female gender pay gap? does it exist and how to work it out?

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LiberArchie
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Jun 15 2015 10:35
female gender pay gap? does it exist and how to work it out?

hi, first post and new to forum

so the 'gender pay gap' , does this really exist in a Western nation and why would socialists/anarchists even care what a top CEO female earns anyhow?

and at the bottom end of the chain, I'm not sure this really exists anyway

so what is the perspective on this on this site? thanks

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Khawaga
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Jun 15 2015 14:59

Abolish the wage.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 16 2015 00:12

The thing is, the gender wage gap doesn't just exist between male and female CEOs, it cuts across all jobs - including the low-wage jobs where a discrepancy in pay has the most detrimental impact.

So while Khawaga's right that ultimately we want to abolish the wage system altogether, anarchists should and do fight for equal pay for equal work.

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 02:06

can you give an example of this in a developed country because I have NEVER seen this in real life

for instance, can you show me a job advert that advertises a dual pay rate, one for men and one for women - I've never seen it!

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 16 2015 02:12

Yeah, they don't advertise that sort of thing. It's about systematic inequalities in which women are offered less as opening salaries and then given smaller raises and raises less often.

As for evidence, perhaps try google instead of someone believing you never seeing a job advertising explicating stating an employer's intention to discriminate somehow constitutes useful evidence.

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 02:19

How about at the lower end of the scale though, where salaries and raises are not part of the equation - ie: unskilled work, these jobs usually only offer hourly rates, is there a gender gap there? I don't think there is.

Telling me to 'look at google', is not an answer by the way.

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Fnordie
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Jun 16 2015 03:44

There was definitely a gender gap in pay at Jimmy John's, where I worked a low-wage fast food job for a long time. Everyone was hired at $7.25/hr, but some men would eventually be given raises of up to $9/hr, whereas no woman ever made above $8.25.

It's probably even more noticeable at higher-skilled working class jobs. On average, a male nurse in the US makes more than $5000 more per year than a female nurse.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 16 2015 07:07

Yes it exists. From a recent government report, the gender pay gap is positive across all professions, though varies in size from about 6% to 30%:

Plus many more women than men are in part time work in most professions:

In terms of how you work it out, the UK government bases it on the ASHE (Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings), and divides (non-bonus) earnings by hours to get an hourly rate (controlling for differences in hours worked). As with any statistical calculation there's assumptions and omissions and methodological choices, but I don't think the results are particularly controversial.

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Noah Fence
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Jun 16 2015 07:19

Liber, I may be wrong so I apologise in advance if I am, but I suspect you have a broader point about sexual inequality to make. Am I correct and if I am why don't you just come out with it?

kurekmurek
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Jun 16 2015 08:11
Quote:
so the 'gender pay gap' , does this really exist in a Western nation and why would socialists/anarchists even care what a top CEO female earns anyhow?

Bullshit! To write something like this, one needs to believe either 1)most of the women are CEOs (or paid in similar levels/terms) in a capitalist society, or 2) there is no difference between a female and a male worker (even sometimes while doing the same job)? (and plus needs to believe: everybody in a western nation is doing great in terms of income.) Both are obviously wrong and anyone can easily check the facts about this if he/she wishes to care. So this comes back to the point Webby makes: (in my paraphrasing) "why you do not speak your mind, but try to hide between manipulative sentences that are obviously bullshit"?"

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 08:01
Fnordie wrote:
There was definitely a gender gap in pay at Jimmy John's, where I worked a low-wage fast food job for a long time. Everyone was hired at $7.25/hr, but some men would eventually be given raises of up to $9/hr, whereas no woman ever made above $8.25.

how long ago was this? and how about tipping, it's fairly obvious that the better looking women make for more in tips than the average man, I've experienced this for sure

and at my last job, the women always got the prime (and extra) hrs - it was a customer facing role , but guess what, no complaints there from the pseudo-socialists!

Quote:
It's probably even more noticeable at higher-skilled working class jobs. On average, a male nurse in the US makes more than $5000 more per year than a female nurse.

does he work harder, longer, worse shifts or something though?

and as for skilled manual work, this just tends to attract more men, eg: welding , carpentry etc..and they may well have better physical skills etc...

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 08:08
Webby wrote:
Liber, I may be wrong so I apologise in advance if I am, but I suspect you have a broader point about sexual inequality to make. Am I correct and if I am why don't you just come out with it?

sure:

1. Why are socialists so concerned about what higher earners make when they should be focusing on the working class?

2. Why are socialists of the modern day so concerned with identity politics, when they should be focusing on the works of Karl Marx?

3. Why are anarchists,socialists, feminists, Greens so obsessed with the myth of the 'oppression of the partriarchy' in the Western word, when there is real oppression going on daily in the 3rd World. IOW: why do all these overpriveleged, entitled, bourgeosie,liberal fucks complain about nothing when real women and men have to suffer genital mutilation, rape, murder etc..out in the developing world?

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Cooked
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Jun 16 2015 08:10
Joseph Kay wrote:
Yes it exists. From a recent government report

You are being way to kind doing that sort of work for him/her.

LiberArchie where are you coming from where you can demand a personal response to the most stupid questions.

*Liber looks out the window. The earth is flat from where I'm standing. Telling me to google Copernicus is not an answer.*

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 16 2015 08:15

True. Obvious ulterior motive is obvious.

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 08:18

you can see the pay gap increases as women get older, this is because many of them marry, have children etc..thus miss out on career progression

at the younger end it's more or less similar, but as anyone who's worked at the bottom of the food chain will know, the really crappy jobs are nearly always done by men

kurekmurek
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Jun 16 2015 08:26

LiberArchie

Quote:
Why are anarchists,socialists, feminists, Greens so obsessed with the myth of the 'oppression of the partriarchy' in the Western word, when there is real oppression going on daily in the 3rd World. IOW: why do all these overpriveleged, entitled, bourgeosie,liberal fucks complain about nothing when real women and men have to suffer genital mutilation, rape, murder etc..out in the developing world?

More bullshit! Why don't you read some socialist/anarchist/feminist classics yourself? If you did you wont be speaking this ignorant. But I assume you are not a reader type as you even fail to go and read the above document. Like capitalism, patriarchy is a universal phenomena. In the world we live in -on average- women are paid less, tend to do jobs that are worse in terms of insurance/security/status and and face more or extra bullying/sexual threads in workplaces compared to men.

Also your so called "opinion" just ignores a basic fact. Even if the conditions of women is better in western countries this is not because western countries were better in terms of culture or anything (or becuase they are developed "whatever this means"). It is because women's movements did formed there and fight the fight and gained what you now say as "overpriveleged, entitled, bourgeosie,liberal fucks" and similar rights (well of course this issue can not be thought independent of changes in capitalist formation in respective societies) Anyway the ultimate point is that it is because of who you try to slander, women win a relative victory against the likes of you, you moron. Moreover patriarchy were never successfully removed from any real socialist experiment, so it is an ongoing need for any socialist project. Otherwise you still end up with opression and exploitation of women in a socialist setting (which is still worse) Go read some history.

kurekmurek
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Jun 16 2015 08:28
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anyone who's worked at the bottom of the food chain will know, the really crappy jobs are nearly always done by men

Can we remove this guy now? This is just pathetic

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Noah Fence
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Jun 16 2015 08:47

We seem to have an inordinate amount of bro-socialists and ancaps around at the moment. I just wonder, as things are supposed to come in threes, when is the Trot attack going to get underway?

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Fnordie
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Jun 16 2015 10:49
LiberArchie wrote:
Fnordie wrote:
There was definitely a gender gap in pay at Jimmy John's, where I worked a low-wage fast food job for a long time. Everyone was hired at $7.25/hr, but some men would eventually be given raises of up to $9/hr, whereas no woman ever made above $8.25.

how long ago was this?

I was there until February this year. (I quit after my hours got slashed in retaliation for organizing, incidentally)

Quote:
and how about tipping, it's fairly obvious that the better looking women make for more in tips than the average man, I've experienced this for sure

Fuck you.

Quote:
and at my last job, the women always got the prime (and extra) hrs - it was a customer facing role , but guess what, no complaints there from the pseudo-socialists!

Fuck you.

Quote:
does he work harder, longer, worse shifts or something though?

No. That's the salary differential for people doing exactly the same job. Also, fuck you.

edit -

LiberArchie wrote:
and as for skilled manual work, this just tends to attract more men, eg: welding , carpentry etc..and they may well have better physical skills etc...

Cute. You want to talk about gendered work? Two of the fastest growing working class occupations where I live are "housekeeper" and "nurse". Those jobs have historically been done by women, and are still performed mostly by women. We've witnessed a feminization of the working class, especially at the lowest strata of the class. However, more and more men are starting to do those jobs, and they consistently make more money than women in the same position.

ASPE research brief wrote:
Almost 60 percent of all low-wage workers are female compared to only 44 percent of higher-wage workers.

source

Which is to say: fuck you.

Fleur
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Jun 16 2015 10:29

LiberArchie have we danced before? You sound awfully familiar...

wojtek
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Jun 16 2015 10:40
Quote:
1. ...they should be focusing on the [male] working class?

talk about identity politics

where's omen?

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 10:43
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
. It is because women's movements did formed there and fight the fight and gained what you now say as "overpriveleged, entitled, bourgeosie,liberal fucks" and similar rights (well of course this issue can not be thought independent of changes in capitalist formation in respective societies)

So when a highly paid western woman complains that she's 'oppressed by the patriarchy' you'll automatically take her side? And how about her Romanian cleaner who she pays a pittance to - is there some kind of feminist bond there do you think (add sarcasm icon). How about the guy in the office who gets paid a pittance, what about him?
Whatever happened to wage equality? Now it's all just fake socialist attempts at empowerment

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 10:44
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
Quote:
anyone who's worked at the bottom of the food chain will know, the really crappy jobs are nearly always done by men

Can we remove this guy now? This is just pathetic

I guess you've never done that kind of work then

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 10:49
wojtek wrote:
Quote:
1. ...they should be focusing on the [male] working class?

talk about identity politics
?

No, it's the opposite Sparky.

Socialism is about class struggle, not capitalist feminism which most on this thread are spouting.

kurekmurek
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Jun 16 2015 10:50

LiberArchie

Quote:
kurremkarmerruk wrote:
Quote:
anyone who's worked at the bottom of the food chain will know, the really crappy jobs are nearly always done by men
Can we remove this guy now? This is just pathetic

I guess you've never done that kind of work then

Quote:
why would socialists/anarchists even care what a top CEO female earns anyhow?

And you are a CEO I assume? And you see anarchists/socialists/feminists trying to defend female CEOs all the time, though you are the righteous person.

wojtek
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Jun 16 2015 10:51
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Socialism is about class struggle, not capitalist feminism which most on this thread are spouting.

No they don't, liberal feminism is not the same as w/c feminism you big clown.

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 10:53
Fnordie wrote:
Cute. You want to talk about gendered work? Two of the fastest growing working class occupations where I live are "housekeeper" and "nurse"

And if the same number of men and women apply, what do you think the ratio of successful male/female applicants will be. Let me tell you, Far more WOMEN will get the job. Now tell me about equality

Quote:
Which is to say: fuck you.

Nice to see that you can debate in an adult manner, keep it up! LOL

LiberArchie
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Jun 16 2015 10:57

And still - No-one has shown me yet a job advert with dual pay rate.

I wonder why?

Actually yes, I have seen this for real, in a developing country - and you guys just care for the overpriveleged white woman of the West , yeah right...........

kurekmurek
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Jun 16 2015 10:58

LiberArchie

Quote:
So when a highly paid western woman complains that she's 'oppressed by the patriarchy' you'll automatically take her side? And how about her Romanian cleaner who she pays a pittance to - is there some kind of feminist bond there do you think (add sarcasm icon). How about the guy in the office who gets paid a pittance, what about him?

Quote:
Why are anarchists,socialists, feminists, Greens so obsessed with the myth of the 'oppression of the partriarchy' in the Western word, when there is real oppression going on daily in the 3rd World. IOW: why do all these overpriveleged, entitled, bourgeosie,liberal fucks complain about nothing when real women and men have to suffer genital mutilation, rape, murder etc..out in the developing world?

No worry, the poor guy from the office is safe now as you are here teaching him if the "overpriveleged, entitled, bourgeosie,liberal fucks" in other words women was not there, his socialist bros would pay him equal wage. Fantastic class analysis you made right there (add sarcasm icon) grin

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Fnordie
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Jun 16 2015 10:58

In the US, the really crappy jobs are statistically more likely to be done by women. The numbers support this, and anecdotally, in my 8 years of organizing in the service sector it was always just obvious.

If you want to call yourself a fucking socialist you could at least bother to learn some basic facts and draw materialist conclusions.

kurekmurek
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Jun 16 2015 11:05

LiberArchie

Quote:
And still - No-one has shown me yet a job advert with dual pay rate.

Maybe it is because discrimination based on sexuality is illegal? Similarly, maybe because it is considered illegal, thanks to fight of feminists you despise of, you smartass ? Do you also see no ads about slavery nowadays right? Think about it. And after that think on two more issues
1) If human slavery is totally ended (including in the west) (including various forms of human trafficing etc...)
2) Why western "developed" countries have some better standards for women?