white will be higher. But this figure says little, because it is "the average temperature of patients in the hospital." In US there are millions of poor white workers and unemployed people living in a Rusty belt and in many other places. They have no power, they have no wealth. For me, these people are friends in misfortune, like poor Blacks, Koreans, Jews or Indians.

white privilege means that everything else being equal a white person has an advantage compared to eg a black person, a poor white person has an advantage compared to an equally poor black person, eg they will be more likely to get a job, they will find it easyer to get a better playing job, if they run into trouble with the police they will be treated less harshly etc eg

Quote:
African-Americans college students are about as likely to get hired as whites who have dropped out of high school.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/06/27/white-high-school-drop-outs-are-as-likely-to-land-jobs-as-black-college-students/#60c594ba7b8f

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Hieronymous
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Mar 29 2018 05:52

I'm sorry for going for the trollbait and engaging in this discussion.

Meerov21, if you continue to swim backwards against history and actively defy truth, go ahead with pushing your reactionary ideology. Perhaps you can build it into a movement to defend whites against anti-white racism; you could call it "WHITE LIVES MATTER."

It definitely would be popular with cops.

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Mar 29 2018 06:26

Meerov, you really just don't get it, do you?

Meerov wrote:
I have heard many times anarchists and leftists offend people, claiming that since a person is a white (or white man) he enjoys privileges and he is responsible for oppressing minorities.
Rommon wrote:
So what do you suggest .. other than not going around calling poor whites "white privileged males" when you're talking to them about politics and organizing ... which I don't think People really do.
Chilli wrote:
if you actually listen, you'll see that most class struggle anarchists who employ the term "privilege" aren't using it as an insult - that's some weird strawman you've created in your head. Instead, they use the term as a tool to analyze, understand and overcome divisions within the class.

As for this:

Quote:
Insult is a situation where it is said that "only whites can be racist and privileged"

What's been explained to you again and again is that people are drawing a distinction between

(a) systematic racialized oppression built into the overarching political, social, and economic structures of society ("the system") and

(b) individual or fringe group bigotry directed against whites

And, God knows, I don't expect you to get this, but as has been suggested, black people internalizing racist attitudes against black people is far more of an issue than this supposed massive and widespread anti-white sentiment that you seem to be magically aware of .

Mike Harman
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Mar 29 2018 07:10

Here's an example of someone crying 'anti-white racism' and 'privilege' to try to push through attacks on workers. They manufactured a story about nurses having to apologise for being white and recite some script about privilege, in order to try to push through some kind of outsourcing or contract change. So rather than anti-white racism dividing a workforce in fact someone invented an entire situation to give the appearance of it.

https://indigenousx.com.au/the-truth-behind-the-nursing-code-of-conduct-lie/

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Serge Forward
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Mar 29 2018 08:16
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(b) individual or fringe group bigotry directed against whites

Which is still racism, even though you might be squeamish about using the 'R' word, depending on who's being racist. Yes, it's clearly different to the systemic racism of 'white supremacism' as it doesn't have the whole social, economic, political and historic clout behind it, but it's still unpleasant and not something to apologise for, soften, semi-justify or 'try to understand' like a big daft liberal and say it's not really racist. That plays straight into the hands of the divide-and-rule boss class and their white supremacist stooges. What's important is how to build class unity through common interests in the day to day struggles.

meerov21
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Mar 29 2018 10:09

white privilege means that everything else being equal a white person has an advantage compared to eg a black person, a poor white person has an advantage compared to an equally poor black person, eg they will be more likely to get a job, they will find it easyer to get a better playing job, if they run into trouble with the police they will be treated less harshly etc eg

I'm not sure that's always the case if a white person lives in a city where there are few or almost no blacks, and with unemployment as high as 50%, he lives in great poverty, and I don't understand what he has to do with problems between whites and blacks elsewhere.

But let's say millions of white poor people, poor workers, and unemployed people have little advantage over the black poor in USA. But even your black poor people live better than most of the workers and the unemployed in Africa or Eastern Europe, because America fucked up the world. Even within Africa and Eastern Europe, there are poor and rich regions.

Capitalism is a global system with an almost infinite number of levels of material hierarchy among workers. And the constant reference to white privilege in this regard looks like racism when it is directed at the white poor who have no control over their conditions of existence.

And there is some lie. Perhaps some anarchists, such as class anarchists or part of them use the conversation about "white privileges" very delicately. Well, as I have already written many times I do not claim that all anarchists use this as an insult, but I have seen many American anarchists and leftists use this not delicately, but as a direct insult to white men, whom they accused of being responsible for racial oppression.

meerov21
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Mar 29 2018 10:07

Chilli Sauce
And, God knows, I don't expect you to get this, but as has been suggested, black people internalizing racist attitudes against black people is far more of an issue than this supposed massive and widespread anti-white sentiment that you seem to be magically aware of .

I do not expect any reaction from someone like you because I see you have nothing. I use no magic but the sociological poll according to which a huge part of black said that there are mass of racists among the black. Are you telling me that this is just a result of the internalization of white propaganda? Are you trying to tell me that black people don't have their own minds and can't see what's going on in their own community? Maybe you are the cool white, which is better than black knows what's going on in the black community?

Mike Harman
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Mar 29 2018 10:35
Serge Forward wrote:
it's still unpleasant and not something to apologise for, soften, semi-justify or 'try to understand' like a big daft liberal and say it's not really racist

The only time I've seen this done with Farrakhan by supposedly left people is the Workers World Party in the US. There's some discussion of it here, found it when looking for something else. https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-7/wa-supplement/2-1.html#article90

There might be examples, can't remember the last time I had a discussion about Farrakhan at all to be honest.

As I mentioned above, the people who had some of the most vicious clashes with reactionary black nationalists like Ron Karenga, the NBPP, have been communists like the Black Panthers - however here has been a huge effort to label the Black Panthers themselves as nationalists/separatists. So while avoiding 'semi-justifying things like liberals', we should equally avoid giving credence to the extremely liberal idea that even talking about white supremacy (or 'privilege', or 'whiteness') is reverse racism, as happened with the attacks on Munroe Bergdorf recently.

Mike Harman
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Mar 29 2018 10:58
meerov21 wrote:
I'm not sure that's always the case if a white person lives in a city where there are few or almost no blacks, and with unemployment as high as 50%, he lives in great poverty, and I don't understand what he has to do with problems between whites and blacks elsewhere.

That would be an argument that 'white privilege' is dependent on context, but not an argument that it is 'anti-white racism'.

But somewhere like Harlan County which probably fits your description more than most places in the US, still has an estimated 600 black people out of 30,000 https://suburbanstats.org/race/kentucky/harlan-county/how-many-black-or-african-american-people-live-in-harlan-county-kentucky - that's about 2%.

Even if you can find a specific almost exclusively white community with 50% unemployment that's policed as heavily as a working class black community it doesn't change the general trend, or that someone from that community who moves to a different city might then experience policing differently to the black population.

meerov21 wrote:
But let's say millions of white poor people, poor workers, and unemployed people have little advantage over the black poor in USA. But even your black poor people live better than most of the workers and the unemployed in Africa or Eastern Europe, because America fucked up the world. Even within Africa and Eastern Europe, there are poor and rich regions.

This is one aspect of class composition internationally, often called 'uneven development', it doesn't do anyone any good to deny it exists. There are some very counter-productive ideas out there like the 'aristocracy of labour', third worldism, etc. which obscure class within countries or communities, but they are not anti-white racism.

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boozemonarchy
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Mar 29 2018 11:14
meerov21 wrote:
For example, when you say that crime is common among all Nations, it is not a racist statement. But if you say "only black people are criminals" - this is racism directed against black people.
I say there are racists among all Nations and races, this is not a racist statement. If I say only whites can be racist, it is racism directed against whites.

Fucking hell meerov - would actually be a great thing if racism stopped and ended at saying mean things about groups of people but it doesn't, and that is what you're ignoring consistently. (?) Your premise (racism is being mean) is actually almost verbatim the typical right-wing analysis of racism. In the US this analysis was an important development because it effectively gets out in front of civil rights struggles under the cloth of equal culpability because a black person said a mean thing once.

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R Totale
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Mar 29 2018 11:16
meerov21 wrote:
And there is some lie. Perhaps some anarchists, such as class anarchists or part of them use the conversation about "white privileges" very delicately. Well, as I have already written many times I do not claim that all anarchists use this as an insult, but I have seen many American anarchists and leftists use this not delicately, but as a direct insult to white men, whom they accused of being responsible for racial oppression.

If you've got beef with something some other people have said or written somewhere else, then maybe take it up with them directly, and then when you're posting here you could concetrate on replying to what other posters are actually saying? I too get annoyed when I think about some stupid things liberals have said elsewhere at various points, but I don't write every post here as if I'm responding to someone else in a different conversation.

Mike Harman
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Mar 29 2018 13:09

For anyone interested, there's a good overview of the Nation of Islam here: https://libcom.org/library/critique-of-nation-of-islam-melancholic-troglodytes