Class struggle in the current economic crisis

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I’m also with [the] question:

“how can revolutionary communists respond to what is, surely, a pretty major opportunity to re-ignite a widescale criticism of capitalism.” Excellent opening to a discussion.

from the economic crisis thread

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admin - this post is in response to one by "probably your class enemy" commenting that people who want to fight capitalism should go to China. This post was accidentally deleted.

I disagree. The centre of global capitalism remains in the west, as the current crisis has shown, even if there are extensive real capital investments in developing countries. The best thing is to struggle for our interests here.

There will be increasing struggle across the board, no doubt about that. As has been pointed out on the other thread, this is due to the structural nature of the working class – those who own no capital and must make demands of it will do this in response to attacks on their conditions. We've seen the beginnings of this already, with the recent strike wave in the UK and with further disputes brewing. But nothing in them, at this stage, points beyond bourgeois politicking, especially given the unions' integration into the ruling party and their recent negotiations with the Tories. There are good militants in the rank and file, but the entire union structure and the legal snares surrounding it are weighing on their backs. This isn’t going to go away. Our question should be how to intervene in these inevitable struggles, creating avenues for a) expanding our political minority and b) making our arguments available. We must do – bourgeois politicians and leftists certainly will.

Lurch wrote:
Today, in the midst of an atmosphere (and reality) of war, of economic crisis, of climate catastrophe, of the relative exhaustion of 'democratic' v 'totalitarian' ideologies; of 'private or 'state capital' solutions; the stranglehold of bourgeois ideology of which Django speaks seems to me to be overstated.

I agree with you to some extent on this. But on the other hand most people have little to no consciousness of an alternative way of running the world. Mention “socialism”, "communism" or something similar and most will think of movements which are very much of a different time. Most people are depoliticised across the board. Though bourgeois ideology does have an enemy to rally against currently in Islamism, it doesn’t require one if people can’t imagine alternatives, or believe the alternatives to be failed experiments consigned to the dustbin of history - and blood soaked authoritarian ones at that. I don’t have some PoMo position that ideology is a trap which can never be overcome or escaped, I think the material position of the working class necessarily pushes against and beyond it it. But the bourgeoisie are in a much better position to give meaning to this phenomenon and obscure it than political minorities such as our own which remain tiny.

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It's true that at an immediate level, the mass of the working class appears depoliticised. However, the crisis will drive many workers into struggle and push minorities into a further questioning of the real future this system has to offer. The fact that "the left" is in crisis is actually a good thing - a worker who's never heard of "international socialism" is probably in a better position (or at least no worse off) than a worker who thinks it means invading Poland to put down strikers!

Of course, struggle does not automatically translate into the development of class consciousness or revolution. But it is the essential precondition of those developments and its up to revolutionaries to push the process forward as far as possible. And consciousness can actually develop extremely rapid in certain circumstances. In the space of four years from 1914-1918 workers went from cheering in the streets at the prospect of slaughtering each other under their respective national flags to turning their guns on their own governments, hoisting red flags and declaring the world revolution.

Of course, I doubt that things will happen quite as quickly this time - instead we'll see a long series of struggles and many defeats. Nonetheless, the potential is for a far deeper development of consciousness in the working class which will be less easily deflected by set backs and defeats (the consciousness of the revolutionary wave ebbed rapidly once the revolution was stymied in Germany).

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Django wrote:
I disagree. The centre of global capitalism remains in the west, as the current crisis has shown, even if there are extensive real capital investments in developing countries. The best thing is to struggle for our interests here.

I think there is a definite case to be made for viewing the present crisis as part of a moving of the centre, from the west to east. As the west becomes less productive and out-competed by the east, so this makes western economic growth increasingly empty - hence inflation, bubbles, etc. - but the process of shifting also seriously destabilizes the process of capitalist reproduction - as western demand , which is what has largely been fuelling eastern growth, slips, so the system as a whole suffers from a lack of demand, which prompts recession, crisis, etc.

none of this means that class struggle needs to be only located in the east, of course - we need struggle in both east and west.

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Demogorgon303 wrote:
It's true that at an immediate level, the mass of the working class appears depoliticised. However, the crisis will drive many workers into struggle and push minorities into a further questioning of the real future this system has to offer.

indeed this is already happening - the kind of discussions about inflation eroding living standards we've had on here have been pretty common with friends and workmates over the last 6 months. of course they beg the question what we do about it, but open crisis certainly provides a talking point from which our ideas can be put forward, e.g. after one discussion about inflation eating away our wages, an 'depoliticised' co-worker used our credit search facilities to look at our bosses companies net worth - which had been steadily growing while they pleaded poverty and 'credit crunch' when people had asked for pay rises.

no1
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I think we need to offer an accessible analysis of what's happening which also points towards effective forms of struggle, and connects them to struggles elsewhere (e.g. South America). It's important to show how the problems are a systemic feature of capitalism - right now most people will think that they are just the result of cock-ups by a few greedy people at the top of the financial world. A lot of people will also have illusions that the state will protect them, but this is an opportunity to show that the state is the tool of the rich.

The aim shouldn't be to convert individuals to a revolutionary perspective but to point towards concrete forms of struggle. For this we need to work out how acute things will be. What will happen if the global financial system goes into melt-down? Will there be a long period of mass-unemployment like during the Great Depression? Will it affect more privileged middle class strata? Will it be a situation like in Argentina 2001, with spontaneous taking over of factories, with alternative forms of exchange like bartering, local currencies etc. springing up? I also think we should not just look towards industrial struggle but encourage support networks that can help people in concrete ways when they lose their job or their house is repossessed.

I'm hoping that the fall-out from the current crisis will destroy the mind-numbing, soul-crushing culture of consumer capitalism, which I think is the main obstacle inhibiting politicisation and wide-spread struggle.

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Uh, what are" revolutionary communists" and how does this relate to anarchism?

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no1 wrote:
think we need to offer an accessible analysis of what's happening which also points towards effective forms of struggle, and connects them to struggles elsewhere

agreed... Tea Break was a (limited) attempt at this. distrubution poses certain problems though, although the year before handing out Dispatch to striking posties at was well-received.

no1 wrote:
I also think we should not just look towards industrial struggle but encourage support networks that can help people in concrete ways when they lose their job or their house is repossessed.

also a good point, as the financial crisis ripples out into the 'real economy' we're likely to see a rise in home repossessions and unemployment, increasing the potential for and importance of non-workplace struggles. Some of the anti-poll tax resistance (particularly anti-eviction mobilisations) might be an interesting precedent, but it would require repossessions/evictions on a massive scale to make it clear that it's an attack on us as a class rather than a private problem of highly geared individuals.

no1 wrote:
I'm hoping that the fall-out from the current crisis will destroy the mind-numbing, soul-crushing culture of consumer capitalism, which I think is the main obstacle inhibiting politicisation and wide-spread struggle.

but i disagree with this. i mean, at the very least it's chicken-and-egg. i mean i spend a large part of my non-working life involved in "mind-numbing" consumer activities (drink/drugs/clubs/clothes...), and i don't think they make me less likely to struggle over material conditions etc. I don't really see what's wrong with them per se either, but that's probably another discussion.

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syndicalist wrote:
Uh, what are" revolutionary communists" and how does this relate to anarchism?

Why does it have to relate to anarchism? Perhaps its time the a-word left the stage.

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So far, most of us posting on this thread seem to agree, to a greater or lesser extent, that the open appearance of the economic crisis, in today’s conditions, is some kind of stimulus to both reflection and action within the working class.

Most seem to agree that it will provoke (and has already provoked) further, initially defensive struggles of the class on a global scale. No one is saying – at least I’m not – that the outcome of these struggles is guaranteed to produce revolutionary consciousness and action.

The question for me is: what considerations allow us to think that such a revolutionary situation is a possibility (as opposed to a necessity which may not be realised); to draw a certain strength from the fact that we’re not just pissing in the wind?

Django points out an apparent absence of perspective within the proletariat and I agree this is not to be under-estimated. Part of the problem here is that the task facing workers seems so enormous – so outlandish – that the very thought of a revolutionary solution is constantly suppressed (as well as being rubbished by bourgeois ideology). Mankind doesn’t throw away a tool until it’s been proven absolutely useless; the workers seem to throw their enemy to the ground, only to shrink away from a final confrontation, as Marx put it in different words.

Which is why the evolution of the crisis is so important. The open admission that the ‘masters of the universe’ in fact control very little; that they can’t even manage their own affairs; that their own economy is ultimately beyond their control – all these things increasingly point towards the necessity for a radical solution even if at present few people want to admit it. That and the increased unemployment, inflation, greater exploitation, etc, which the open crisis engenders, globally and simultaneously.

Lenin, Libcom’s favourite pin-up, said that a revolutionary situation boiled down to two things: when the ruling class can no longer go on governing as before, and when the exploited refused to be governed as before. I agree we’re quite some way from the latter. With the panic over the economy in general and the financial sector in particular, we’re getting important glimpses of the former.

Proletarian consciousness develops, on the one hand by its disengagement from the grip of the dominant ideology and, on the other, ‘positively’ through the affirmation of the class’s autonomy, unity, self-organisation and solidarity – through the struggle and reflection on it.

The evolution of reality – of the crisis - is favouring the ‘disengagement’ process. The question that prompted this as a separate strand really concerned the aspect of workers’ struggles. Like the crisis itself, they too have a history and just as the development of class consciousness isn’t a linear, chronological process, neither is the relationship between crisis and class struggle.

For example, the crisis was at a far lower level in the early 60s, yet its reappearance (accompanied by tendencies towards speed-ups and growing unemployment) sparked massive struggles across the world (France 68, Italy 69, South America, Britain, Poland, etc etc). Today, the crisis is far deeper. It’s been unfolding, in reality, for almost 40 years. Shouldn’t we expect the level of class struggle across the world to match it, if not blow for blow, then at least in a demonstrably progressive manner?

I don’t think it works quite like that. The conditions of struggle are far more difficult today: it’s obvious that there’s far more at stake. The ruling class is much better prepared, with its laws, lies, media, unions, repression, than it was in the late 60s and 70s. And workers have been obliged to reflect on the fact that all their struggles so far, all the temporary ‘gains’ they’ve made, haven’t halted the deterioration of their existence.

Which makes those struggles that do erupt – in recent times in Bangladesh, in Egypt, in Argentina, in Germany, Spain or France, for example – all the more important and significant. In Britain, over the summer, there was a great deal of anger at pay and job cuts while price rises, service cuts and inflation ate away at living standards: it’s just that this discontent wasn’t able to manifest itself in an effective, massive ‘demonstrable’ way. Which is not to say it didn’t exist: it did and it still does.

I’m not saying that the working class can remain at the present level forever: there isn’t all the time in the world. But neither do I believe that it has turned away from trying to defend itself, that the prospect of major clashes between the classes - and within that, a massive deepening and extension of consciousness - has disappeared. I see no convincing evidence that the working class, globally and historically speaking, has been dragooned behind major bourgeois mystifications, even if it has yet to overtly put forward its own, revolutionary perspective. (Though I believe it - the revolutionary perspective - was quite widely mentioned in 68 and its aftermath, and we're still talking about it, aren't we, and we're part of the movement, even if a minority).

There’s little point in discussing what to say to fellow workers if you don't believe that this combativity and potential are still intact: you can’t be convincing if you yourself aren’t convinced!

Even blind men can recognise objects when they bump into them. This current moment has blown away all those (some of them on these forums) who took superficial appearances for underlying reality and declared capitalism didn’t suffer from intrinsic, insoluble crises; that state capitalism was a nonsense, that all we were witnessing was a transition from US economic hegemony to Chinese ascendency. Let’s not make the same mistake vis-a-vis the class struggle.

PS: I agree with Joseph K’s last post – hope that’s not too much of an embarrassment to him
PPS: Re Syndicalist: isn’t this place called Libcom, Libertarian Communist?

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Anon wrote:
10 weeks ago on my redundancy I took: 1. All my personal bits & pieces. 2. As much of the stationary cupboard as I could pour into my large cardboard box. 3. Several DVD's of data & client info. 4. As many of the data wall-charts (£1200 each) as I could fold up and put in my cardboard box. 5. My company laptop that I just happened to have left at home the previous week. 5. Anything else that wasn't bolted down in my office. 6. Oh, and a smug smile on my face.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7618966.stm

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no1 wrote:
I think we need to offer an accessible analysis of what's happening which also points towards effective forms of struggle, and connects them to struggles elsewhere (e.g. South America). [ ... ] Will it be a situation like in Argentina 2001, with spontaneous taking over of factories, with alternative forms of exchange like bartering, local currencies etc. springing up?

Maybe it's worth a closer look at Argentina for an example of what can happen in a developed country when the economy collapses - though I doubt there'd be a crisis here on anything like that scale. Anyway here's a Loren Goldner article on Argentina from a couple of years ago - http://home.earthlink.net/~lrgoldner/clausewitz.html

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Lurch wrote:
that state capitalism was a nonsense, that all we were witnessing was a transition from US economic hegemony to Chinese ascendency.

for the record, my criticism of the left communist 'state capitalist' analysis is that market and state have always been inseperable sides of the same coin, even if the specific forms of this relationship are historically contingent and develop according to the bourgeoisie learning from their mistakes, the state of class struggle etc (i'd therefore reserve the term 'state capitalism' for leftist nationalised models as opposed to capitalism today in general). i also wouldn't say the current crisis neccessarily undermines the possibility we're moving from a US- to Sino-centric regime of accumulation - although it's not clear how national advantages could play out in a global crisis.

Lurch wrote:
PS: I agree with Joseph K’s last post – hope that’s not too much of an embarrassment to him

no embarassment at all, indeed one of my main criticisms of decadence etc is that such an all-explaining theoretical framework seems superfluous for arriving at sensible conclusions - although this should be kept to the threads on this topic methinks.

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Joseph K. wrote:
Tea Break was a (limited) attempt at this. distrubution poses certain problems though, although the year before handing out Dispatch to striking posties at was well-received.

Why don't you try linking up with the national organisations when you do these? As they're national and already have established freesheets I'm sure they could distribute a lot if they were involved.

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Lurch: PPS: Re Syndicalist: isn’t this place called Libcom, Libertarian Communist?

True enough, but " revolutionary communists" does not imply that to me. Perhaps it's a new phenom. I began to cut my anarchist teeth in the 1970s, " revolutionary communism" or " revolutionary communists" would imply "anti-revisionist" marxist-leninists and so forth.

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Wheeler: Perhaps its time the a-word left the stage.

If one doesn't think anarchism is proper for them, I supose that's fair enough. I happen to think anarchism is just fine (speciifically anarcho-syndicalism and anarchist-communism).

Ok, interesting conversation nevertheless. It will be curious to how how things shape up here in the US as the mortage, banking and insurance meltdown contiues.

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nastyned wrote:
Why don't you try linking up with the national organisations when you do these? As they're national and already have established freesheets I'm sure they could distribute a lot if they were involved.

iirc we emailed all the groups of both national feds and the IWW, as well as other class-oriented anarchist groups. to my knowledge only the solfed local of which i'm a member distributed any - but this could be down to a lack of organization on our part, it was all a bit rushed. it certainly seems like the kind of project that would benefit and benefit from co-operation with existing national networks of libertarian communists. perhaps there's also the problem all our inboxes are full of appeals from lists to do this or that, whereas direct communication between interested comrades could have got things moving better, there's no substitute for real-world contacts. maybe the lesson is we should get on the phone next time and try and find out who's interested in helping, and they can then mobilise their respective groups. certainly distro (compared to content or design) has been the biggest weakness of Tea Break/Dispatch so far.

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Joseph K. wrote:
Tea Break was a (limited) attempt at this. distrubution poses certain problems though, although the year before handing out Dispatch to striking posties at was well-received.

A Catalan group has produced something a bit similar, specifically around the crisis. Here's the on-line version in English - http://polaris.moviments.net:8000/crisi - 200,000 copies of the Catalan version have been distributed in Barcelona.
There's a thread on alasbarricadas (in Spanish) discussing it - http://www.alasbarricadas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=37485

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JH wrote:
200,000 copies

i love barcelona sad

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Joseph K wrote:
maybe the lesson is we should get on the phone next time and try and find out who's interested in helping, and they can then mobilise their respective groups.

Count me in.

Whilst being worried about the effects the crisis will have on me in the immediate future (I am unemployed already), I do hope the current crisis and the opportunities it provides will give the movement a kick up the arse. We certainly need to be strategising a response to events, and doing this across groups. I'm absolutely no fan of Lenin's, but I think that Lurch is spot on with the recognition of the twofold nature of revolutionary potential. The task of politicised workers is to provide the vision of the alternative, the alternative which is the only solution to crisis full stop. My earlier post could have been read as seeing the crisis as being about recruitment potential - my hope that political minorities expand is simple pragmatism, not substitutionalism: we have very limited resources and ability to intervene as it is compared with the larger leftist groups, let alone bourgeois politics proper. This is only the means to sucessfully influence the class towards the second critieria.

We definitely should be looking at developing effective modes of struggle (Tea Break for instance pushing for cross-union solidarity) as a means of developing class consciousness and combativity. But this shouldn't be without a clear political perspective and goals.

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JH wrote:

Quote:
Maybe it's worth a closer look at Argentina for an example of what can happen in a developed country when the economy collapses - though I doubt there'd be a crisis here on anything like that scale.

I agree that Argentina 2001 holds important lessons. IMO they illustrate – in a negative fashion - the central role of the proletariat developing its consciousness and its activity to lead the rest of society out of the impasse into which decaying capitalism is leading it.

Without speculating whether the crisis “here” (presumably Europe or the US) will reach proportions seen in Argentina (Germany 1923?; US 29-35?) what is certain is that the future will see massive revolts against penury everywhere. They’re already happening. The struggle of the exploited to survive will take on, out of necessity, all kinds of radical forms, including factory occupations, the requisitioning of food, ‘citizens militias’, etc.

The question posed by events in Argentina 2001 is whether the proletariat is capable of putting itself at the head of such a movement, of developing its struggle not just against the effects of the crisis but at the root of the crisis – the capitalist mode of production, capitalist social relations – or whether it will be drowned in a popular revolt which aims at coping with what is, not replacing it with a different form of society, something which can never be accomplished on the level of just one country, or even a whole continent.

I found the following a useful critique:
http://en.internationalism.org/ir/109_argentina.html

no1
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Joseph K. wrote:
as the financial crisis ripples out into the 'real economy' we're likely to see a rise in home repossessions and unemployment, increasing the potential for and importance of non-workplace struggles. Some of the anti-poll tax resistance (particularly anti-eviction mobilisations) might be an interesting precedent, but it would require repossessions/evictions on a massive scale to make it clear that it's an attack on us as a class rather than a private problem of highly geared individuals.

I haven't heard much about anti-eviction mobilisations in the UK, is there anything about it on the libcom website?

Joseph K. wrote:
no1 wrote:
I'm hoping that the fall-out from the current crisis will destroy the mind-numbing, soul-crushing culture of consumer capitalism, which I think is the main obstacle inhibiting politicisation and wide-spread struggle.

but i disagree with this. i mean, at the very least it's chicken-and-egg. i mean i spend a large part of my non-working life involved in "mind-numbing" consumer activities (drink/drugs/clubs/clothes...), and i don't think they make me less likely to struggle over material conditions etc. I don't really see what's wrong with them per se either, but that's probably another discussion.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with consumption but with the culture that has been carefully crafted as a tool of class struggle (have you seen Adam Curtis' "Century of the self"?). Consumerism is the bribe we're offered for being tame workers. It is mind-numbing because it creates a view of human nature in which consumer capitalism can make people happy while those human needs that it can't fulfill are irrelevant. It is soul-crushing because it devalues and inhibits all human relationships that don't fit with the needs of capitalism thereby atomising society. Its omnipresence and ahistoricity make it almost impossible for people to articulate what is lacking in their lives, and to imagine and struggle for a better society. I guess what I'm hoping for is that the meaning of the word materialism in mainstream culture could be replaced with something closer to the marxist meaning.

Lurch wrote:
Lenin, Libcom’s favourite pin-up, said that a revolutionary situation boiled down to two things: when the ruling class can no longer go on governing as before, and when the exploited refused to be governed as before. I agree we’re quite some way from the latter. With the panic over the economy in general and the financial sector in particular, we’re getting important glimpses of the former.

Proletarian consciousness develops, on the one hand by its disengagement from the grip of the dominant ideology and, on the other, ‘positively’ through the affirmation of the class’s autonomy, unity, self-organisation and solidarity – through the struggle and reflection on it.

The evolution of reality – of the crisis - is favouring the ‘disengagement’ process. The question that prompted this as a separate strand really concerned the aspect of workers’ struggles. Like the crisis itself, they too have a history and just as the development of class consciousness isn’t a linear, chronological process, neither is the relationship between crisis and class struggle.

I like the distinction you make between a disengagement process that happens passively as a result to the unfolding crisis, outside of our control, and a positive affirmation of autonomy and self-organisation. It is the latter which we can affect. However one has to communicate with people at the level of consciousness they are at - hitting them on the head with pamphlets about Marx and revolution is a non-starter. Instead the task is to offer historical examples of successful struggles and to develop imaginative and concrete responses to the situation people find themselves in. The first step has to be demonstrating the possibility of successful struggle, something that is currently almost unthinkable for most.

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no1 wrote:
I haven't heard much about anti-eviction mobilisations in the UK, is there anything about it on the libcom website?

not that i'm aware of - i read about it in Danny Burns' 'Poll Tax Rebellion' - not sure how widespread it was but there were apparently phone trees that mobilised people to evictions to confront bailiffs with baseball bats etc, with the local kids acting as spotters/slashing the tires of bailiffs vehicles etc.

no1 wrote:
It is mind-numbing because it creates a view of human nature in which consumer capitalism can make people happy while those human needs that it can't fulfill are irrelevant. It is soul-crushing because it devalues and inhibits all human relationships that don't fit with the needs of capitalism thereby atomising society. Its omnipresence and ahistoricity make it almost impossible for people to articulate what is lacking in their lives, and to imagine and struggle for a better society.

ok, i see where you're coming from. i'm not sure people are convinced it makes them happy though, mostly just distracted. 'i was happy in the haze of a drunken hour...' wink

no1 wrote:
(have you seen Adam Curtis' "Century of the self"?)

no, actually. i missed his other one too.

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However one has to communicate with people at the level of consciousness they are at - hitting them on the head with pamphlets about Marx and revolution is a non-starter. Instead the task is to offer historical examples of successful struggles and to develop imaginative and concrete responses to the situation people find themselves in. The first step has to be demonstrating the possibility of successful struggle, something that is currently almost unthinkable for most.

yes trying to show the possibilité of successful struggle is a good start, the only possible start maybe, (but for a large aprt people only learn that by their experience, by taking part or acknowledging such struggle), but then it is also necessary to communicate a deeper understanding of communist perspectives, but that is possible only after some succes on showing the possibility of successful struggles, and (at least for most people) when the working class level of confidence in its capacity to intervene successfully is rising.

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I'm not trying to be antagonistic but what do you mean by 'historical examples of successful struggles'? I can't really think of anything that would contribute towards the present culture in terms of offering hope. I'm sure you don't mean this, but talking about the Paris Commune or the Anarchists in Spain won't offer anything to people concerned about present struggles.

I think capitalism maintains itself (not solely obviously) through self mockery in the media. Terms like credit-crunch are used, which through linguistical standards kind of gives the impression that it's just a blip on the radar, nothing to worry about. Capitalism manages to maintain its image of being 'cool' or historically adept, so we are shown adverts for useless commodities between news reports on how fucked the economy is (even the BBC is guilty of this). In essence we are given information that capitalism is still working and life is still going on as usual. When it does actually have an effect on people's pockets we come home to see an advert on how Tesco is making things cheaper so we can survive. This wealth of information is too much for people to believe that a change must occur. Even if a change is brought about it's usually through voting for a 'giant douche' or a 'turd sandwich' (to borrow the phrase from Southpark). I don't know how to get the message across to people that something can be done when they think the answers lie elsewhere. I've become a bit pessimistic about it.

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Tree wrote:
I'm not trying to be antagonistic but what do you mean by 'historical examples of successful struggles'? I can't really think of anything that would contribute towards the present culture in terms of offering hope.

there's all sorts of things; the occupied factory movement in argentina in response to economic collapse, 'self-reduction' in italy in the 70s to counter rising prices, any successful strike etc. it's a pertinent question though, as today the talk of the office has been how we literally can't go on sinking deeper into our overdrafts - my workmate's off to the bank at lunch time to try and extend their overdraft limit. at the moment there seems a tendency to say 'well did i really need that holiday/tv?' etc, but as more people chipped in it's obvious we're all in the same boat (except the bosses of course). we've discussed trying to get pay rises, but we're all aware it's a shit time to change jobs and thus what a weak position we're in if they call our bluff...

in terms of your pessimism, i think we have to start from discussing our immediate material circumstances - everyone's starting to feel the pinch. whether the media paints this as a temporary blip or not, if we can agree they are becoming intolerable the next question is; well what are we going to do about it? the first answers tend to be 'i'm going to look for another job' or 'i'm just going to have to cut back' - but as i said above as it becomes clear we're all in the same boat it should be easier to suggest collective solutions to what is clearly a collective problem.

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Edit: My post crossed the JosephKs, I was also replying to Tree.

I'm not so sure. Firstly, if you work in the banking or finance sector you'll almost certainly be dealing directly with the current crisis or, at the very least, being affected by it. I doubt the 40,000 that are going to be laid off by Lloyds-HBOS are going to care much about cheaper food from Tesco's because it's unlikely they'll be able to afford it anyway. As the crisis spreads, the immediacy of it will impinge more and more on people's everyday consciousness.

The advantage of this situation is that this isn't simply a "recession". It's becoming clearer, even to casual observers, that something systemic is happening even if, for the moment, it's seen as "greedy bankers" fucking it up for the rest of us. Nonetheless, the fact that this ideology is being pushed shows that the bourgeoisie can't avoid including a class perspective, however distorted this may be.

In my view, communist propaganda needs to attack the question at a number of levels. Firstly, we need to show the historic origins of the crisis - this isn't just a blip but part of a process that's been underway since the 70s. We need to draw out a clear perspective of why such a crisis was inevitable and why getting rid of capitalism is the only way to prevent such disasters happening again. I think decadence is a key concept here, but even without it the point still stands.

We also need to remind the working class of its own revolutionary history - and that does mean Russia 1905, 1917, Germany 1918, etc. But it also means the more recent struggles, the CPE in France, the recent big movements in Germany, Vigo in Spain, etc. Again we need to demonstrate that not only are these forms of struggle the most effective in terms of immediate defence against the demands of capital but also that they contain the seeds of a revolutionary form that will end the demands of capital forever. In other words, we must show the "red thread" between the Kiel Mutiny in 1918 and the mass assemblies in Vigo a year or so ago.

Revolutionaries, class conscious minorities, whatever you want to call them, have a crucial role here.

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I'm of the feeling that ideology has had such an affect on people that they don't think of themselves as working class. I know that sounds ridiculous, but divides are still strong and (I think) being implicitly maintained by the media. Northern Ireland is the classic example of workers being divided along pseudo religious grounds. We're currently seeing this in other places too, the kind of 'us and them' attitude. People are generally content to sit within these boundaries and thus don't relate to classic struggles that are historically related to them. How do you think we can reclaim the image of the working class as a group amongst themselves?

From my experience talking to workmates about class struggles generally just ended in them laughing about it, and how they're getting a fair wage for their effort. Talking to people about Marx and how their labour is being exploited has the ironic tendency to alienate yourself from other people. As for the people losing their jobs, is it actually going to do anything? I can't see them all going, "oh, hang on, capitalisms the problem". I'm actually annoying myself with my own cynicism.

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Tree wrote:
I'm of the feeling that ideology has had such an affect on people that they don't think of themselves as working class... How do you think we can reclaim the image of the working class as a group amongst themselves?

it's true that identifying as 'working class' is very out of fashion, however certainly in my experience people have no problem seeing the blatant us and them at work when bosses are paying themselves large bonuses whilst denying us pay rises on the grounds that times are hard.

i mean talking about marx or 1905 in a situation where there's no collective struggle at all will probably come off as mental, but talking about the actual content of marx (i.e. how they want us to work more for less etc) and talking about more obviously relevant/recent examples requires a lot fewer leaps of abstraction.

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I don't dispute that most workers have extreme difficulty in seeing themselves as a class. However, the fact remains that they are a class and ultimately it is that reality that defines its existence, consciousness and actions.

The bourgeois ideology you talk about (quite rightly) has its origins in the material power of the bourgeoisie. It is only as that material power is shaken that the intellectual and ideological power is weakened and thus the influence of bourgeois ideology over the working class is weakened. At these times, there is the possibility that the working class can make a complete rupture with it.

This is why crisis is an essential precondition for revolution. It is only when the power of capitalism is visibly shaken, when it is clear that the ruling class can no longer manage society in a way compatible with the interests of society or even its own interests. In a situation where the whole bourgeoisie is visibly shaken over the turn of the crisis and their increasing lack of control over its evolution, their unfitness to rule becomes manifest.

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Joseph K. wrote:
there's all sorts of things; the occupied factory movement in argentina in response to economic collapse

My understanding of the factory occupation/self-management 'movement' in Argentina is that it was one of many forces that helped to restart the economy.

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i'm not sure it did. i mean, ultimately it was continuing commodity production within a (crisis-ridden) capitalist economy, but ultimately everything short of communism contributes to the restarting of capitalism (i.e. workers feeding themselves, ready to resume wage labour). i'm not actually that up on the details of argentina though, i wasn't aware the factory occupations were widespread enough to have contributed to kick-starting the economy?