EU - Roads to Travel

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Mike Harman
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May 28 2019 20:45
AF wrote:
The EU is a godawful capitalist institution, but the leave campaign is dominated by racism and patriotism. Remaining would be a more secure option for our migrant friends and comrades, but staying means our continued involvement the EU border.

One problem here. Bringing it up because the EU border is regularly brought up by lexiters, but it's a red herring IMO. I can't find the article now, but about a year ago, May indicated continued UK contributions to policing the med (there are navy vessels there now) post-Brexit. So the UK could very well continue to contribute just as much as it does now.

On the other hand, there are all kinds of remain and soft-remain anti-immigration lines, like reforming free movement, using the 'emergency break' (which Paul Mason is a massive fan of) - existing stuff like deportations of EU migrants who are street homeless and etc.

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R Totale
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May 29 2019 07:03
Mike Harman wrote:
One problem here. Bringing it up because the EU border is regularly brought up by lexiters, but it's a red herring IMO. I can't find the article now, but about a year ago, May indicated continued UK contributions to policing the med (there are navy vessels there now) post-Brexit. So the UK could very well continue to contribute just as much as it does now.

Not sure it makes sense to call it a red herring - certainly May's version of Brexit would mean continued involvement in the EU border, but the whole starting point of Lexit is, rightly or wrongly, that the tory vision of Brexit isn't the only one possible. You can disagree with that, but if you grant them that starting point then it follows that an independent UK could have a different relationship to the EU border.
The EU border thing is usually a weak argument because in the case of the Embery/Glasman wing of Lexit, they're no more internationalist than May is, and for anyone who genuinely supports an internationalist/open borders Lexit, that's a bit of a fantasy position on a par with wanting to get the SPGB into power between now and October, but I don't think either of those objections apply to anarchist communists pointing out that both capitalist options are bad and involve continued repression against migrants.

Mike Harman
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May 29 2019 09:13
R Totale wrote:
The EU border thing is usually a weak argument because in the case of the Embery/Glasman wing of Lexit, they're no more internationalist than May is

Yes I should have made this explicit in the comment. The Embery/Glasman wing bring it up as whataboutism against people who criticise their shitty nationalist/anti-immigrant positions when there's no indication when it comes to it they'd reduce the UK's involvement if they were ever in a position to do so.

Spikymike
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Jun 11 2019 15:53

In addition to the contribution from Chris Gilligan in the video discussion referenced in the earlier post #89 well worth viewing Chris has also contributed this panel discussion text with more detail in relation to the Irish Border issue here;
www.insurgentnotes.com/2019/06/brexit-immigration-controls-and-the-borde...

Maclane Horton
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Jul 26 2019 18:19

Doing the Two Step

Boris is not in an impossible situation. He can do Brexit, but he will have to do it in two steps
.
Step one: leave the EU, but stay in the single market (customs union) for goods. OK. Not what his right wing wants, but wait for it, you will see, they will get their heart’s desire in “step two.”

So then, for starters it’s out of the EU for everything except goods. No common market for services. No more rights of EU citizens to reside or work in UK. Although, in order to abide by the Good Friday Agreement, an open border with the Irish Republic for goods and visitors will be necessary. Perhaps a maximum for visitors of 6 months residence per calendar year, otherwise registration and official permission would be introduced.

Step two: riding on the wave of popularity Boris calls a general election with the slogan, “A MAJORITY TO FINISH THE JOB.” And he gets his clear majority. And now he has all the time he needs. Britain is not in the EU. No one is looking over his shoulder. Months pass. A long time in politics. Administrations change and options change. A new deal has always been on the table and now Britain would be negotiating from a position of strength. The negotiation may be piecemeal (lots of fun arguing over details) but European business doesn’t want WTO rules and European business will get its way.

So there it is. Of course one isn’t happy doing what Boris wants. But in this case what Boris wants is what we should want. He is nicely getting Britain out of the multi-national power point that is the European Union. A small but very useful step for anti-capitalism. Dance the two step with Boris, but don’t let him know you’re leading.

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jef costello
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Jul 26 2019 19:09
Maclane Horton wrote:
Doing the Two Step

Boris is not in an impossible situation. He can do Brexit, but he will have to do it in two steps
.
Step one: leave the EU, but stay in the single market (customs union) for goods. OK. Not what his right wing wants, but wait for it, you will see, they will get their heart’s desire in “step two.”

So then, for starters it’s out of the EU for everything except goods. No common market for services. No more rights of EU citizens to reside or work in UK. Although, in order to abide by the Good Friday Agreement, an open border with the Irish Republic for goods and visitors will be necessary. Perhaps a maximum for visitors of 6 months residence per calendar year, otherwise registration and official permission would be introduced.

Step two: riding on the wave of popularity Boris calls a general election with the slogan, “A MAJORITY TO FINISH THE JOB.” And he gets his clear majority. And now he has all the time he needs. Britain is not in the EU. No one is looking over his shoulder. Months pass. A long time in politics. Administrations change and options change. A new deal has always been on the table and now Britain would be negotiating from a position of strength. The negotiation may be piecemeal (lots of fun arguing over details) but European business doesn’t want WTO rules and European business will get its way.

So there it is. Of course one isn’t happy doing what Boris wants. But in this case what Boris wants is what we should want. He is nicely getting Britain out of the multi-national power point that is the European Union. A small but very useful step for anti-capitalism. Dance the two step with Boris, but don’t let him know you’re leading.

I am not sure your first step is viable and your seconf makes no sense. If the EU will be under pressure from business, then imagine the pressure Johnson will be under. Also quitting the EU will not help anyone, except maybe people who set up commpanies or consultanciees to manage it.

radicalgraffiti
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Jul 26 2019 20:37
Maclane Horton wrote:
.
Step one: leave the EU, but stay in the single market (customs union) for goods. OK. Not what his right wing wants, but wait for it, you will see, they will get their heart’s desire in “step two.”

So then, for starters it’s out of the EU for everything except goods. No common market for services. No more rights of EU citizens to reside or work in UK. Although, in order to abide by the Good Friday Agreement, an open border with the Irish Republic for goods and visitors will be necessary. Perhaps a maximum for visitors of 6 months residence per calendar year, otherwise registration and official permission would be introduced.

lol no
"The European Single Market, Internal Market or Common Market is a single market which seeks to guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour – the "four freedoms" – within the European Union (EU)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#Four_freedoms

these are not separable, states cant pick and chose which they what, its all or nothing, the eu has been very clear about that

you cant have an open boarder and a limit to how much people can cross it

Maclane Horton wrote:
A small but very useful step for anti-capitalism. Dance the two step with Boris, but don’t let him know you’re leading.

this is bullshit, its a positive step for fascism, your not leading anything, your trying to justify being lead by the far right

ajjohnstone
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Joined: 20-04-08
Jul 27 2019 01:24

From the frying pan to the fire.

If Brexit was suppose to free us from the strangulation of EU regulatory red tape, then Boris appears intent upon changing our masters to the voracious appetites of the Americans and accept all the lower healthy and safety standards, they will seek to impose in any trading agreement.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49135045

And will the UK survive?

Indyref2 for Scotland according to Sturgeon

The possibility of a united Ireland according to the Irish PM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/26/brexit-deadlock-as-no-1...

Mike Harman
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Jul 27 2019 09:37
radicalgraffiti wrote:
Maclane Horton wrote:
.
Step one: leave the EU, but stay in the single market (customs union) for goods. OK. Not what his right wing wants, but wait for it, you will see, they will get their heart’s desire in “step two.”

lol no
"The European Single Market, Internal Market or Common Market is a single market which seeks to guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour – the "four freedoms" – within the European Union (EU)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#Four_freedoms

these are not separable, states cant pick and chose which they what, its all or nothing, the eu has been very clear about that

you cant have an open boarder and a limit to how much people can cross it

This has been at the centre of Labour's 'a customs union' hedge.

It could be EEA membership (four freedoms), but it could also be a Turkey-style deal (free movement for goods, but nothing else including services). However Turkey's arrangement was supposed to be a temporary thing on the way towards EU membership. This is the difference between 'the customs union' and 'a customs union'. I hate that I know this sad

Maclane Horton
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Jul 28 2019 11:24

Entangled in Brexit

Confusion over principle. Confusion over tactics. Confusion reigns. I, frankly, don’t see why. Maybe it’s my simple mind.

Boris and his allies want Brexit because it will give them even more opportunity to exploit their workers and consumers. As for me and my allies, hard left brexiteers, few as we are. We see it as an opportunity for anti-capitalist advances. Without the danger of direct interference from the devious hand of that agent of the multinationals the EU.

Now Jeff Costello thinks it makes no sense to leave the official EU, but at the same time stay in the single market until a new deal can be arranged. And the reason he thinks it makes no sense is, he says, because all the movers and shakers in Britain think leaving the single market will not help them.

To my mind this is mistaken. A great many of top management think, as Boris keeps telling them, that they will be better able to exploit us once there is a new deal free of the single market.

However, here and now, inside the EU, Boris just can’t fix the new deal. Why not? For why - because of the bloody-minded attitude of the Irish government and its EU allies. But after Britain officially leaves the EU, except for the single market, and holds fresh elections so Boris can have his own big majority, why then it will be a new ball game.

And time will pass and then under renewed threat of the dread NO DEAL, the tough minded Irish and their EU apparatchiks will start to crumble. Plain sailing ahead for the good ship Boris.

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Red Marriott
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Jul 28 2019 17:36
MHorton wrote:
Boris and his allies want Brexit because it will give them even more opportunity to exploit their workers and consumers. As for me and my allies, hard left brexiteers, few as we are. We see it as an opportunity for anti-capitalist advances.

Some contradiction here; or is it simply you think workers haven't been sufficiently exploited yet to make them anti-capitalist? And what anti-capitalist advances have been won by large sections of the working class being pro-brexit for the most nationalist & anti-immigration reasons?

Quote:
A great many of top management think, as Boris keeps telling them, that they will be better able to exploit us once there is a new deal free of the single market. ...
holds fresh elections so Boris can have his own big majority ....
Plain sailing ahead for the good ship Boris.

And those predictions are the pre-conditions from which anti-capitalism will grow?

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jef costello
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Jul 28 2019 19:42
Maclane Horton wrote:
Now Jeff Costello thinks it makes no sense to leave the official EU, but at the same time stay in the single market until a new deal can be arranged. And the reason he thinks it makes no sense is, he says, because all the movers and shakers in Britain think leaving the single market will not help them.

To my mind this is mistaken. A great many of top management think, as Boris keeps telling them, that they will be better able to exploit us once there is a new deal free of the single market.

However, here and now, inside the EU, Boris just can’t fix the new deal. Why not? For why - because of the bloody-minded attitude of the Irish government and its EU allies. But after Britain officially leaves the EU, except for the single market, and holds fresh elections so Boris can have his own big majority, why then it will be a new ball game.

And time will pass and then under renewed threat of the dread NO DEAL, the tough minded Irish and their EU apparatchiks will start to crumble. Plain sailing ahead for the good ship Boris.

You read a lot into two sentences. Your understanding of what I said is as shaky as your understanding of brexit.

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R Totale
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Jul 28 2019 20:25
Maclane Horton wrote:
Boris and his allies want Brexit because it will give them even more opportunity to exploit their workers and consumers. As for me and my allies, hard left brexiteers, few as we are. We see it as an opportunity for anti-capitalist advances. Without the danger of direct interference from the devious hand of that agent of the multinationals the EU.

What forces do you see winning those advances? Where are the strong working-class anti-capitalist movements that you see winning major victories in the next few months or so?

Quote:
However, here and now, inside the EU, Boris just can’t fix the new deal. Why not? For why - because of the bloody-minded attitude of the Irish government and its EU allies. But after Britain officially leaves the EU, except for the single market, and holds fresh elections so Boris can have his own big majority, why then it will be a new ball game.

And time will pass and then under renewed threat of the dread NO DEAL, the tough minded Irish and their EU apparatchiks will start to crumble. Plain sailing ahead for the good ship Boris.

In these elections, will you be voting tory to help ensure that Johnson (I don't know why anyone writes as if they were on first-name terms with the arsehole) gets the big majority he needs to help put his/your plan into action? And if not, why not?