female gender pay gap? does it exist and how to work it out?

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radicalgraffiti
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Jun 16 2015 11:04

the person making the more extensionally claim, that thousands of years of patriarchy have vanished with out trace, and that every women who claims to have experienced discrimination is lying (at least in the west), is the one responsible for producing evidence to support their claim

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Fnordie
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Jun 16 2015 11:06
LiberArchie wrote:
And if the same number of men and women apply, what do you think the ratio of successful male/female applicants will be. Let me tell you, Far more WOMEN will get the job. Now tell me about equality

Yes, I agree there are more women than men in low-wage jobs. Today the working class has a majority of women. The men in those jobs still get paid more.

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Nice to see that you can debate in an adult manner, keep it up! LOL

Eat my juicy asshole you fucking cretin.

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Noah Fence
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Jun 16 2015 11:41
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Eat my juicy asshole you fucking cretin.

That's no way for a lady to speak!

Edit: Sorry, that was all a typo. What I meant to say was...

Jesus fucking fuck! How many more of these fucking wanksticks with terminal man-centric myopia are waiting in the wings to dump their bitter, resentful and plain daft horse manure on us?

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Fnordie
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Jun 16 2015 11:48

lol not a lady, i'm a cis-man

pretty sure all the wanksticks are the same person. or else an mra board is raiding us, i guess

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Auld-bod
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Jun 16 2015 16:09

Chilli Sauce #3

‘So while Khawaga's right that ultimately we want to abolish the wage system altogether, anarchists should and do fight for equal pay for equal work.’

A few days ago on the T.V. Germaine Greer pointed out that when the unions adopted the slogan ‘equal pay for equal work’ all that happened was a further delineation of certain ‘jobs for men’ and ‘women’s jobs’.
As long as women are expected to be the primary child carers then they will be excluded from ‘equal pay’. The whole ‘child care’ thing is set up to make women fail. And most guys don’t give a flying f**k.
I say, fight for equal pay and ridicule notions of equal work – how many men can honestly say they pull their weight at child care, housework and all the rest of the sh*t most women have to put up with?

EDIT:
‘carers’ not ‘careers’ - doh!

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Ed
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Jun 16 2015 11:56

Lol at how LiberArchie has just COMPLETELY ignored Joseph Kay's first point with all the stats and graphs about how the gender pay gap cuts across all grades of work, not just CEOs.. seriously, not even a little bit of engagement! "Well, you can prove anything with facts"..

Cooked wrote:
*Liber looks out the window. The earth is flat from where I'm standing. Telling me to google Copernicus is not an answer.*

I like this game: *Liber looks out the window. It's cold where I live right now. Telling me to google global warming is not an answer.*

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Noah Fence
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Jun 16 2015 12:02
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lol not a lady, i'm a cis-man

Just as well, potty mouth!

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boozemonarchy
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Jun 16 2015 13:28
Ed wrote:
Lol at how LiberArchie has just COMPLETELY ignored Joseph Kay's first point with all the stats and graphs about how the gender pay gap cuts across all grades of work, not just CEOs.. seriously, not even a little bit of engagement!

*Liber looks in the mirror.

I'm a total fuck right now.

Succinctly describing the answer to my question is not the answer.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 16 2015 13:21
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Why are anarchists,socialists, feminists, Greens so obsessed with the myth of the 'oppression of the partriarchy' in the Western word

And there it is!

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Chilli Sauce
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Jun 16 2015 13:24
LiberArchie wrote:
you can see the pay gap increases as women get older, this is because many of them marry, have children etc..thus miss out on career progression

And why the fuck is an anarchist concerned with "career progression" or "how hard someone works"?

Or, Jesus fucking Christ, justifying unequal pay based pregnancy - what are you, one of the characters from Mad Men?

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AndrewF
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Jun 16 2015 13:31
LiberArchie wrote:
And still - No-one has shown me yet a job advert with dual pay rate.

I wonder why?

Because one of the gains of the struggles of the 70s is that such blatant discrimination is generally illegal. The pay gap has shrunk as a result but still exists as an institutional level because of a couple of factors
1. Jobs that are mostly done by women are paid less on average than equivalent jobs mostly done by men
2. Men are more likely than women to be promoted and/or be hired and retained longer in jobs that have pay scales

Not typing that for you as your brosocialist motivations are shining through but for any curious readers that might imagine your repetition of the question meant there wasn't an answer to it

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commieprincess
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Jun 16 2015 15:05

Liber, you crusty old sun-baked dog turd, why don't you get your victim-complex self the fuck off these forums? You're a creepy, woman-hating knob-end and you're not fucking welcome here.

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Khawaga
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Jun 16 2015 15:31

And "poof", the libtard/brocialist did his vanishing act.

But what is up with all these bigots trying to import gawker/reddit politics? Fucks claiming to be all about the class struggle but who are just hopelessly obsessed with identity politics, so much that that is actually the only coherent (albeit messed up) politics they have. Talk about slave mentality!

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Noah Fence
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Jun 16 2015 15:35
commieprincess wrote:
Liber, you crusty old sun-baked dog turd, why don't you get your victim-complex self the fuck off these forums? You're a creepy, woman-hating knob-end and you're not fucking welcome here.

I'm sick to the back teeth of all these nice fluffy live and let live posts from unicorn hugging, let's all hold hands in a circle and love each other better hippies. Keep letting people off lightly like this CP and it will soon be game over for Libcom. What you gonna post next? Cupcake recipes?

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gram negative
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Jun 16 2015 16:07

are we sure that isn't BJJ/etc.?

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Khawaga
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Jun 16 2015 16:28

It could be, but sadly there are enough bigots in the world to go around for everyone.

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Mr. Jolly
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Jun 16 2015 16:50

Fuck me everyone has spat their dummies out. If your going to engage with people who hold a view that is pretty widespread, then argue the points, or whats the point? Play the ball and all that.

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commieprincess
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Jun 16 2015 16:57

Mr Jolly, people did argue the points and shockingly the misogynistic troll isn't interested.

radicalgraffiti
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Jun 16 2015 17:00

engaging with this bullshit just encores them to see it as valid

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Mr. Jolly
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Jun 16 2015 17:02

Joseph kay and a few others responded, but quickly descended full on bitch fest. Now Ive read and reread it he's not making much sense and I disagree with what he is saying, but just throwing personal insults is not clever. iirc Webby and a few other here spouted similar stuff when they first arrived.

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commieprincess
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Jun 16 2015 17:05

Webby - I could share my cupcake recipe. But it's bitter. Bitter like my feminism. So bitter...

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commieprincess
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Jun 16 2015 17:11

This isn't someone who is here to engage, this is someone who is here to feel like the big man by talking about how feminists are whining and entitled. This person hates women.

Saying dodgy or questionable things, or having developing ideas and getting things wrong is so so absolutely acceptable. Repeatedly returning to a forum having been banned several times to troll women is not.

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Mr. Jolly
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Jun 16 2015 17:19

I would have pointed out for example, the Leeds Bin strike in 2009. When equal pay saw wage reductions for men on par with the womens wage. Here is a clear example of gender differences in 'lower paid' employment and further than that a certain cynical logic put in place to make savings on wages by an employer under the banner of equality. We could have continued to give other concrete examples....

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Noah Fence
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Jun 16 2015 17:25

Mr Jolly, I'm not sure I did post similar stuff to this although I no doubt spouted some right old bollocks. When I did I was given the benefit of the doubt for a short while as per this thread and then I got it roundly and deservedly in the arse. The difference is though, that I was genuinely open minded and I'm still here whereas this guy and others come here with an agenda and insidiously work it into almost every thread they post on. They repeat their accusations about us, ignore any evidence to the contrary and gradually ramp up their posting to pure trollism (if that's a word!). So fuck 'em says I!
Anyhow, look at the different treatment the pure, dyed in the wool ancap Lucror got. So different because it was clear he was here for a debate whereas with these other wankers it's clear they are here to, well, be wankers.

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Steven.
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Jun 16 2015 18:19
Mr. Jolly wrote:
I would have pointed out for example, the Leeds Bin strike in 2009. When equal pay saw wage reductions for men on par with the womens wage. Here is a clear example of gender differences in 'lower paid' employment and further than that a certain cynical logic put in place to make savings on wages by an employer under the banner of equality. We could have continued to give other concrete examples....

This was the classic example at least in the public sector. Manual predominantly men's jobs, graded the same level of complexity and scale as women's jobs often attracted antisocial hours enhancements and overtime pay, whereas predominantly women's jobs didn't. "Bin men" compared with "dinner ladies", being a key example.

Of course some authorities, like Leeds, tried to resolve the issue by lowering the pay of the predominantly male workers (although they did have to make massive back payments to workers, including men, in the predominantly female roles, like Fall Back on here, for example), instead of increasing the wages of the female workers. But that doesn't mean there wasn't a pay gap.

Liber, a.k.a. Brazilian Jujitsu, has been banned again. If he wants to rant about his issues with "first world women" libcom is not the website to do it on.

Funnily enough he even points to a further reason for the pay gap: that many women have babies, and so have to take time off. And of course for biological reasons only women can give birth, and for social/economic reasons women bear the majority of responsibility for child care as well, which disadvantages them in the workplace, particularly with regard to pay increases and promotions. This article is useful on this topic: https://libcom.org/library/communization-abolition-gender

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Khawaga
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Jun 16 2015 18:45

Damn, so it turned out to be BJJ again? I think that Libcom's got an official nemisis in him.

Webby wrote:
Anyhow, look at the different treatment the pure, dyed in the wool ancap Lucror got. So different because it was clear he was here for a debate whereas with these other wankers it's clear they are here to, well, be wankers.

Yes, it's like black and white. Mr. Jolly have you read how basically nice folks have been to the an-cap Lucror? People (including me) are actually gushing over how refreshing it is that he is not only open to learn, but actually seems to mean it as well.

Fleur
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Jun 16 2015 23:23

Khawaga wrote:

Quote:
Damn, so it turned out to be BJJ again? I think that Libcom's got an official nemisis in him.

How about we get a gofundme started to actually send him to Rojava? See how far he'll get spouting his crap around women with actual guns?
On second thoughts, best not. I wouldn't like to inflict the annoying little scrote on anyone else.

radicalgraffiti
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Jun 17 2015 01:09
Fleur wrote:
Khawaga wrote:

Quote:
Damn, so it turned out to be BJJ again? I think that Libcom's got an official nemisis in him.

How about we get a gofundme started to actually send him to Rojava? See how far he'll get spouting his crap around women with actual guns?
On second thoughts, best not. I wouldn't like to inflict the annoying little scrote on anyone else.

it would probably turn out like this
http://www.channel4.com/news/michael-enright-ypg-syria-kurdish-fighters-...

http://www.albawaba.com/loop/actor-michael-enright-deemed-biggest-pos-yp...

kurekmurek
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Jun 17 2015 08:12

radicalgraffiti fantastic info grin I did not know about this, you should shared this when we were directly discussing about women and YPG with this guy in another thread.

Fleur

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How about we get a gofundme started to actually send him to Rojava?

Also may I speculate a bit more on this? Well I recently shared some notes from a speech about a panel related to Rojava revolution. Anyway the first speaker, a male reporter from Sendika org who went to Kobane mentioned his memory with YPJ women. He says he was shocked after they speak with women and made some remarks about their unified struggle, he get the answer: "No, you are a male after all, we will do our revolution also against you". He said then he get assured about the revolutionary convictions of these women after that.

Well maybe he did annoyed YPJ people, but did not told us anyway but the point of this story is this: Contrary to the popular belief (of some MRAs) the successful movements in the "orient" also seem to have a sort of essentializing approach. Well this is also very evident in the writings of Ocalan. This is in my opinion in contrast to non-essentialist contemporary western feminisms. So actually if the these MRAs had any understanding of society or history, they could see that beyond all positive discrimination it is the non-essentialist feminism that they can reach and understand, possibly unlike feminism they glorify and romanticize that is going on in the undeveloped world (well as they like to call islam, genital mutaliation etc...) and which is more strict against gender compromises grin

Well of course the essentalist and biological reductionist overtones of such feminist movements can be debateable. It nevertheless helps in my opinion to form a women political subject that is in a fight versus feudal/tribal/capitalist imperatives.

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plasmatelly
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Jun 18 2015 21:34

The cleaners parity struggle wasn't just confined to one area - it was national. Basically it was a national council joint agreement problem; women workers doing exactly the same job were paid less than their male counterparts. But that is only half the story - unions (and overwhelming Unison) sided with the bosses (in this case the councils) paying lip service to the workers whilst secretly bricking it that councils like Birmingham went bankrupt. I have first hand experience of the union convenor back then warning other trades to avoid talking to solicitors (and named them by name) that had taken the case on by women disaffected by Unison's bullshit. Unison sided with the boss by making a deal to reimburse the workers the money they were owed by cutting a deal based on what the councils were prepared to pay - as opposed to what they were owed (which would include interest). The pressure that Unison and their gimpy mates from other business unions put on those who opted for the full amount was nothing less than bullying, and it gave me pleasure to hear that some of the people I worked with won the full amount and interest, whilst sadly others stuck it out with Unison and got stitched up.