DONATE NOW TO HELP UPGRADE LIBCOM.ORG

Exiting the Vampire Castle

126 posts / 0 new
Last post
commieprincess's picture
commieprincess
Offline
Joined: 26-08-07
Jun 21 2015 22:16

Just to clarify, Mr jolly do you stand by this?

Quote:
Seems it's gobby confident middle class that dominate meetings. Gender always seems rather coincidental.

Because I think that's where the issue is. Yes going to private school, having wealthier parents, having a posh voice probably all do give people more confidence to speak in meetings but so does being a man and one doesn't really trump the other. Besides, I don't know what you mean by middle class? Seems like a pretty sloppy category to me. you saying posh voiced women aren't affected by the patriarchy? I'm guessing you don't think that but that's kind of what it sounds like.

Mr. Jolly's picture
Mr. Jolly
Offline
Joined: 28-04-11
Jun 23 2015 08:35

Yes there is a middle class, maybe people are blind to it as they are not affected by it. And yes the further up the socio-economic hierarchy you go the more power you possess. The middle classes are inculcated with confidence, a sense of entitlement, better schooling (even in the state sector) better educational outcomes than their working class peers. Irrespective of gender, sexuality or race. Economic background still has a deep impact on an individuals life chances. The experience of patriachy is determined in quite significant ways by social class. Social class on here seems often to be quite the dirty word, one that can be pushed aside with 'prolier than thou' sneers. I understand that in jettisoning the working class/middle class dichotomy, in part a bid to rid itself of the narcissism of the Class War characters (fair enough) but preferring the we are the 99% kind of two class system preferred by the marxists is a useful bit of rhetoric to rid any discourse to do with class is rather disconcerting. The fight against capital is not a fight with the middle class, obviously that not my gig. But rather a need for thoses who are from privilaged backgrounds some awareness that they do dominate and exclude.

Mr. Jolly's picture
Mr. Jolly
Offline
Joined: 28-04-11
Jun 23 2015 08:30

So when you are thrown together into a political meeting (not a workplace of people from roughly the same socioeconomic background) you are going to get more confident outspoken individuals from privileged backgrounds that are gifted with confidence and cock sureness.

D's picture
D
Offline
Joined: 8-06-08
Jun 23 2015 11:26

The thing is no one, at least from what I've seen, has denied that social class also has an influence on things like which type of people dominate meetings etc, all the points you raise above are valid but when you say "Gender always seems rather coincidental" it certainly sounds like you are saying gender is not an issue in regards to dominating meetings, only social class is.

Why can't they both be issues?

no1
Offline
Joined: 3-12-07
Jun 23 2015 12:16
Mr. Jolly wrote:
Yes there is a middle class, maybe people are blind to it as they are not affected by it. And yes the further up the socio-economic hierarchy you go the more power you possess.

IMO it's better to think of this in relation to the education system than class, especially in the UK where the education system doesn't even bother to pretend to give people equal opportunities. The public school system was set up to train an administrator class for the British Empire, and still now a lot of people come out of it with an underlying attitude that they are destined to govern the rest of us. Whereas one of the main lessons to learn in other schools is to shut up, sit still and do as you're told.

Of course there's more to it, and the education system is tightly linked to social class. But class is inherent to capitalism and is pretty hard to shift within it. While the education system is a lot more changeable : there are quite big differences between countries - in some places the education system is more egalitarian ; access to a and the role of higher education has changed loads in the past 2-3 decades ; also while any progressive and emancipatory aspects of education have come under sustained attack, struggles to improve it would stand a good chance of being successful.

Mr. Jolly wrote:
The middle classes are inculcated with confidence, a sense of entitlement, better schooling (even in the state sector) better educational outcomes than their working class peers. Irrespective of gender, sexuality or race. Economic background still has a deep impact on an individuals life chances. The experience of patriachy is determined in quite significant ways by social class. Social class on here seems often to be quite the dirty word, one that can be pushed aside with 'prolier than thou' sneers. I understand that in jettisoning the working class/middle class dichotomy, in part a bid to rid itself of the narcissism of the Class War characters (fair enough) but preferring the we are the 99% kind of two class system preferred by the marxists is a useful bit of rhetoric to rid any discourse to do with class is rather disconcerting. The fight against capital is not a fight with the middle class, obviously that not my gig. But rather a need for thoses who are from privilaged backgrounds some awareness that they do dominate and exclude.

I agree that there's a problem here, and it bothered me that it didn't figure in internal Solfed discussions of the impact of gender and race on internal culture. I think part of the problem is that there isn't a good term for what we're talking about, 'social class' or 'working class/middle class' would have worked much better half a century ago, and 'classism' is a horrible word.
But it seems quite confused to say that "Gender always seems rather coincidental", that the thing you're describing is "Irrespective of gender, sexuality or race", and that "The experience of patriarchy is determined in quite significant ways by social class". If only someone came up with a theory of how all these things intersect!