Does Anarchism Have To Mean Anti-Religion?

170 posts / 0 new
Last post
Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Jan 9 2017 17:18

Jay, no reputable anarchist organization subscribes to the sort of individualist anarchist you're advocating here. I'd, at the very least, suggest you acquaint yourself with the politics of this site - and, indeed, basically the entirety of the modern anarchist movement:

http://libcom.org/library/libertarian-communism-introduction

If not, I'd expect you'll continue to get the piss taken out of you.

Serge Forward's picture
Serge Forward
Offline
Joined: 14-01-04
Jan 9 2017 19:35

Not just the modern anarchist movement but the historic too. The "anarchism" of which Jay writes does not and never did exist outside the realms of individualist or bourgeois liberal fantasy. The main trend of the anarchist movement, wherever it has ever had any significance, has always been social, class struggle and communist.

JayDee
Offline
Joined: 7-01-17
Jan 9 2017 20:09

Society is nothing but a colony of people playing barrel of monkeys and circle jerks. Bashing anybody that's not playing the game. If you are true to your religion then please, go against it and let those children out of your dungeons you sick freaks. You believe that because Jesus died for your sins that your hypocrisy is justified but yet you condemn you sick freaks. You believe that just because a man commits murder that he deserves the death penalty because your society says so yet you don't even know anything about the man yourself you sick freaks. Judgements based on assumptions I can't call a sin because I am not religious but I can pray to rightiousness that the weight lies in the pain of your death. You deem me stupid because you ask yourself, well how can someone pray and not be religious? I pray that, I don't pray to. I follow no idol.
My belief is in what is right. I noticed in my first post, I had stated that my beliefs are uninfluenced. I was wrong and should be hung in your eyes. Truth is, I have studied all religions including atheism and politics. Most religions follow a specific slogan because it sounds right, the rest of that same religion is all contradictory to its slogan. Now please, again, I already know what I am to you, you say man is entitled to his own thoughts and beliefs but you know as well as I that, that does not go without judgement. Most judgements are based on assumption. He believes this so he must be that. In your eyes, I am merely the name your heart desires to call me. I have yet to recieve a response regarding my thoughts. Me being this and that has nothing to do with the topic. Try understanding the messege without the urge in your Christian heart to attack the messenger.

JayDee
Offline
Joined: 7-01-17
Jan 9 2017 20:12

Thank you Serge. The only real response without judgement.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Jan 9 2017 20:19

JayDee. Are you a teenager? Serious question. If you are, people may be bothered to engage with you more. And your views would make more sense. If not... well, sorry to say that you have a juvenile and solipsistic understanding of anarchism.

JayDee
Offline
Joined: 7-01-17
Jan 9 2017 20:31

It is the absence of social hierarchy, with no one imposing their will on another by force or threat of punishment. Anarchy means "without a ruler", or "without government". Government here is meant in the sense of "governing over" and forcing compliance through coercion.

The Nexxus Anarchy Page.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/dward/classes/anarchy/finalprojects/flores/anarchy.html

JayDee
Offline
Joined: 7-01-17
Jan 9 2017 20:40

I only got into the discussion of other topics due to the fact that the only responses I have recieved were, and still are, doing nothing but undermining the thoughts and beliefs of another. The true anarchist does not deny a person's right to do so, but will rebel against the latter.

JayDee
Offline
Joined: 7-01-17
Jan 9 2017 20:45

I am not trying to push my beliefs upon another. I am merely stating my own thoughts and beliefs towards what I believe to be true anarchism.

JayDee
Offline
Joined: 7-01-17
Jan 9 2017 21:10

Khawaga, I am not asking for your thoughts about me. I thought that this threads intent was to answer the questoners thoughts regarding Anarchy and anti-religion. And not towards the person giving their own interpretation to the question asked. Now obviously you should look at the mentality of your own responses and ask yourself, am I wise enough to answer such a question, or am I just gonna bash the person that doesn't respond in the way I feel it should be responded to.

Auld-bod's picture
Auld-bod
Offline
Joined: 9-07-11
Jan 9 2017 21:36

JayDee #160

After that last egocentric whinge, a wee snatch of Burns springs to mind:

O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!

Chilli Sauce's picture
Chilli Sauce
Offline
Joined: 5-10-07
Jan 9 2017 21:43

Turing test?

JayDee
Offline
Joined: 7-01-17
Jan 9 2017 21:51

I'm sorry guys. I had no idea I had the power to turn this thread into being all about me. Now if you can get back to your focus on the question at hand, I would really like to read only opinions regarding the subject. Thank you.

potrokin
Offline
Joined: 28-05-16
Jan 10 2017 21:40

God as an idea was deeply repulsive to Bakunin and flew in the face of reason and rational thought. He saw the idea of God as a human creation, an absolute abstraction without reality, content and determination. In other words it is absolute nothingness. God and religion are both human fantasies, a distortion of life on earth. The belief in God destroys human solidarity, liberty, co-operation and community. Human love becomes transferred to the nonsense of love for something which does not exist and into religious charity. For Bakunin, God and religion were the enemies of all oppressed classes and indeed their role was to contribute to exploitation and oppression in concert with the ruling class. The acceptance of the idea of God was for Bakunin the denial of humanity, freedom and justice. He argued that if God is truth, justice and infinite life then humanity must be “falsehood, gross injustice and death”.[5] Bakunin further argues that by accepting the existence of God humanity becomes enslaved, and that because humanity is capable of intelligence, justice and freedom, it follows that there is no such thing as God.

Religions for Bakunin are the result of human fantasy in which heaven is a mirage. Once installed, God naturally becomes the master to whom people bow down. Of course, Bakunin recognized that God does not exist and that religion is a human form of organising and controlling the masses. He proposed that whoever takes it upon themselves to become prophet, revealer or priest (God’s representative on earth) becomes the teacher and leader. From that role religious leaders end up “commanding, directing and governing over earthly existence”.[5] So, slaves of God become slaves of the Church and State insofar as the latter is given the blessing of organised religion. The organised religions of the world, particularly Christianity, have always allied themselves with domination and even persecuted religions discipline their followers, laying the ground for a new tyranny. All religions, but again especially Christianity, were in the words of Bakunin “founded on blood”.[5] How many innocent victims have been tortured and murdered in the name of the religion of love and forgiveness? How many clerics, even today, asks Bakunin, support capital punishment?

Bakunin believed that God does not exist, and that this is good enough reason for opposing religion. However he also states that religions must be combated because they create an intellectual slavery which, in alliance with the state, results in political and social slavery. Religions demoralise and corrupt people. They destroy reason and “fill people’s minds with absurdities”.[5] Religion is an ancient form of ideology which, in alliance with the state, can be reduced to a simple statement – ‘We fool you, we rule you.’

Basic Bakunin, the Anarchist Federation.

Other anti-religious anarchist figures/thinkers:

William Godwin, Peter Kropotkin, Pierre Joseph Proudhon "God is evil", Errico Malatesta, Carlo Cafiero (active with the National Secular Society when he visited England), Elisee Reclus, Sebastian Faure (wrote Twelve Proofs of God's Inexistence), Johan Most (wrote an article titled The God Pestilence), Voltairine DeCleyre, Emma Goldman: "Anarchism has declared war on the pernicious influences which have so far prevented the harmonious blending of individual and social instincts, the individual and society. Religion, the dominion of the human mind; Property, the dominion of human needs; and Government, the dominion of human conduct, represent the stronghold of man's enslavement and all the horrors it entails"
.and Li Shizeng who stated at the 1922 Beijing Atheist's League "Religion is intrinsically old and corrupt, history has passed it by. . . why are we of the twentieth century even debating this nonsense from primitive ages?"

Auld-bod's picture
Auld-bod
Offline
Joined: 9-07-11
Jan 10 2017 21:52

Some years ago I was helping support a banner which carried the likeness of Bakunin and a passing comrade suggested that even anarchist have their gods. It is ironic that while ridiculing the notion of an ‘all knowing god’ the name of Bakunin is often evoked as an ‘all seeing eye’. Unfortunately Bakunin could be a bit of a dick. He was flawed, as we all are flawed.

If you wish to undermine the notion of god use reason and tackle specific aspects relevant to today’s believer. Historical attacks simply bypass the subject. Select the ‘best’ theology to deconstruct. By that I mean not some concocted ‘Aunt Sally’. Best to let the dead bury the dead.

potrokin
Offline
Joined: 28-05-16
Jan 10 2017 22:13
Auld-bod wrote:
Some years ago I was helping support a banner which carried the likeness of Bakunin and a passing comrade suggested that even anarchist have their gods. It is ironic that while ridiculing the notion of an ‘all knowing god’ the name of Bakunin is often evoked as an ‘all seeing eye’. Unfortunately Bakunin could be a bit of a dick. He was flawed, as we all are flawed.

If you wish to undermine the notion of god use reason and tackle specific aspects relevant to today’s believer. Historical attacks simply bypass the subject. Select the ‘best’ theology to deconstruct. By that I mean not some concocted ‘Aunt Sally’. Best to let the dead bury the dead.

If you are referring to what I just posted, I was just trying to illustrate that all the original anarchist thinkers (including Bakunin, because he seems to have been the one to say the most on the topic of religion) known about were anti-religious, they were all atheists who wanted a secular society and hoped religion would die out.

Auld-bod's picture
Auld-bod
Offline
Joined: 9-07-11
Jan 10 2017 22:33

Potrokin #166

I think history is important, as it supplies us with a context for our beliefs. Your post simply reminded me that we have to select our arguments carefully. The religious people I know ‘disown’ the past. The problem is the ‘need’ some people have to believe. Change will bring about change, as I think our beliefs are mainly shaped by our material existence.

Edit:
Leo Tolstoy was an anarchist and a Christian.

zugzwang
Offline
Joined: 25-11-16
Jan 10 2017 22:41

Didn't Proudhon hold some sexist views as well? I don't know; I'm more inclined to take only some of these thinkers' contributions and to disregard the more questionable ones. I don't like this indiscriminate hostility toward anyone holding religious beliefs, however unsound they may be. Not everyone is a religious fanatic, going around screaming at people; some people's religious beliefs take on a more personal nature. There can be intelligent, reasonable people who are still religious; Chris Hedges comes to mind. As long as they're not going around imposing their beliefs on others and they allow others to not share their beliefs, then I see no problem with anarchism and religion coexisting.

potrokin
Offline
Joined: 28-05-16
Jan 10 2017 23:03
Auld-bod wrote:
Potrokin #166

I think history is important, as it supplies us with a context for our beliefs. Your post simply reminded me that we have to select our arguments carefully. The religious people I know ‘disown’ the past. The problem is the ‘need’ some people have to believe. Change will bring about change, as I think our beliefs are mainly shaped by our material existence.

Edit:
Leo Tolstoy was an anarchist and a Christian.

I think you make good point, however I still think what Bakunin and co wrote very relevant even if religious people you know don't.

potrokin
Offline
Joined: 28-05-16
Jan 10 2017 23:15

This guy, though not an anarchist and not someone whose politics I agree with, also made some very good, and more recent points about religion, including in this vid. Wether it is actually worthwhile putting in effort with many believers though is another matter. However, I haven't always been an atheist so I hope thats not the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tw3i3k4zCs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA55jGyq2C8